deep2evans Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 jesus here we go again...why now do you bring this up???hes already signed, hes good, i like him, but lets grow up and not pretend our guys are better than they really are. Heres my take on all the childish points I hear promoting SJ as a"true 1" 1. back to back 1000 yard seasons! yippee f ing do! i guess reed moulds and evans all sucked then. Oh and steve largent who never had a 1000 yard season once i think. 1000 yards is no big deal it usually has to do with being injured or not and being a #1 target, which SJ definitely was. how bout a 1500 yard season like the real number 1 guys in the league? 2.Schooled Revis. yes he did for less than 100 yards and what, 1 TD? and a huge drop, oh and we lost the game, what a clutch number one he is. 3. He played good despite being the only real threat...thats so chicken vs egg, HE GOT ALL THE BALLS thrown his way, he was the number 1 read and had many more that he dropped or didnt get close to for being too slow. all those chances and still only had 70 something catches, thats weak. Id like to see how many balls hed get if we did have another threat, I think alot less if he got targeted less, which he would. Stevie is a true #2, why? hes slowish, average size, less than average hands, and immature oh and not clutch. Yes he gets open and yes he shows flashes, im not against him, but get off his jock already and lets call a duck a duck. Other big drops along with big penalties are the sign of a number 2 OR 3 OR 4 RECIEVER, or even a 7th round guy. When he lines up across from a real number 1 (floyd i hope) we will all see him flourish, as hell be more open and get more YAC. But most here think thats a myth, another threat could never possibly draw coverage away from someone. next year (if we draft floyd or blackmon)he will have more yards per catch but less catches IMO. like a true #2 haha, what a joke. amongst all your other condescending bull ****, you managed to make my point for me. you know how many players had 1500 receiving yards last year? Three. Three !@#$ing players. So I guess that means there are 3 #1 WRs in the NFL then right? If anything, Stevie's ability to hit 1000 yards with no #2 to speak of, and a somewhat erratic QB is quite incredible.
loserlovers Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 haha, what a joke. amongst all your other condescending bull ****, you managed to make my point for me. you know how many players had 1500 receiving yards last year? Three. Three !@#$ing players. So I guess that means there are 3 #1 WRs in the NFL then right? If anything, Stevie's ability to hit 1000 yards with no #2 to speak of, and a somewhat erratic QB is quite incredible. "hahahahhaha" <----- stupid, anyway, every year there are a 3 or 4 different recievers who get close to or above 1500 yards, my point is, when stevie can do that just once, then maybe we could consider him a true 1, like say 15 or so other guys in the NFL, not 3. and being the only target is still no reason not to get 1000, its not like no one else caught the ball on this team. we ran a spread and threw him about 50 slants, wow! such production. who couldnt get a 1000 if they had been targeted so many times in a season for underneath stuff. and what about all my other points? you just ignore 99% of what ive said and then argue 1 small thing?, and even regarding that your still wrong. The NFL has 31 starting RB's, does that make them all premier guys? id say 15 or so are average and just the starter by default, I think "true 1" means a guy that is clearly the best guy on the team, as well as most any other team he would be put on. I think around 10 guys other than Calvin Johnson could go to almost any team and be the guy, SJ would be the number 2 on about 20 teams in this league if he were traded. so how did I make your point again? do you have anything inteligent to say besides HARR HARR HARRR you made my point...duhhhhhh" ? go ahead name the teams johnson would be the clear cut 1 on if traded there.
Pirate Angel Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I dont get why people think stevie johnson isnt a number 1 receiver. correct me if im wrong but he is the only bills receiver to have back to back 1000 yard seasons and only receiver to own revis island and that is in his first two years of being a starter but people still seem to think he is a number 2 receiver dont really get it #1 OR #2 doesn't matter, Both are on the field pretty much the same amount of snaps. The way a defense matches up and game plans to a specific player will determine who is actually the #1 from week to week. One Receiver may be bigger and more physical allowing him to have more success against a smaller defensive back field so the D will either adjust to provide help in coverage allowing more opportunities for the other receiver, and vice versa if the other receiver can get behind defensive that are more susceptible to the deep ball. You need to good receivers to create these problems. Whoever is listed as a #1 or a #2 is just for paper.
deep2evans Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 go ahead name the teams johnson would be the clear cut 1 on if traded there. miami, cleveland, indy, jax, denver, oakland, san diego, washington, minnesota, san fran, seattle. so in other words, plenty for him to be considered a #1 WR. it's hardly debatable.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) Is Levitre a true #1 offensive guard? Sheeeesh, will this topic ever die? miami, cleveland, indy, jax, denver, oakland, san diego, washington, minnesota, san fran, seattle. so in other words, plenty for him to be considered a #1 WR. it's hardly debatable. He wouldnt start for oak and IMO min, den, ind, sd, was, cle, mia, sea have a top wr that he would not be a guaranteed upgrade over. Edited April 15, 2012 by over 20 years of fanhood
The Cincinnati Kid Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Number 1 Wide Receivers lead their team in yards and catches. Its actually a pretty simple formula. Stevie had led his team in yards and catches for the last 2 seasons. So by my logic, he has been a number WR for 2 seasons.
John from Riverside Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I am erasing my first response to this as it probably violates TOS Stevie is a number 1.....and a valuable member of this team. Glad we have him....that is all I am going to say to keep myself out of trouble
NoSaint Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) miami, cleveland, indy, jax, denver, oakland, san diego, washington, minnesota, san fran, seattle. so in other words, plenty for him to be considered a #1 WR. it's hardly debatable. Kind of a silly debate overall but if I had to put a number on him it'd be 16-20. He's a #1 receiver much like fitz is a starting qb. He's good, but an upgrade would be welcome if it came along. Not that you must get that guy immediately, but not that you avoid adding competition when available. Edited April 15, 2012 by NoSaint
The Cincinnati Kid Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Kind of a silly debate overall but if I had to put a number on him it'd be 16-20. He's a #1 receiver much like fitz is a starting qb. He's good, but an upgrade would be welcome if it came along. Not that you must get that guy immediately, but not that you avoid adding competition when available. Great Post. This is something logical to add to this thread as well as all the ones about Fitz. Completely agree. Well said.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) Kind of a silly debate overall but if I had to put a number on him it'd be 16-20. He's a #1 receiver much like fitz is a starting qb. He's good, but an upgrade would be welcome if it came along. Not that you must get that guy immediately, but not that you avoid adding competition when available. While i think he is middle of the pack myself, he is probably upper middle of the pack. I havent looked at the stats but i would bet anything that in the last 2 years there are not more 10-11 WRs with a better aggregate total of catches, yards and TDs than Stevie Johnson. And this is with average QBing, average at best OL play and not a lot of high level WRs around him, let alone the injuries. And these were the only two years he has played. Granted, I am a huge believer in stats not telling the whole story, but just watching him continually produce, play hurt, make spectacular catches,block, get open and get in the endzone, to me he has produced in the upper half of the mid level Wrs in the league. Edited April 15, 2012 by Kelly the Dog
loserlovers Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) miami, cleveland, indy, jax, denver, oakland, san diego, washington, minnesota, san fran, seattle. so in other words, plenty for him to be considered a #1 WR. it's hardly debatable. well you just agreed with me then, and didnt refute any of my other points i noticed, I said on 20 teams SJ would be the clear number 2, then you named 11 where he would be the clear #1, but you also had to pick the teams with the worst WR corps, which doesnt mean stevies a "true" #1, it just means hed be the number one by default on the teams with SH*^%y receivers. and lets all stop pretending the term "true 1" doesnt exist. If it didnt, we wouldnt be having this argument. A "true 1" means a top talent guy that would flourish with any system and any QB. it means hes a combination of 1.hands 2.size and 3.speed and also being clutch and savy. Stevie has the savy and a little of the size part. Hes not fast and definitly not clutch, his hands are suspect too. who can even argue that isnt the cold hard truth? While i think he is middle of the pack myself, he is probably upper middle of the pack. I havent looked at the stats but i would bet anything that in the last 2 years there are not more 10-11 WRs with a better aggregate total of catches, yards and TDs than Stevie Johnson. And this is with average QBing, average at best OL play and not a lot of high level WRs around him, let alone the injuries. And these were the only two years he has played. Granted, I am a huge believer in stats not telling the whole story, but just watching him continually produce, play hurt, make spectacular catches,block, get open and get in the endzone, to me he has produced in the upper half of the mid level Wrs in the league. what spectacular catches? this is the part the stats really dont tell, SJ has good stats but i never see SJ "go up and get it" or flat out burn people. I see alot of slants and crosses, possession type stuff. hes also great after the catch but I have yet to see him make some "spectacular catches" which is why Ive never been sold on him as a top level guy. I think hes making a living off being a highly unorthodox route runner and being strong enough to shed some tackles that raise his YPC. I dont see him doing the things other top WR do. Say going over the top of 2 defenders, blowing past the defense, or making toe tipping catches in the back of the endzone, to me thats "spectacular" Edited April 15, 2012 by loserlovers
NoSaint Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 While i think he is middle of the pack myself, he is probably upper middle of the pack. I havent looked at the stats but i would bet anything that in the last 2 years there are not more 10-11 WRs with a better aggregate total of catches, yards and TDs than Stevie Johnson. And this is with average QBing, average at best OL play and not a lot of high level WRs around him, let alone the injuries. And these were the only two years he has played. Granted, I am a huge believer in stats not telling the whole story, but just watching him continually produce, play hurt, make spectacular catches,block, get open and get in the endzone, to me he has produced in the upper half of the mid level Wrs in the league. Could be a little higher. I'd still say teens at best, without lining names up. The flip side is we run a spread, pass heavy offense and he's clearly our top target - as much as he has some mitagating issues, you could also say those touches and yards must go somewhere. WR is a tricky one to rank though - depends on so many pieces, so many have off field or attitude issues.... After you run through the Johnson, johnson, Jackson, Jackson, fitz, Jennings, white, Green, Cruz, nicks, Steve smith, welker, colston.... I think it gets a bit harder to call - britts more talented but I wouldn't touch him, bowe is prob 6 of one half dozen of the other, Mike Wallace is another young guy with boatloads of talent on the brink but short of established, dez Bryant's more talented but more drama, miles Austin? Thomas with manning replacing tebow has huuuuge potential I mean there's a bunch of other mid tier guys. But ultimately I think you get teens before you start bringing up his name to compare.
biglukes Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Is Levitre a true #1 offensive guard? Sheeeesh, will this topic ever die? He wouldnt start for oak and IMO min, den, ind, sd, was, cle, mia, sea have a top wr that he would not be a guaranteed upgrade over. You can't be serious right? There has to be some sarcasm that I'm missing here. Who on any of those teams beats out Stevie right now?
Booger Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 well you just agreed with me then, and didnt refute any of my other points i noticed, I said on 20 teams SJ would be the clear number 2, then you named 11 where he would be the clear #1, but you also had to pick the teams with the worst WR corps, which doesnt mean stevies a "true" #1, it just means hed be the number one by default on the teams with SH*^%y receivers. and lets all stop pretending the term "true 1" doesnt exist. If it didnt, we wouldnt be having this argument. A "true 1" means a top talent guy that would flourish with any system and any QB. it means hes a combination of 1.hands 2.size and 3.speed and also being clutch and savy. Stevie has the savy and a little of the size part. Hes not fast and definitly not clutch, his hands are suspect too. who can even argue that isnt the cold hard truth? what spectacular catches? this is the part the stats really dont tell, SJ has good stats but i never see SJ "go up and get it" or flat out burn people. I see alot of slants and crosses, possession type stuff. hes also great after the catch but I have yet to see him make some "spectacular catches" which is why Ive never been sold on him as a top level guy. I think hes making a living off being a highly unorthodox route runner and being strong enough to shed some tackles that raise his YPC. I dont see him doing the things other top WR do. Say going over the top of 2 defenders, blowing past the defense, or making toe tipping catches in the back of the endzone, to me thats "spectacular" Finally some people that see the light. I dont think that anyone does not admit that Stevie is a decent player. Plays above average but definately not the best since Andre Reed...not even close. Moulds blows Stevie out of the water. Actually, if you pull up a list of the top WR's in the league Stevie is ranked between 22 and 28...and if you go down that list with a clear, unbiased, mind you may even place him the same being Buffalo Bills fans. I actually think this goes WAY deeper than STEVIE JOHNSON...this goes to where Buffalo Fans need to stop overvaluing the players on the team and be honest with reality. Buffalo has filled a ton of holes and still has a bunch to fill. Just because Stevie has had 2 seasons with 1000 yards does not mean he is the answer at WR. He is limited in so many ways. A guy like MERRIMAN that is defended on this board has not made a difference in 5 or so seasons still is considered an ALL PRO player. He has done nothing for the Bills. The key here is to be honest in what the Bills have and where they need to improve. Stevie will be a fantastic #2 or to be fair a fantastic #1B....they need that #1 GO TO guy still....just as they need a QB that is capable of winning a Superbowl...A TE that produces consistantly up and down the field...LB's that can stop the run...etc... I believe most have pride in the players that the Bills have but you cannot let that pride blind you vs. reality and the quality that other teams produce. You defend a player that has cost the Bills through drop and penalties more games that he has won for the Bills. Tough to gage what games he has won, but he has cost them 2.
Booger Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I guess the best way to see this is to pull up a few sites and see who you would actually take before Stevie. A few guys the other night said its all about the STATS. If thats the case, here are a few links...go down the list and honestly ask yourself "would you really take Stevie over this guy".....most, if not all have him in the mid 20's...have a hard time disagreeing. 75 Catches, 1000 yards....19 players in 2011 ranked above him in yards...19 in TD's and 15 in receptions....he is fine...a little above a possession receiver...a low end #1 waiting in the wings for the true #1 to arrive to take the back seat (that is if you all want to see the playoffs) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/eric_mack/12/16/fantasy-football-watch-list/index.html http://www.fftoolbox.com/football/2012/fantasy-football-keeper-rankings.cfm?pos=WR
Kelly the Dog Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I guess the best way to see this is to pull up a few sites and see who you would actually take before Stevie. A few guys the other night said its all about the STATS. If thats the case, here are a few links...go down the list and honestly ask yourself "would you really take Stevie over this guy".....most, if not all have him in the mid 20's...have a hard time disagreeing. 75 Catches, 1000 yards....19 players in 2011 ranked above him in yards...19 in TD's and 15 in receptions....he is fine...a little above a possession receiver...a low end #1 waiting in the wings for the true #1 to arrive to take the back seat (that is if you all want to see the playoffs) http://sportsillustr...list/index.html http://www.fftoolbox...ings.cfm?pos=WR Take the two years he has played and he jumps up significantly, and would be a much better indication, IMO.
Booger Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Take the two years he has played and he jumps up significantly, and would be a much better indication, IMO. that is taking the two years he has played. That is based off of last years Stats...you know, when the Bills had one of the top offenses in the league?
Kelly the Dog Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 that is taking the two years he has played. That is based off of last years Stats...you know, when the Bills had one of the top offenses in the league? So when you look at a player and whether he is bad or good or great you only look at stats from his last year, and not his career, or not a couple or few years in a row? That is not s better indication? Just forget what he has done before and only his last year shows how good he is?
Booger Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 So when you look at a player and whether he is bad or good or great you only look at stats from his last year, and not his career, or not a couple or few years in a row? That is not s better indication? Just forget what he has done before and only his last year shows how good he is? He basically had the EXACT same stats the year before there Boss...would imagine that puts him in the same place...Personally I am a little more interested in what the player did LAST year vs. Previous years....you must be one of those MERRIMAN lovers...living in 2006
Kelly the Dog Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 He basically had the EXACT same stats the year before there Boss...would imagine that puts him in the same place...Personally I am a little more interested in what the player did LAST year vs. Previous years....you must be one of those MERRIMAN lovers...living in 2006 As I said before, if you look at his STATS from the two years he has played, his STATS are in the top ten in the league. There are not ten WRs in the entire league whose STATS are better than Steve Johnson. Of course, stats do not tell the whole story.
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