JohnC Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 There is no stadium debt--he never paid a penny for its construction or many expansions and upgrades since. Also, with 30-40 million a year in operating margin, there would be no need to take a loan for "signing bonuses". My understanding is that he does take out short term loans to pay for the bonuses. His finance people have structured an operation in which it is run on a cash/flow basis. You are correct that there is a $30-40 million operating margin but a lot of the profit money is made available at the end of the operating year. It wouldn't make business sense for Ralph to advance his own money when the operation can easily handle the miniscule bonus debt from his well oiled cash/flow. Ralph might not have much acumen for football but he does have it for business matters.
apuszczalowski Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Did they not just redo the entire Buffalo convention centre recently? i thought I hear on the radio that they did. Also, the larger events that someone mentioned could be held in a convention centre are already being held in the Arena downtown.
JohnC Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 All of the control and profit with little to none of the expenses. Say what you want about Mr. Wilson, but he sure got the politicians (and by extension, the tax payers) in the Buffalo area to bend over and take it up the ass with this deal. Well played Mr. Wilson, well played. Ralp Wilson has the leverage and he uses it. Some people consider him to be benevolent. I don't.
RTW2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 This is an excellent article about the dubious anture of the convention center business and how craven politicians foolishly keep asking for more. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204720204577126603702369654.html There is no stadium debt--he never paid a penny for its construction or many expansions and upgrades since. Also, with 30-40 million a year in operating margin, there would be no need to take a loan for "signing bonuses". Conventions don't use domed stadiums. The use multiroom facilities to handle large and small meetings/subgroups/demos/exhibits. I have been to conventions all over the country--never even heard of one involving a football stadium. Organizations that hold conventions have 2 major criteria: it has to be in a place that will maximize attendance and it has to have low costs/overhead (usually that means a non-union setting). Buffalo would fail on both of these accounts. Thanks for that info. If domed stadiums aren't used for conventions, then what exactly is any new domed stadium in Buffalo going to be used for? 7 or so Bills games per year. Concerts? Unlikely. The days of stadium concerts are over. Super Bowl? Keep dreaming. Lack of hotel rooms dooms this. NCAA Final Four/Regionals? Don't hold your breath for a Final Four, but Regionals are a possibility. However, the First Niagara Center has already hosted a few subregionals, and appears to be in the NCAA's rotation of sites, without a domed stadium. UB football? UB has its own on-campus 30K-seat stadium, and can't even come close to filling that. A Bowl game (Blizzard Bowl/ Niagara Bowl/ Buffalo Bowl)? There's too many of those now, plus any new bowl game will be relegated to lowest-tier status. Not a whole lot of revenue generated there, with the potential of being a money loser. What other events can be held in a dome that would attract out-of-town dollars? I'm hard-pressed to think of any. Monster truck rallies, anyone? If the future owner of the team wants a new playpen, fine. He/She/They can pay for it themselves, because I doubt it's gonna be used more than 10-20 times a year.
JohnC Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Thanks for that info. If domed stadiums aren't used for conventions, then what exactly is any new domed stadium in Buffalo going to be used for? 7 or so Bills games per year. Concerts? Unlikely. The days of stadium concerts are over. Super Bowl? Keep dreaming. Lack of hotel rooms dooms this. NCAA Final Four/Regionals? Don't hold your breath for a Final Four, but Regionals are a possibility. However, the First Niagara Center has already hosted a few subregionals, and appears to be in the NCAA's rotation of sites, without a domed stadium. UB football? UB has its own on-campus 30K-seat stadium, and can't even come close to filling that. A Bowl game (Blizzard Bowl/ Niagara Bowl/ Buffalo Bowl)? There's too many of those now, plus any new bowl game will be relegated to lowest-tier status. Not a whole lot of revenue generated there, with the potential of being a money loser. What other events can be held in a dome that would attract out-of-town dollars? I'm hard-pressed to think of any. Monster truck rallies, anyone? If the future owner of the team wants a new playpen, fine. He/She/They can pay for it themselves, because I doubt it's gonna be used more than 10-20 times a year. There is no financial way that the region could afford a new domed facility to mostly serve the Bills. As it stands no one knows what is going to happen after the 93 yr old owner passes. In my view the best option is to upgrade the Ralph the way the Kansas City Chiefs did with their facility. It wasn't a cheap proposition. It cost $375 for the county with a sizeable contribution from the Chiefs. Although it took three years to complete the Chiefs were able to play while the renovations went on, mostly offseason. The Chief stadium is similarly configured to the Ralph and the engineering company for both stadiums was the same. http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2010/9/13/1685792/kansas-city-chiefs-to-show-off-new Edited April 13, 2012 by JohnC
Kiwi Bills fan Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 I think you may have nailed it. This is just a ploy to take people's minds off of the $100+ million the taxpayers are about to be hit up for for RWS renos. It's pretty basic mind games. Get everyone worked up over a $1 billion stadium that of course is never going to happen anyway. Then when the RWS reno bill comes in, everyone says... "Well that's a lot less than $1 billion for a new building. Sounds like a good deal." Since this keeps coming up, I'll keep saying the same thing... Until the future ownership issues are resolved, taxpayers should ONLY pay the bare minimum needed to keep the stadium safe. The team has no real leverage. They have no where to move to now or in the next five years at least. BUF is not getting a new stadium and until the future ownership issue is addressed, the taxpayers should be investing only the bare minimum in RWS. It could be empty in a few years, so why put $100 million into it if you only need to spend $25 million to keep it safely operating as it currently exists?
PromoTheRobot Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 A Bowl game (Blizzard Bowl/ Niagara Bowl/ Buffalo Bowl)? There's too many of those now, plus any new bowl game will be relegated to lowest-tier status. Not a whole lot of revenue generated there, with the potential of being a money loser. No dome, no bowl game. PTR
RTW2012 Posted April 14, 2012 Posted April 14, 2012 No dome, no bowl game. PTR Yes, that was the point. And that a Buffalo bowl game would not be a good reason to build said dome.
Hammered a Lot Posted April 14, 2012 Posted April 14, 2012 It would be tough parking at Hammers and getting to the stadium. Darn right Mead. The talk about a downtown stadium by a no name radio guy looking for his 15 minutes of fame is dead. Buffalo can not handle the traffic for the arena crowds, how will they handle traffic for stadium crowd. By the way, a couple of years ago the area around the Ralph was rated second SAFEST in the NFL. Enough said.
Offside Number 76 Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 For those interested in the "big event" aspect of this discussion, an interview with Dottie Gallagher-Cohen in today's News provides some data and some perspective: http://www.buffalonews.com/business/article811878.ece
Buffalo_Stampede Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Ralp Wilson has the leverage and he uses it. Some people consider him to be benevolent. I don't. Obviously you know nothing about how these stadiums are paid for. Erie County has it good as well.
JohnC Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Obviously you know nothing about how these stadiums are paid for. Erie County has it good as well. From a financial standpoint how so? For the most part the public authorities where these recently built or refurbished stadiums are located receive a large contribution for the costs by the teams playing in the respective facilities. That hasn't been the case for a Ralph Wilson owned football franchise. Edited April 16, 2012 by JohnC
Offside Number 76 Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 From a financial standpoint how so? For the most part the public authorities where these recently built or refurbished stadiums are located receive a large contribution for the costs by the teams playing in the respective facilities. That hasn't been the case for a Ralph Wilson owned football franchise. What do the Bills pay in rent, anyway?
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 What do the Bills pay in rent, anyway? $685/month plus water and sewer. Erie County pays for the gas and electric.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 "Smaller markets, Vrooman said, often pick up a greater share of the cost because the market can't "generate the cash flow necessary for private funding." Despite that, he said, even teams in smaller markets have paid for a larger portion of construction costs in recent years compared with deals put together in the mid-1990s amidst an expansion of the league that saw teams move from city to city. In Kansas City, for example, the Chiefs paid $125 million toward the stadium retrofit completed in 2010. The creation of an NFL loan program that uses shared revenue to finance a portion of construction projects has also helped ease demands at the negotiating table throughout the league, Vrooman said." http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/article811352.ece?twobillsdrive
mob16151 Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 To me this seems to be the best way to handle the Bills stadium situation http://www.icri.org/awards/2005/soldier_field_stadium.asp http://www.bearshistory.com/lore/soldierfieldhistory.aspx Basically I'd like to see the Ralph, become like Soldier field someday.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 To me this seems to be the best way to handle the Bills stadium situation http://www.icri.org/...eld_stadium.asp http://www.bearshist...eldhistory.aspx Basically I'd like to see the Ralph, become like Soldier field someday. Based on the story I linked just one before your post, that will never happen. In addition there are numerous huge differences between Soldier Field and "The Ralph." First of all, Soldier is an historic structure, The Ralph isn't. Secondly Soldier is on Lake Shore Drive well within the Chicago city limits. The Ralph is in a second ring suburb. Thirdly based on the story I linked, the ONLY viable option being considered by the Bills and Erie County is the "renovation" which will be in the $200 million range. Soldier Field on the other hand was almost completely rebuilt 10 years ago at an estimated cost of $587 million. Due to cost overruns, it ended up costing much more than that. Russ Brandon said in the linked article that they estimated the cost of a new Bills stadium would be at least $800 million. Perhaps someday the Bills will do what Chicago did with Soldier Field… build a new stadium within the confines of an existing one. But if that happens, it won't be any time soon.
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