BuffaloWest Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Fixed. Up to date is irrelevant in my opinion. It just needs to be viable. Here's the thing... The guy who put forth this proposition is a NOBODY..just some f'ing hack who works at a radio station no one ever even heard of! He has a homeboy who sits on the city counsel so he was allowed to trot up there and propose some ill conceived concept...These are not smart people by the way. There is no way in HELL that the city, state or taxpayers of WNY are paying for a billion dollar stadium in downtown Buffalo. Lets just hope an agreement can be made to come up with $200 million and upgrade The Ralph like KC and Green Bay did. There is nothing wrong with the Ralph's design, or that it is in OP...just needs some serious updating. How is this even a story? How is the news giving this guy a second of airtime? Give me an F'ing break with this!
apuszczalowski Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Again, IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT WE WANT, IT MATTERS WHAT THE NEXT OWNER WANTS AND WHAT WILL BRING THEM THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY NEED TO BE HAPPY WITH KEEPING THE TEAM WHERE IT IS IN BUFFALO. Would you put down almost a Billion dollars of your own money and just be happy to say break even doing some low cost renos to update a 40 year old stadium? Or would you want to look into doing whatever is possible to up the revenue so that you can turn a profit and make a return on your investment? Remembering that right now Ralph and the Bills turn a profit, but they also have ZERO DEBT to worry about cause the team and stadium are paid off in full at this time. AND AGAIN, WHEN HAS THE WEATHER EVER BEEN AN ADVANTAGE IN THE LAST DECADE FOR THE BILLS? Players are coming from all over in todays NFL, and the weather has been all over the place recently with Nice warm Sundays happening into Decemeber sometimes. If a new stadium is going to require that it be a dome to make it viable as a year round facility for other events, then thats what it will have to be.
Mr. WEO Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Fixed. Up to date is irrelevant in my opinion. It just needs to be viable. I agree--as long as the building is safe and sound, what would the point of 100 million or more (let's just assume more) "improvement"? Is a "wider concourse" going to make a difference in the amount the state collects in revenue (to pay for the upgrades)? More "luxury suites"? Who's buying them (that doesn't already own the)? Are they fully occupied? Is there a waiting list of corporate high rollers aching to splurge a new expensive boxes? What are all oof the "other events" the stadium would be used for? Who would get that money--Ralph or the County/State?
apuszczalowski Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Here's the thing... The guy who put forth this proposition is a NOBODY..just some f'ing hack who works at a radio station no one ever even heard of! He has a homeboy who sits on the city counsel so he was allowed to trot up there and propose some ill conceived concept...These are not smart people by the way. There is no way in HELL that the city, state or taxpayers of WNY are paying for a billion dollar stadium in downtown Buffalo. Lets just hope an agreement can be made to come up with $200 million and upgrade The Ralph like KC and Green Bay did. There is nothing wrong with the Ralph's design, or that it is in OP...just needs some serious updating. How is this even a story? How is the news giving this guy a second of airtime? Give me an F'ing break with this! it doesn't matter who put forth the idea, its something that has been quietly talked about as something that may be needed by fans and people all over that the Bills will either need a new stadium, or some major renovations to RWS in order to compete and keep up financially with the rest of the league. The biggest question that needs to be looked at by everyone involved will be what is the best option financially? Is it worth continuing to pour money into the current stadium to improve it or is it better financially to build something new? Green bay, Chicago and KC decided to do extensive renovations to the existing stadiums (Lambeau and Soldier Feild are also iconic football stadiums similar to say Wrigley field and Fenway park in baseball that building a new stadium would almost be sacrilege to the sport). Either way, something will need to be done to help keep the Bills in Buffalo when a new owner takes over, and why not for once take the approach of looking at it and discussing it ahead of time instead of after its too late?
RTW2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 AND AGAIN, WHEN HAS THE WEATHER EVER BEEN AN ADVANTAGE IN THE LAST DECADE FOR THE BILLS? Players are coming from all over in todays NFL, and the weather has been all over the place recently with Nice warm Sundays happening into Decemeber sometimes. If a new stadium is going to require that it be a dome to make it viable as a year round facility for other events, then thats what it will have to be. Agreed. The "weather advantage" is BS. Didn't stop the Dolphins from winning 10 straight games up here in the 70s. Hell, didn't stop the Dolphins from winning up here last year.
apuszczalowski Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 I agree--as long as the building is safe and sound, what would the point of 100 million or more (let's just assume more) "improvement"? Is a "wider concourse" going to make a difference in the amount the state collects in revenue (to pay for the upgrades)? More "luxury suites"? Who's buying them (that doesn't already own the)? Are they fully occupied? Is there a waiting list of corporate high rollers aching to splurge a new expensive boxes? What are all oof the "other events" the stadium would be used for? Who would get that money--Ralph or the County/State? I would assume that if the other events are not Bills related, it would go to whomever runs the stadium. The Bills are the ones leasing the stadium from the county, so unless they have written in the lease that they have full control of the stadium year round, it would go to whomever is running the place when the Bills aren't as for the County making the money back, If they improve the facility, can they not get more from the Bills in the lease? If the facility is improved, can the bills not charge more for tickets to a better facility that will provide the public a better experience? Will building better luxury suites attract more buyers, or allow the Bills to charge more to the groups that currently own one? If they can't keep the stadium up to date, and no one is buying the luxury boxes, then this team will not be able to compete in the NFL in teh future and will not be economically viable without the rest of the league there to offer help and prop them up. Its sad because its a sporting even and do you really need more then some seats, concessions, and bathrooms? But the NFL is a business thats always looking to maximise profits, and if you can't keep up, your not gonna survive
Bufcomments Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 I would assume that if the other events are not Bills related, it would go to whomever runs the stadium. The Bills are the ones leasing the stadium from the county, so unless they have written in the lease that they have full control of the stadium year round, it would go to whomever is running the place when the Bills aren't as for the County making the money back, If they improve the facility, can they not get more from the Bills in the lease? If the facility is improved, can the bills not charge more for tickets to a better facility that will provide the public a better experience? Will building better luxury suites attract more buyers, or allow the Bills to charge more to the groups that currently own one? If they can't keep the stadium up to date, and no one is buying the luxury boxes, then this team will not be able to compete in the NFL in teh future and will not be economically viable without the rest of the league there to offer help and prop them up. Its sad because its a sporting even and do you really need more then some seats, concessions, and bathrooms? But the NFL is a business thats always looking to maximise profits, and if you can't keep up, your not gonna survive If they are going to upgrade the stadium, they better go balls out. Do it so hard that it makes the league notice. That you can continue to be competitive with an older stadium that payed for. Green Bay has proven it. Keep the staduim where it is, build a Big huge convention center next to Where the Sabres play. Something has to be built downtown tho.
Mr. WEO Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 I would assume that if the other events are not Bills related, it would go to whomever runs the stadium. The Bills are the ones leasing the stadium from the county, so unless they have written in the lease that they have full control of the stadium year round, it would go to whomever is running the place when the Bills aren't as for the County making the money back, If they improve the facility, can they not get more from the Bills in the lease? If the facility is improved, can the bills not charge more for tickets to a better facility that will provide the public a better experience? Will building better luxury suites attract more buyers, or allow the Bills to charge more to the groups that currently own one? If they can't keep the stadium up to date, and no one is buying the luxury boxes, then this team will not be able to compete in the NFL in teh future and will not be economically viable without the rest of the league there to offer help and prop them up. Its sad because its a sporting even and do you really need more then some seats, concessions, and bathrooms? But the NFL is a business thats always looking to maximise profits, and if you can't keep up, your not gonna survive I believe the current lease gives the Bills control over any event held at the Ralph. Anyone know for sure? The Bills aren;t selling out games in December. That won't change with a food court and wider concourse. If there is no market for more luxury boxes why would you build them? Where is the demand now?? You think no one is cuurently buying the luxury boes now because they are not luxurious enough? The Bills have been maximizing profits and "keeping up" better than many teams over the years.
CodeMonkey Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Keep the staduim where it is, build a Big huge convention center next to Where the Sabres play. Something has to be built downtown tho. I've seen convention center brought up a couple times. What the !@#$ would a huge convention center in Buffalo be used for? Who would be coming there? There is no point to having a big convention center without good hotels close and groups wanting to go to Buffalo for their conventions. No point building it to sit empty.
PromoTheRobot Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 I've seen convention center brought up a couple times. What the !@#$ would a huge convention center in Buffalo be used for? Who would be coming there? There is no point to having a big convention center without good hotels close and groups wanting to go to Buffalo for their conventions. No point building it to sit empty. Believe it or not conventions do (or did) come to Buffalo. Not huge ones but usually regional stuff. Still good money for the local hospitality industry. But Buffalo's current facility is so lacking that they can't even get the stuff they used to get. If you are standing still you are going backwards. PTR
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 . . . Remembering that right now Ralph and the Bills turn a profit, but they also have ZERO DEBT to worry about cause the team and stadium are paid off in full at this time. . . . While I agree with you that a future owner of the Bills is likely to have more debt than Ralph, there is reason to believe that Ralph had about $128 million in team-related debt as recently as 2009: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/130751-conventional-wisdom-bills-have-no-debt-service/page__p__2173076__hl__%2Bconventional+%2Bwisdom__fromsearch__1#entry2173076 I don't know where or how Forbes magazine got their info about Ralph's 2009 team-related finances, but Forbes is considered a generally reliable source of financial information by most people.
PromoTheRobot Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Agreed. The "weather advantage" is BS. Didn't stop the Dolphins from winning 10 straight games up here in the 70s. Hell, didn't stop the Dolphins from winning up here last year. The 2007 Bills/Browns game ruined any notion that football was meant to be played in snow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ssHCwteX4M PTR
Bufcomments Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) if you have a big enough one a nice convention center can have multiple uses. Wrestling, indoor skating rink, large conventions for major meetings, car shows, there are lots of ways to use them but they have a be big enough to hold large events. Edited April 13, 2012 by Bufcomments
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) I believe the current lease gives the Bills control over any event held at the Ralph. Anyone know for sure? . . . http://www.erie.gov/billslease/stadium.phtml 2.3 Civic Events. Other than during the NFL Season, the Bills shall make the Stadium Complex available for up to four (4) Civic Events per Lease Year on the following terms and conditions: (a) Three (3) of such Civic Events shall be available for use by the County or any Person designated by the County, and one (1) of such Civic Events shall be available for use by the ECSC or any Person designated by the ECSC. (b) At least forty-five (45) days but not more than one-hundred and eighty (180) days prior to the date of the proposed Civic Event, the County or the ECSC, as the case may be, shall notify the Bills in writing of the requested date for such event and shall identify in all material respects to the extent then known the nature of the event, the sponsor, the areas of the Stadium Complex to be utilized, the terms (including ticket prices) of admission, the expected attendance, any special security or other arrangements and any other relevant information reasonably necessary for the Bills to perform their duties as the operator of the Stadium Complex. The notifying party shall update the content of such notice from time to time promptly upon becoming aware of any changes in the information given above and any additional relevant information of the type described above. Upon its receipt of a notice requesting the scheduling of a Civic Event, the Bills shall reserve such date for such Civic Event (unless such date has been previously reserved for another Stadium Event) and shall not schedule any other subsequently proposed Stadium Event on such date without written approval from the County or the ECSC, as the case may be. © In no event shall any Civic Event be scheduled on any date that has been previously reserved for a Bills' Event or another Civic Event. The County, the ECSC and the Bills shall exercise good faith and cooperate with one another in the event of potential conflicts that may arise between proposed events. (d) In no event shall any Civic Event be a professional football game or other professional sporting contest, nor shall any Civic Event include an event or activity which reasonably may be expected to cause damage to the Playing Field which will not be repaired in a timely fashion. (e) The Bills shall promptly invoice the County or the ECSC, as the case may be, for all Civic Event Expenses following any Civic Event which it sponsors, and shall include with such invoice copies of appropriate back-up documentation evidencing such Civic Event Expenses. Within forty-five (45) business days of the receipt by the County or the ECSC of any such invoice, the recipient shall, at its sole cost and expense, reimburse the Bills for all invoiced Civic Event Expenses. (f) The County and the ECSC shall each retain the admission ticket revenue (if any) from any Civic Event which it sponsors. (g) All Licensees who seek to use their Luxury Suite or Club Level Seat in conjunction with a Civic Event shall be required to purchase admission tickets for such Civic Event. (h) The County or the ECSC, as the case may be, shall promptly repair or cause to be repaired any damage to any component of the Stadium Complex arising out of any Civic Event which it sponsors. (i) Neither the County, the ECSC nor any Person designated by the County or the ECSC with respect to a Civic Event shall have the right to use any of the Reserved Areas during Civic Events. (j) At the request of the County or the ECSC, as the case may be, the Bills shall operate the Stadium Complex concessions and the Parking Areas during or in connection with a Civic Event at a level deemed appropriate by the Bills, in their reasonable discretion, in light of the nature of the Civic Event and the number of Stadium Patrons expected to attend the Civic Event. All revenue derived from such operations shall belong to the Bills. * * * * * * * * * * * * ARTICLE 4. ADDITIONAL RIGHTS OF THE BILLS WITH RESPECT TO THE STADIUM COMPLEX 4.1 General Right to Receive Revenue Generated at the Stadium Complex. Subject to the terms and conditions of this Stadium Lease, and, in particular Article 2 and Article 4, during the Term, the Bills shall have the exclusive right to contract for, collect, receive and retain all income and revenues of whatever kind or nature realized by, from or in connection with the Stadium Complex, including, without limitation, all revenues, royalties, license fees, concession fees and income and receipts arising from (a) the sale or distribution of admission tickets to Games and Bills' Events (including admission tickets to Club Level Seats, Luxury Suites and general admission seats); (b) the naming of, or the sale, lease or license of the right to name the Stadium Complex or any portion thereof; © the sale, lease or license of the Advertising Rights, including Signage; (d) the sale, lease or license of the Broadcast Rights; (e) the sale of food and beverages at the Stadium Complex; (f) the operation of the Parking Areas; (g) the sale of merchandise, programs and other goods and wares of any nature whatsoever at the Stadium Complex; and (h) the use of Luxury Suites and Club Level Seats. Nothing contained herein or elsewhere in the Stadium Agreements shall be construed as a limitation or curtailment of the general regulatory or police powers of the County or any other Governmental Authority. It is further acknowledged and agreed that the rights of the Bills pursuant to this Article 4 (including, without limitation, any contract entered by the Bills pursuant to this Article 4): (a) shall expire at the end of the Term (regardless of whether the Term ends by reason of the attainment of the Stadium Lease Expiration Date or the earlier termination or cancellation thereof); and (b) shall be subject to Applicable Law (including any obligation imposed on the Bills under Applicable Law to collect and remit all required sales and use taxes). Edited April 13, 2012 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead
Offside Number 76 Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 The 2007 Bills/Browns game ruined any notion that football was meant to be played in snow. youtube.com/watch?v=_ssHCwteX4M PTR Well, except no one was attempting to play football that day.
RTW2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 I remember the News did a study of convention centers in midsized cities, and Buffalo's came up woefully undersized compared to cities like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Cincinnati. And that was in the 90s. If a downtown dome could be used to increase convention floor space, then by all means make it happen. Do conventions use domed stadiums? As far as the Ralph goes, I believe there was talk a few years ago about how the structure was aging. Do wider concourses increase revenue? No, but they do increase gameday comfort. If the Ralph can be maintained indefinitely with regular upkeep, fine, but if it's aging to the point of becoming a money pit, then start planning its replacement.
spurbs Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 I'm all for building a new stadium downtown. I figure they are going to tax us anyways and I'd rather fund a stadium than a bunch of people living off Medicaid for the third generation in a row
Mr. WEO Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Believe it or not conventions do (or did) come to Buffalo. Not huge ones but usually regional stuff. Still good money for the local hospitality industry. But Buffalo's current facility is so lacking that they can't even get the stuff they used to get. If you are standing still you are going backwards. PTR This is an excellent article about the dubious anture of the convention center business and how craven politicians foolishly keep asking for more. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204720204577126603702369654.html While I agree with you that a future owner of the Bills is likely to have more debt than Ralph, there is reason to believe that Ralph had about $128 million in team-related debt as recently as 2009: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/130751-conventional-wisdom-bills-have-no-debt-service/page__p__2173076__hl__%2Bconventional+%2Bwisdom__fromsearch__1#entry2173076 I don't know where or how Forbes magazine got their info about Ralph's 2009 team-related finances, but Forbes is considered a generally reliable source of financial information by most people. There is no stadium debt--he never paid a penny for its construction or many expansions and upgrades since. Also, with 30-40 million a year in operating margin, there would be no need to take a loan for "signing bonuses". I remember the News did a study of convention centers in midsized cities, and Buffalo's came up woefully undersized compared to cities like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Cincinnati. And that was in the 90s. If a downtown dome could be used to increase convention floor space, then by all means make it happen. Do conventions use domed stadiums? As far as the Ralph goes, I believe there was talk a few years ago about how the structure was aging. Do wider concourses increase revenue? No, but they do increase gameday comfort. If the Ralph can be maintained indefinitely with regular upkeep, fine, but if it's aging to the point of becoming a money pit, then start planning its replacement. Conventions don't use domed stadiums. The use multiroom facilities to handle large and small meetings/subgroups/demos/exhibits. I have been to conventions all over the country--never even heard of one involving a football stadium. Organizations that hold conventions have 2 major criteria: it has to be in a place that will maximize attendance and it has to have low costs/overhead (usually that means a non-union setting). Buffalo would fail on both of these accounts.
JohnC Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) I believe the current lease gives the Bills control over any event held at the Ralph. Anyone know for sure? You are correct. When the outdoor NHL game was played at the Ralph he collected the rent money. Ralph Wilson doesn't technically own the stadium but he controls it. A distinction without a difference. He decides what events are allowed in the facility he oversees. In addition, he is the one who controls the naming rights for the stadium, which he stubbornly won't sell. He also controls the adjoining covered practice facility which he periodically rents out. From his perspective not a bad arrangement!!!!! Edited April 13, 2012 by JohnC
CodeMonkey Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 You are correct. When the outdoor NHL game was played at the Ralph he collected the rent money. Ralph Wilson doesn't technically own the stadium but he controls it. A distinction without a difference. He decides what events are allowed in the facility he oversees. In addition, he is the one who controls the naming rights for the stadium, which he stubbornly won't sell. He also controls the adjoining covered practice facility which he periodically rents out. From his perspective not a bad arrangement!!!!! All of the control and profit with little to none of the expenses. Say what you want about Mr. Wilson, but he sure got the politicians (and by extension, the tax payers) in the Buffalo area to bend over and take it up the ass with this deal. Well played Mr. Wilson, well played.
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