Greg Williams ...caught on tape....

[NoSaint]

Fumbles and ints are all in the spirit of fair play.

 

Of course it was about prioritizing aggressive play. All good coaches preach this, regardless of the sport.

 

Of course he was ok with injuries. That's why he set up a graduated pay scale for injurious hits in the first place. I would hope injuries weren't the number one priority but the fact he was ok with them AND WILLING TO PAY FOR THEM suggests he placed a high value on them AT LEAST. It's damning and indefensible no matter the 'intent' which is why intent doesn't matter. And contrary to many, NOT all good coaches engage in this type of behavior. Far from it.

 

It's too bad the Saints didn't can his ass before this all got out of hand for them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

of course - i was bringing up the fumbles and picks because you had referenced if it was about clean hits, why do you have to incentivize it. similarly, he shouldnt have to pay on the side for turnovers either. perhaps i mischaracterized how you meant that topic though...

 

its a bad situation, and i would not lose sleep if Gregg doesnt coach again. i just think its a bit sticky and when its boiled down to just "cartoffs and kill shots" or as florio referred to the whole thing "cash for crippling..." its a disservice to the discussion at hand.

 

i know you took a bit of a shot at my discussion about the actual head vs metaphorical head in the start of this talk - i wasnt saying either was fine by me, but that the two are not the same thing either. i think he deserves to get hammered, but i think it also needs to be based on fair, unemotional, and honest assessment of what happened. its easy to be really riled up about this, and because of that im trying myself to reign in the knee jerk. its a discussion ive had with saints fans the last 3 years honestly. they tended to think everything was on the up and up - but there were plenty of warning signs that the team was at time walking the boundaries. i didnt see devastating headshots, or cheap hits to the knees - and that does make a difference to me, but it was obvious they were worse than average on taunting, laying on the pile, reports of grabbing and twisting in the pile. you saw it in games like the lions where the lions players got flagged repeatedly for not wanting to take it. vikings, and tenessee complained down the stretch this year too, and about the same kind of stuff, the giants game got out of hand and these were all post thanksgiving this season. but again, i dont think those prioritized dirty hits for injury as much as getting in the other teams head at all costs, and if they get hurt - cool, one less guy to defend (which is awful). even the second lions game it was open knowledge that the goal was do not let CJ jump - if he does flip him on his head. lets see if he jumps again. its a legal hit, it may cause injury but it makes it so the huge receiver you are covering "becomes human" for your cbs. crabtree was going to be a beast after the catch for the saint cbs, hit him low and maybe he thinks twice about planting that foot to cut and he suddenly becomes human with regards to his special talent. i think thats where the speech in this goes to. frank gore is the head of the team - so get him running sideways, beat him up and keep him sideline to sideline, work him in the pile and make his day miserable and when the "head" dies, so does the rest of the team (didnt think alex smith would carry the team if gore was shut down, or injured). his comments on #10, mirror what the giants said they did the following week - hes had concussion issues, hit him and see if the ball comes out. maybe im giving him too much credit (not that im really giving him all that much in saying i think he was totally wrong, and totally arrogant)

 

i guess i fall somewhere between the average saint fan, and the average nfl fan on the spectrum of just how bad the offense at hand is. maybe im grasping too much to what my eyes were telling me to truly hear the story at hand. some of it meshes, some takes a bit of a leap.

Edited April 5, 2012 by NoSaint

[Joaquin1119]

this guy shouldn't be coaching ever again. no nfl,college,cfl,area football or even high school

[eball]

Ok, I've heard the audio as well as some commentary on Sirius NFL Radio. Gregggggg has to be one of the most arrogant, and stupid, individuals to find the public eye. To make the comments he made in an atmosphere in which he knew the Saints were under investigation, and in the midst of a documentary, showcases both traits beautifully.

 

Li'l Donte was on Sirius and he came down pretty hard on Gregggggg. He said he has never had a coach suggest they should intentionally try to injure a player or "go after" a known injured body part.

[truebillsfan]

Unreal,that a!@#$%& dont ever deserve to coach n tha nfl again,let alone anywhere els.how can u be that dirty n try to end someones career.everybody on tha team who went out n exacuted his demands deserve to be punished by tha nfl.i hope tha commish punish every player who went out n excuted that scumbags demands.

[Kevin]

I finally had a chance to listen to the tape, listen to some commentary, and take a nap. I woke up as pissed as I was when I laid down.

 

In my opinion it's really simple. There is a line. That line was crossed, and by the sounds of it crossed a very long time ago. I am sure that that wasn't his first speech. I'm sure that he made speeches like that in Buffalo. I get that football is a gladiator sport, where sometimes individuals suffer some of the severest injuries. Some of those injuries result in death, maybe not right away, but the injuries and hits take their toll. IMO, to say that you need to hit someone so hard that the next time the go over the middle they will think twice about catching the ball is ok. You are not implying you injure someone, and calling someone out making them a personal target. It IS NOT ok to say that you need to hit Kyle Williams in the head because he has had a history of concussions. Period.

 

If I'm Goodell, and I issued a warning to the Saints about issuing bounties, and just before I hear the appeal of the GM, HC, and one of the assistants involved this audio tape comes out from a game that was played AFTER I told the Saints to end the bounty program, I would not only deny the appeal, but depending what they present as their appeal extend the penalties.

 

Here's why.

 

There is a multi-million dollar lawsuit out there from former players regarding injuries, concussions in particular. If the NFL does anything deemed to be "a slap on the wrist" for punishment it could possibly cost the league a lot of funds. Goodell has to make a very profound statement. He has to make it known to the leagues other 31 teams that this WILL NOT be ignored. For the record, I don't think the Saints are the only team doing this, they were the unfortunate ones to get caught. If I'm Goodell, first, Williams gets the ban of Pete Rose proportions. I would ban him from even attending an NFL event. He is the main player, catalyst, problem in this whole debacle. Second, Payton's suspension goes from one season to indefinite. He was the leader of this team, and he/other coaches need to understand the HC's role in this as the top of the pinnacle. Payton can re-appeal the suspension at the end of the season, until then it stands, effective immediately. Loomis, a full season effective immediately. The Saints franchise would be docked multiple draft picks. I would also go to the NFLPA and tell them that from here on out if any player participates, starts, or advocates a bounty on another player that player and any teammate that was in coercion will be hit with penalties similar to that of the Saints coaches and organization.

[K-9]

of course - i was bringing up the fumbles and picks because you had referenced if it was about clean hits, why do you have to incentivize it. similarly, he shouldnt have to pay on the side for turnovers either. perhaps i mischaracterized how you meant that topic though...

 

its a bad situation, and i would not lose sleep if Gregg doesnt coach again. i just think its a bit sticky and when its boiled down to just "cartoffs and kill shots" or as florio referred to the whole thing "cash for crippling..." its a disservice to the discussion at hand.

 

i know you took a bit of a shot at my discussion about the actual head vs metaphorical head in the start of this talk - i wasnt saying either was fine by me, but that the two are not the same thing either. i think he deserves to get hammered, but i think it also needs to be based on fair, unemotional, and honest assessment of what happened. its easy to be really riled up about this, and because of that im trying myself to reign in the knee jerk. its a discussion ive had with saints fans the last 3 years honestly. they tended to think everything was on the up and up - but there were plenty of warning signs that the team was at time walking the boundaries. i didnt see devastating headshots, or cheap hits to the knees - and that does make a difference to me, but it was obvious they were worse than average on taunting, laying on the pile, reports of grabbing and twisting in the pile. you saw it in games like the lions where the lions players got flagged repeatedly for not wanting to take it. vikings, and tenessee complained down the stretch this year too, and about the same kind of stuff, the giants game got out of hand and these were all post thanksgiving this season. but again, i dont think those prioritized dirty hits for injury as much as getting in the other teams head at all costs, and if they get hurt - cool, one less guy to defend (which is awful). even the second lions game it was open knowledge that the goal was do not let CJ jump - if he does flip him on his head. lets see if he jumps again. its a legal hit, it may cause injury but it makes it so the huge receiver you are covering "becomes human" for your cbs. crabtree was going to be a beast after the catch for the saint cbs, hit him low and maybe he thinks twice about planting that foot to cut and he suddenly becomes human with regards to his special talent. i think thats where the speech in this goes to. frank gore is the head of the team - so get him running sideways, beat him up and keep him sideline to sideline, work him in the pile and make his day miserable and when the "head" dies, so does the rest of the team (didnt think alex smith would carry the team if gore was shut down, or injured). his comments on #10, mirror what the giants said they did the following week - hes had concussion issues, hit him and see if the ball comes out. maybe im giving him too much credit (not that im really giving him all that much in saying i think he was totally wrong, and totally arrogant)

 

i guess i fall somewhere between the average saint fan, and the average nfl fan on the spectrum of just how bad the offense at hand is. maybe im grasping too much to what my eyes were telling me to truly hear the story at hand. some of it meshes, some takes a bit of a leap.

 

Knowing you're a Saints fan, average or not, allows me to sympathize with your position. I truly do feel sorry for Saints fans having to put up with the aftermath of all this. This has the potential to tear a SB contender apart. It also has the potential to galvanize the team. I hope it's the latter.

 

I haven't listened to the tape of Gregg Williams' pre-game speech in the locker room. To me it doesn't matter. That's all after the fact to me. Moving forward and as new information comes out about what the league's investigation found, I wouldn't be surprised if Williams faces criminal charges down the line.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[NoSaint]

Knowing you're a Saints fan, average or not, allows me to sympathize with your position. I truly do feel sorry for Saints fans having to put up with the aftermath of all this. This has the potential to tear a SB contender apart. It also has the potential to galvanize the team. I hope it's the latter.

 

I haven't listened to the tape of Gregg Williams' pre-game speech in the locker room. To me it doesn't matter. That's all after the fact to me. Moving forward and as new information comes out about what the league's investigation found, I wouldn't be surprised if Williams faces criminal charges down the line.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

meh - im a bills fan at heart and catch pretty much every game still, but i like football, and i enjoy sundays at games so I have season tickets down here. it was fun getting swept up in a superbowl run, even if a bit bittersweet, and watching drew is something else, but im not all that emotionally invested in the team. if gregg was paying fines and instructing dirty hits, i think he deserves charges too.

[DC Grid]

It seems clear right now this was no conspiracy. To me the funny part was how much this release has changed the dynamic in the league office. One of my college roomates works for the league office and over the weekend he indicated the suspension of Payton was likely being reduced. When this news broke I texted him to see if that was still the chance and his quick response was fat chance.

[NoSaint]

I finally had a chance to listen to the tape, listen to some commentary, and take a nap. I woke up as pissed as I was when I laid down.

 

In my opinion it's really simple. There is a line. That line was crossed, and by the sounds of it crossed a very long time ago. I am sure that that wasn't his first speech. I'm sure that he made speeches like that in Buffalo. I get that football is a gladiator sport, where sometimes individuals suffer some of the severest injuries. Some of those injuries result in death, maybe not right away, but the injuries and hits take their toll. IMO, to say that you need to hit someone so hard that the next time the go over the middle they will think twice about catching the ball is ok. You are not implying you injure someone, and calling someone out making them a personal target. It IS NOT ok to say that you need to hit Kyle Williams in the head because he has had a history of concussions. Period.

 

If I'm Goodell, and I issued a warning to the Saints about issuing bounties, and just before I hear the appeal of the GM, HC, and one of the assistants involved this audio tape comes out from a game that was played AFTER I told the Saints to end the bounty program, I would not only deny the appeal, but depending what they present as their appeal extend the penalties.

 

Here's why.

 

There is a multi-million dollar lawsuit out there from former players regarding injuries, concussions in particular. If the NFL does anything deemed to be "a slap on the wrist" for punishment it could possibly cost the league a lot of funds. Goodell has to make a very profound statement. He has to make it known to the leagues other 31 teams that this WILL NOT be ignored. For the record, I don't think the Saints are the only team doing this, they were the unfortunate ones to get caught. If I'm Goodell, first, Williams gets the ban of Pete Rose proportions. I would ban him from even attending an NFL event. He is the main player, catalyst, problem in this whole debacle. Second, Payton's suspension goes from one season to indefinite. He was the leader of this team, and he/other coaches need to understand the HC's role in this as the top of the pinnacle. Payton can re-appeal the suspension at the end of the season, until then it stands, effective immediately. Loomis, a full season effective immediately. The Saints franchise would be docked multiple draft picks. I would also go to the NFLPA and tell them that from here on out if any player participates, starts, or advocates a bounty on another player that player and any teammate that was in coercion will be hit with penalties similar to that of the Saints coaches and organization.

 

a few bits that will be tough for the nfl-

 

schefter is reporting that point blank he was told to stop by loomis and SP. Gregg also had FULL control over the D and D meetings, so short of firing him with cause during the playoffs, im not sure what options they had by the time this re-opened in 2011. further they were not in the room for this speech, and depending on the verbiage in Greggs contract, he might have had authority to not let them be in the room. i know SP had no say in defensive gameplans, playcalls, staffing, anything defensive was Gregg, though SP was welcome to make friendly suggestions. that doesnt excuse anything, but its a dynamic to be aware of when discussing Gregg, vs SP and loomis. i think that they decided he was on his way out the door and would let the situation resolve itself after telling him to stop. I know they didnt offer him any type of contract or even enter talks about it which i think is connected to this maverick image. allegedly they were pretty unhappy all around by the end of 2011, with everything including the play calls and untouchable attitude at the facilities, perhaps this as well, but i dont know specifically. its their team though and they will take the fall for it. at the very least they gave the wrong man too much power, at worst they were every bit complicit - im not sure as the nfl has released very little real info - where their responsibility picks up is an interesting topic in my eyes, and miiiiight play out in the appeal. id be curious why SP is at 12 months, and Loomis only 8 games, with vitt at 6 games - as far as I can tell from whats released, the biggest difference is an email from ornstein to SP, which the nfl cant prove he even read. im not arguing he didnt know about all this, or he did enough to stop it, just curious what the gap in lengths is a result of.

 

the other thing thats tough is that so many players have made just plain stupid comments - from suggs admitting a bounty on mendenhall after they blew out his knee, to the giants players admitting they targetted williams concussions just a week after this speach... its a tough spot for the nfl to lay down the law that hard on such a small group, and not have the net atleast go slightly outside the organization.

Edited April 5, 2012 by NoSaint

[eme123]

I just cant believe people think "intentional injury" was actually a strategy on GW's part. It has got to be the fastest way to lose a game. You are never going to just be able to injure someone out of the game on the first play. These guys don't carry weapons. Football isn't the Sopranos. By the time you finally break a specific guys ankle or get a good enough lick on a QB to give him a concussion you would have racked up so many penalties the game would be over. Then you are subject to ejection, suspension, fines, etc. What bounty is worth that?

 

If the intent was to injure why wouldn't Greg Williams tell his defense to throw cheap shots after the play. Hell, there is only a few million people watching its not like you can disguise it anyway. So why even try to hide it. The whole idea is stupid to me.

 

If you claim that him talking like an animal was anything more than an an attempt at motivation that is rediculous. Especially since he knew it was being recorded.

 

Not to mention the biggest fact of all.....Crabtree still has an intact ACL, Vernon Davis' ankles aren't broke, and Alex Smith never got hit in the chin. The Saints D must have taken GW really serious.

[NoSaint]

Bob Glauber ‏ @BobGlauber

Joe Vitt's attorney, David Cornwell, said he is aware of Gregg Williams 49ers game comments. Said he was "rogue coach" about to be fired.

[NewEra]

He should be banned from football forever. What a piece of trash. Made me sick listening to him. I can't believe we hired that guy as a HC

[Malazan]

It seems clear right now this was no conspiracy. To me the funny part was how much this release has changed the dynamic in the league office. One of my college roomates works for the league office and over the weekend he indicated the suspension of Payton was likely being reduced. When this news broke I texted him to see if that was still the chance and his quick response was fat chance.

 

The 'conspiracy' was the coverup, wasn't it?

[Dragonborn10]

after hearing that i wonder was it edited some?

 

I mean Williams sounds crazy, half sentences, repeats himself like Rainman, very strange.

 

Think maybe he has been hit in the head a few times and wants others to feel his pain?

 

Seriously, this goes against everything the NFL is very publicly trying to stop- 'Head Shots'. 'Cut off the head and the body dies'.

Not to mention taking out guys knees.

If Goodell doesn't throw Williams out of the league for ever, he is allowing a huge liability to be involved.

I met Drew Bledsoe a few times around the time Williams was coach. He said Williams was nuts. His half time speeches were just screaming rants with F-bomb after F-bomb and he could not stand the guy.

[NoSaint]

I met Drew Bledsoe a few times around the time Williams was coach. He said Williams was nuts. His half time speeches were just screaming rants with F-bomb after F-bomb and he could not stand the guy.

My impression following his career is he interviews well, has a smart playbook to show off, a great reccomendation from Jeff fisher and is totally nuts.

 

I'm still curious about the Gregg-fisher relationship

Edited April 5, 2012 by NoSaint

[Just in Atlanta]

He obviously went to the Cobra Kai school of coaching.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM&feature=fvwrel

[BEAST MODE BABY!]

I also don't think players should be punished for this beyond fines. They were simply doing what their boss told them to do. To refuse, is to lose a multi-million dollar a year job...

 

That defense didn't fly for the Nuremberg trials, which was far more serious, so I don't think it flies here either.

[vincec]

Did I catch a "sweep the leg" in there?

Nice.

 

That defense didn't fly for the Nuremberg trials, which was far more serious, so I don't think it flies here either.

The obvious difference being that at Nuremberg, the defendants were shown to have committed the crimes and then said that they were just following orders whereas here it can't really be shown that anyone deliberately injured an opposing player (for the bounty or for any other reason). I think that if you could show that someone deliberately injured an opposing player he would be severely punished and saying that his coach told him to do so would not get him out of it.

[K-9]

That defense didn't fly for the Nuremberg trials, which was far more serious, so I don't think it flies here either.

 

Actually, one of the players should have had the stones to leverage the situation. "Give me a 10 year extension with a $10m annual raise or I blow the lid off this motherf*cker!"

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited April 6, 2012 by K-9

[vincec]

I'm sure that all of this is not that unusual. I knew high school coaches who said similar things to their players. I think that every coach needs to decide what his/her message and legacy is going to be to his players and the game. Does he want to be remembered as a teacher, mentor and leader or as a win at all costs fanatic who has limited perspective about life. I think of the way coaches like John Wooden, Red Auerbach and even Marv Levy ("don't play dumb, don't play dirty") are talked about by their former players. I wonder how many players will look back in 20 years and think of how Gregg Williams positively influenced their lives?