Where does Fitzpatrick Rank?

[Billsrhody]

Good stuff guys I think you both bring up some good points. I must say that I side with NoSaint on this one though. I just watched the first couple minutes of your video Kelly and it seemed like 75% of the throws were out of Brady's hand in the first 2 or 3 seconds. And being that they were all TD's, they were all very accurate as well.

 

The way I see it, Brady is superior to Fitz in every facet of the game. Accuracy, Game Management, Pocket Presence, Deep Throws, etc. Do you agree with that? If so, I dont see how the Bills are less than a 10 win team with him under center.

[Kelly the Dog]

Good stuff guys I think you both bring up some good points. I must say that I side with NoSaint on this one though. I just watched the first couple minutes of your video Kelly and it seemed like 75% of the throws were out of Brady's hand in the first 2 or 3 seconds. And being that they were all TD's, they were all very accurate as well.

 

The way I see it, Brady is superior to Fitz in every facet of the game. Accuracy, Game Management, Pocket Presence, Deep Throws, etc. Do you agree with that? If so, I dont see how the Bills are less than a 10 win team with him under center.

I agree with the first sentence, not the second. It's abundantly clear that Brady does not like to get hit at all, he doesnt respond well to it, he suffers when he cannot step up into the pocket, and he often is forced into bad throws under a rush. Those 75% of the throws you referenced, he didnt get touched on. The last ten games, there was no pocket for Fitz to step up in after Wood and a couple of OGs were hurt. If Brady couldn't utilize that like he is awesome at, suddenly he can't play like he does. If Brady took the blows that Fitz took, which he would have because the rush came quick, he would have been flustered and frustrated and shell shocked 10x more than he was on the Patriots, and he does it quickly. Like I said before, I think there are a ton of QBs better than Fitz but I also think he doesnt get nearly enough credit for doing what he did on the Bills and others QBs better than him would have crumbled easier and earlier.

[Billsrhody]

I agree with the first sentence, not the second. It's abundantly clear that Brady does not like to get hit at all, he doesnt respond well to it, he suffers when he cannot step up into the pocket, and he often is forced into bad throws under a rush. Those 75% of the throws you referenced, he didnt get touched on. The last ten games, there was no pocket for Fitz to step up in after Wood and a couple of OGs were hurt. If Brady couldn't utilize that like he is awesome at, suddenly he can't play like he does. If Brady took the blows that Fitz took, which he would have because the rush came quick, he would have been flustered and frustrated and shell shocked 10x more than he was on the Patriots, and he does it quickly. Like I said before, I think there are a ton of QBs better than Fitz but I also think he doesnt get nearly enough credit for doing what he did on the Bills and others QBs better than him would have crumbled easier and earlier.

 

Last year in the regular season Brady was sacked 32 times, Fitz was sacked 22 times. You can say that Fitz was forced to throw earlier, but you could easily same the same about Brady. I tried to find stats for pressures and hits but couldnt find anything, so sacks are all we have to go by.

 

I'm a little confused though. If you think Brady is better than Fitz at essentially everything, then how does that not lead to more wins? In your opinion, how many wins would the bills have had if Brady was their starting QB?

[Kelly the Dog]

Last year in the regular season Brady was sacked 32 times, Fitz was sacked 22 times. You can say that Fitz was forced to throw earlier, but you could easily same the same about Brady. I tried to find stats for pressures and hits but couldnt find anything, so sacks are all we have to go by.

 

I'm a little confused though. If you think Brady is better than Fitz at essentially everything, then how does that not lead to more wins? In your opinion, how many wins would the bills have had if Brady was their starting QB?

1] Why would you say "you could easily say the same about Brady". I don't understand what you mean. I watch a lot of Patriot's games. Brady has significantly more time to throw in every single one of them overall.

 

2] That's a tough question. I really think that if Brady faced the same rush that Fitzpatrick did he would not have finished the season at all. There is no way, of course, of knowing that. If he played the same amount of games as Fitz did and had to be the QB on all those same plays, I think perhaps we win a game, maybe two more, but perhaps not. But I think Brady is simply knocked out and couldnt take the pounding. Actually, I think there are a LOT more sacks and Brady just falls to the ground like he often does under a huge rush instead of taking the hit like Fitz did.

 

Brady does possess an uncanny ability and talent for feeling the rush and side stepping onrushing linemen. So there are surely a bunch of plays where Fitz might have gotten hit and Brady avoided it. But that said, there were more plays than that IMO where Brady would simply have not gotten the pass off that Fitz did because he would not have been willing to stand there until the last nanosecond to throw before knowing he was going to be plastered. Fitz did that repeatedly.

 

This is obviously all conjecture on all of our parts, there is no way of knowing. I do feel strongly though, that if there were a youtube of every pass that Fitz threw and the amount of time he had as well as the amount of times he got hit flush, people would give him a lot more credit, especially if you could watch the same clips for other NFL QBs, including Brady.

 

Officially, as a stat, the Bills weren't even amongst the league leaders at all in the amount of QB hits given up. Lower third in fact. Mostly because we rarely went downfield and almost all of Fitz's throws were just get back and throw it less than 10 yards. But the amount of times he got plastered, if they kept that stat, would have been high.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Kelly the Dog

[Billsrhody]

1] Why would you say "you could easily say the same about Brady". I don't understand what you mean. I watch a lot of Patriot's games. Brady has significantly more time to throw in every single one of them overall.

 

2] That's a tough question. I really think that if Brady faced the same rush that Fitzpatrick did he would not have finished the season at all. There is no way, of course, of knowing that. If he played the same amount of games as Fitz did and had to be the QB on all those same plays, I think perhaps we win a game, maybe two more, but perhaps not. But I think Brady is simply knocked out and couldnt take the pounding. Actually, I think there are a LOT more sacks and Brady just falls to the ground like he often does under a huge rush instead of taking the hit like Fitz did.

 

Brady does possess an uncanny ability and talent for feeling the rush and side stepping onrushing linemen. So there are surely a bunch of plays where Fitz might have gotten hit and Brady avoided it. But that said, there were more plays than that IMO where Brady would simply have not gotten the pass off that Fitz did because he would not have been willing to stand there until the last nanosecond to throw before knowing he was going to be plastered. Fitz did that repeatedly.

 

This is obviously all conjecture on all of our parts, there is no way of knowing. I do feel strongly though, that if there were a youtube of every pass that Fitz threw and the amount of time he had as well as the amount of times he got hit flush, people would give him a lot more credit, especially if you could watch the same clips for other NFL QBs, including Brady.

 

Officially, as a stat, the Bills weren't even amongst the league leaders at all in the amount of QB hits given up. Lower third in fact. Mostly because we rarely went downfield and almost all of Fitz's throws were just get back and throw it less than 10 yards. But the amount of times he got plastered, if they kept that stat, would have been high.

 

1) I just meant that its a subjective statement and could easily be used to argue either side.

 

2) So in your opinion, no quarterback could be successful on the bills right now? Thats a fair stance I just tend to think otherwise. Maybe Fitz does get hit more (or harder) than Brady currently does, but that doesn't excuse him from all the mistakes he made last year. There is no way Brady throws as many picks as Fitz does if they're placed in the same system. To your point about Brady falling down. As much as I hate him when he does it, it is probably the right play. How many times have you seen Fitz take a shot and throw one up for grabs? I can think of several examples off the top of my head. At least Brady wont turn the ball over as much. Either way I see where you are coming from and to some extent I agree that Fitz is not the only problem. However, I'm not sure I believe the Bills can win a superbowl with him either.

 

So are you hoping for an offensive lineman in the first round of the draft?

[mountainwampus]

 

The way I see it, Brady is superior to Fitz in every facet of the game. Accuracy, Game Management, Pocket Presence, Deep Throws, etc. Do you agree with that? If so, I dont see how the Bills are less than a 10 win team with him under center.

 

I agree with most of this. Brady generally throws better balls than Fitz, no doubt. Brady has better touch passes, screens and deep throws. I'd give Fitz a slight edge on short bullet throws, because he has a faster release than Brady and he usually has great accuracy on those throws. Pocket presence is too close to call. They both do a great job with sack avoidance, with Fitz facing more adversity and getting sacked less. Game Management is tough to compare, but I'd give Fitz the edge because of all the comebacks he has orchestrated. I've witnessed Brady struggle in comeback attempts as he sometimes lacks the sense of urgency (though, it's rare that Brady is in a "comeback" situation). Toughness is hands down all Fitzy. He doesn't mind getting hit. He even congratulates D players for nice hits (as seen in his Mic'd up segment). He'll run head first into a defense on a QB sneak. He'll run back into a running play after the hand-off to block. Brady does none of this. He just cries after a hit, no matter how clean it was. Also, I feel like his skills start to crumble once he starts taking hits. With all that said, I still rank Brady higher than Fitz because of better throws/arm. BUT, that doesn't mean that Fitz's skills are so limited that they can't win more than 10 games. That doesn't make much sense. I could imagine Fitz taking this team all the way if he gets a few top-notch targets and at least an average D.

[JohnC]

 

This is obviously all conjecture on all of our parts, there is no way of knowing. I do feel strongly though, that if there were a youtube of every pass that Fitz threw and the amount of time he had as well as the amount of times he got hit flush, people would give him a lot more credit, especially if you could watch the same clips for other NFL QBs, including Brady.

 

Officially, as a stat, the Bills weren't even amongst the league leaders at all in the amount of QB hits given up. Lower third in fact. Mostly because we rarely went downfield and almost all of Fitz's throws were just get back and throw it less than 10 yards. But the amount of times he got plastered, if they kept that stat, would have been high.

 

I share your admiration for qbs such as Brady and Manning. They have qb instincts relating to timing and moving in the pocket that can't be taught. You either have that "feel" or don't. There are qbs who have impressive physical skills but lack a feel for the game. No matter how much these players are coached up or work on their game they will never acquire the trait of immediately "seeing" and "reacting" to what is happening on the field. JP Losman fits the mold of a qb with superb physical traits but lacks the mental traits required to excel. The best analogy I can come up with is that good point guards have the vision and ability to anticipate plays and pass to the right player than the more mechanical type players.

 

As far as some people bringing up Fitz into the same conversation when disccussing qbs such as Brady, Manning and Brees it is like talking to people who don't believe in evolution. Their insular reality can never be cracked. He is a legitimate starting NFL qb. At best he is an average qb.

 

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Rodgers who in my opinion is currently the best qb in the game. There isn't another qb who can throw as well when he is the pocket and on the move. In my view he is the most dynamic player, regardless of position, in the NFL.

Edited April 13, 2012 by JohnC

[Kelly the Dog]

1) I just meant that its a subjective statement and could easily be used to argue either side.

 

2) So in your opinion, no quarterback could be successful on the bills right now? Thats a fair stance I just tend to think otherwise. Maybe Fitz does get hit more (or harder) than Brady currently does, but that doesn't excuse him from all the mistakes he made last year. There is no way Brady throws as many picks as Fitz does if they're placed in the same system. To your point about Brady falling down. As much as I hate him when he does it, it is probably the right play. How many times have you seen Fitz take a shot and throw one up for grabs? I can think of several examples off the top of my head. At least Brady wont turn the ball over as much. Either way I see where you are coming from and to some extent I agree that Fitz is not the only problem. However, I'm not sure I believe the Bills can win a superbowl with him either.

 

So are you hoping for an offensive lineman in the first round of the draft?

Yes I am hoping for an LT in the first round but at this point in time I do trust Buddy Nix. If he doesn't take an LT or either Floyd or Blackmon I will be surprised. It's possible, I suppose, that he may choose Keuchly, but I would bet on either a LT or a WR, with a slight chance of CB or LB. He will say, whomever he takes, that it was the BPA but I probably won't believe it unless it is Blackmon, Floyd or Claiborne (not that I expect him to fall that far). .

 

It's impossible to answer the first question you raised. If you mean the first 5-6 games where we basically had a decent OL and mostly full contingent of receivers and RBs, then yes, a few QBs could have done a little better than Fitz but not much better. We were 5-2 and scored at the top of the league and he was ranked near the top of the league. The very best quarterbacks MAY have done better, but he was doing a great job of reading defenses, making the right decisions, making plays, eliminating mistakes and turnovers and scoring points. So yes, Rodgers, Manning and Brady and Brees could have fared better but they also may not have been doing some of the things that Fitz was doing right. It was hard to imagine other QBs scoring more than 30+ points a game. He was playing well.

 

Where it gets murky, and again, no one knows, is when the injuries hit the OL, the WR and TE, the RB and the QB. To be honest, I really don't think the best QBs would have played much better than him (especially if they had some cracked ribs). It is an arguable point. I see both sides. But to me, he had no time, he had no WR, he had no defense giving him field position or stopping the opposition at all so he had to throw all the time, and he was put in an impossible situation where even QBs clearly if not far better than him would not have played better. But put Fitz on those other teams, like the Packers or Saints or Pats or pre-2012 Colts or Steelers, and IMO Fitz could not play nearly as well as Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning, Big Ben, etc, play for their teams, which is why they are clearly better QBs than Fitz.

 

I just don't think anyone could have performed on the Bills last year the second half of the year under the circumstances of no time, precious little talent and no speed at WR, a hurt TE, no guys open or spreading the field, and no defense which forced the coaches to throw all game long,

 

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Rodgers who in my opinion is currently the best qb in the game. There isn't another qb who can throw as well when he is the pocket and on the move. In my view he is the most dynamic player, regardless of position, in the NFL.

I just forgot him and agree. He is also probably the only QB that IMO would have clearly been better than Fitz on the Bills last year during the second half when the team collapsed.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Kelly the Dog

[Billsrhody]

I agree with most of this. Brady generally throws better balls than Fitz, no doubt. Brady has better touch passes, screens and deep throws. I'd give Fitz a slight edge on short bullet throws, because he has a faster release than Brady and he usually has great accuracy on those throws. Pocket presence is too close to call. They both do a great job with sack avoidance, with Fitz facing more adversity and getting sacked less. Game Management is tough to compare, but I'd give Fitz the edge because of all the comebacks he has orchestrated. I've witnessed Brady struggle in comeback attempts as he sometimes lacks the sense of urgency (though, it's rare that Brady is in a "comeback" situation). Toughness is hands down all Fitzy. He doesn't mind getting hit. He even congratulates D players for nice hits (as seen in his Mic'd up segment). He'll run head first into a defense on a QB sneak. He'll run back into a running play after the hand-off to block. Brady does none of this. He just cries after a hit, no matter how clean it was. Also, I feel like his skills start to crumble once he starts taking hits. With all that said, I still rank Brady higher than Fitz because of better throws/arm. BUT, that doesn't mean that Fitz's skills are so limited that they can't win more than 10 games. That doesn't make much sense. I could imagine Fitz taking this team all the way if he gets a few top-notch targets and at least an average D.

 

I'm was very surprised to see you give the edge to Fitz in Game management. In my opinion, that is Brady's biggest strength. Its easy to look at the 2 comeback wins Fitz had last year, but what about the superbowls that Brady has won? He is one of the most clutch QBs in the history of the league.

[NewEra]

Another lesson learned. Fitz is a better game manager than Tom Brady. Yeah.......

[Alphadawg7]

1] Why would you say "you could easily say the same about Brady". I don't understand what you mean. I watch a lot of Patriot's games. Brady has significantly more time to throw in every single one of them overall.

 

2] That's a tough question. I really think that if Brady faced the same rush that Fitzpatrick did he would not have finished the season at all. There is no way, of course, of knowing that. If he played the same amount of games as Fitz did and had to be the QB on all those same plays, I think perhaps we win a game, maybe two more, but perhaps not. But I think Brady is simply knocked out and couldnt take the pounding. Actually, I think there are a LOT more sacks and Brady just falls to the ground like he often does under a huge rush instead of taking the hit like Fitz did.

 

Brady does possess an uncanny ability and talent for feeling the rush and side stepping onrushing linemen. So there are surely a bunch of plays where Fitz might have gotten hit and Brady avoided it. But that said, there were more plays than that IMO where Brady would simply have not gotten the pass off that Fitz did because he would not have been willing to stand there until the last nanosecond to throw before knowing he was going to be plastered. Fitz did that repeatedly.

 

This is obviously all conjecture on all of our parts, there is no way of knowing. I do feel strongly though, that if there were a youtube of every pass that Fitz threw and the amount of time he had as well as the amount of times he got hit flush, people would give him a lot more credit, especially if you could watch the same clips for other NFL QBs, including Brady.

 

Officially, as a stat, the Bills weren't even amongst the league leaders at all in the amount of QB hits given up. Lower third in fact. Mostly because we rarely went downfield and almost all of Fitz's throws were just get back and throw it less than 10 yards. But the amount of times he got plastered, if they kept that stat, would have been high.

 

Brady was sacked 10 more times and hit more than Fitz last year, so how on earth can you say Brady would not have finished the year if he was hit like Fitz, when he was hit MORE by the same defensive players? I hate to break it to you, but ALL of the evidence completely disproves any argument you have tried to make about Brady and Fitz comparison in terms of how he would have fared in Buffalo.

 

Case in point, there is 100% no chance NE makes the SB, probably not even the playoffs if Fitz leads NE instead of Brady.

 

Again, you have completely ignored the sheer fact that NE gave up the MOST, yes the MOST sacks in the NFL with Cassel, but Brady was one of the LEAST sacked QB's the year prior and the year after. And I hate to break it to you, but Fitz had time behind our line a lot more than you give credit for. Our line was not the reason we missed the playoffs last year.

 

NE had a WORSE D, a WORSE running game, a slightly WORSE recieving core, MUCH BETTER TE's, and a comparable OL yet they made the SB and the Bills finished with a losing record AGAIN, just like every year of Fitz's career...how many losing seasons has Brady had? ZERO

 

PS: All your video proved is exactly what we have been saying, Brady sees and understands the pressure and does whats needed to get the ball out BEFORE the pressure gets there or slides to avoid it. NO NFL QB LIKES BEING HIT NOR IS EFFECTIVE WHEN CONSTANTLY BEING HIT...so to say Brady doesnt want to be hit is a given, no one wants nor likes being hit by a 300 lb man who runs a sub 5.0 40 yard dash and bench presses Harleys in full sets. Guess who else doesnt like getting hit...Fitz.

 

Bottom line is, Buffalo is substantially better with Brady last year than Fitz, and its not even close. I get you love Fitz, but come one man, this is obvious.

[Bronc24]

Have not read all these threads, but anyone who thinks Fitz is even in the same state as Brdy, let alone ballpark, needs to get his head examined.

[NewEra]

1334344871[/url]' post='2436237']

Brady was sacked 10 more times and hit more than Fitz last year, so how on earth can you say Brady would not have finished the year if he was hit like Fitz, when he was hit MORE by the same defensive players? I hate to break it to you, but ALL of the evidence completely disproves any argument you have tried to make about Brady and Fitz comparison in terms of how he would have fared in Buffalo.

 

Case in point, there is 100% no chance NE makes the SB, probably not even the playoffs if Fitz leads NE instead of Brady.

 

Again, you have completely ignored the sheer fact that NE gave up the MOST, yes the MOST sacks in the NFL with Cassel, but Brady was one of the LEAST sacked QB's the year prior and the year after. And I hate to break it to you, but Fitz had time behind our line a lot more than you give credit for. Our line was not the reason we missed the playoffs last year.

 

NE had a WORSE D, a WORSE running game, a slightly WORSE recieving core, MUCH BETTER TE's, and a comparable OL yet they made the SB and the Bills finished with a losing record AGAIN, just like every year of Fitz's career...how many losing seasons has Brady had? ZERO

 

PS: All your video proved is exactly what we have been saying, Brady sees and understands the pressure and does whats needed to get the ball out BEFORE the pressure gets there or slides to avoid it. NO NFL QB LIKES BEING HIT NOR IS EFFECTIVE WHEN CONSTANTLY BEING HIT...so to say Brady doesnt want to be hit is a given, no one wants nor likes being hit by a 300 lb man who runs a sub 5.0 40 yard dash and bench presses Harleys in full sets. Guess who else doesnt like getting hit...Fitz.

 

Bottom line is, Buffalo is substantially better with Brady last year than Fitz, and its not even close. I get you love Fitz, but come one man, this is obvious.

 

Homers will be homers. In fitzs case, I can't ignore the obvious and will not jump on the homer bandwagon. Fred, on the other hand....I'm a homer through and through. Last season, he was THE best RB in the league. Now that AP has a bad knees injury, I would say Fred's the best RB in the league. That's coming from the mouth of a homer though.

[Bronc24]

Homers will be homers. In fitzs case, I can't ignore the obvious and will not jump on the homer bandwagon. Fred, on the other hand....I'm a homer through and through. Last season, he was THE best RB in the league. Now that AP has a bad knees injury, I would say Fred's the best RB in the league. That's coming from the mouth of a homer though.

 

Not sure about best....but damn well close if not.

[Kelly the Dog]

Brady was sacked 10 more times and hit more than Fitz last year, so how on earth can you say Brady would not have finished the year if he was hit like Fitz, when he was hit MORE by the same defensive players? I hate to break it to you, but ALL of the evidence completely disproves any argument you have tried to make about Brady and Fitz comparison in terms of how he would have fared in Buffalo.

 

Because I actually watched the games and the hits. All of Fitz's and the vast majority of Brady's. If you can say with the straight face that you think Tom Brady took a worse pounding than Ryan Fitzpatrick did last year, I'll call you a liar. Stats tell part of a story, often a misleading one.

Case in point, there is 100% no chance NE makes the SB, probably not even the playoffs if Fitz leads NE instead of Brady.

 

I never came close to implying they did so I don't know why you would say that. In fact, I said Brady is a much better QB than Fitz, and much better on NE than Fitz would be on NE.

 

Again, you have completely ignored the sheer fact that NE gave up the MOST, yes the MOST sacks in the NFL with Cassel, but Brady was one of the LEAST sacked QB's the year prior and the year after. And I hate to break it to you, but Fitz had time behind our line a lot more than you give credit for. Our line was not the reason we missed the playoffs last year.

 

That's just a lie. NE gave up the 5th most sacks in the league with Cassel. And of course he was going to be sacked a ton of times, the guy never even played a whole college football game before he played in the NFL. he attempted 33 passes his entire college career.

NE had a WORSE D, a WORSE running game, a slightly WORSE recieving core, MUCH BETTER TE's, and a comparable OL yet they made the SB and the Bills finished with a losing record AGAIN, just like every year of Fitz's career...how many losing seasons has Brady had? ZERO

 

NE did not have a worse D at all. A huge portion of the yards they gave up were because the opposition had to play catch up or score 30 points to beat the Pats. For the last two thirds of the season, the Bills defense was far worse than the Patriots. Overall they were, too.

 

That Patriots had a worse WR core? Welker is one of the very best in the game. The Pats franchised him and are going to pay him 15 million this year. He would make more than SJ on the open market because he is a better player. Branch is better than any other WR we have as #2. They also had a much better OL.

PS: All your video proved is exactly what we have been saying, Brady sees and understands the pressure and does whats needed to get the ball out BEFORE the pressure gets there or slides to avoid it. NO NFL QB LIKES BEING HIT NOR IS EFFECTIVE WHEN CONSTANTLY BEING HIT...so to say Brady doesnt want to be hit is a given, no one wants nor likes being hit by a 300 lb man who runs a sub 5.0 40 yard dash and bench presses Harleys in full sets. Guess who else doesnt like getting hit...Fitz.

 

Bottom line is, Buffalo is substantially better with Brady last year than Fitz, and its not even close. I get you love Fitz, but come one man, this is obvious.

Again, if you really want to say in public that you think Tom Brady is not affected any more than any other QB when he is hit and pressured, please do. It's the only way to stop him, and when teams do it, like the Bills did last year in game one with them, he becomes a completely different QB. The Giants did it as well. Yes, Brady is affected more by being hit than almost any great QB I have ever seen, and I think Brady is one of the best to ever play the game.

[JohnC]

Homers will be homers. In fitzs case, I can't ignore the obvious and will not jump on the homer bandwagon. Fred, on the other hand....I'm a homer through and through. Last season, he was THE best RB in the league. Now that AP has a bad knees injury, I would say Fred's the best RB in the league. That's coming from the mouth of a homer though.

 

I don't consider myself to be a homer. There is no need to expand on my previous comments about the averageness of Fitz. However, your ranking of Fred Jackson is reasonable. I'm not going to say that he is the best but based on last year's performance a person can reasonably make that claim. There wasn't a runner better than him who read the plays and made the right decisions. His ability to quickly read the blocks and hit the narrow seam was amazing. It was rare that when the replay was shown that it appeared that he made the wrong decision on where to go.

 

Freddy is an all around back in an era of specialization. He is an excellent blocker and can catch the ball out of the backfield. As with elite players such as Brady and Manning his football instincts are exceptional. If Spiller (still learnig) had the football acumen that Jackson had he would be a dynamite player. Without any reservations I am very comfortable in saying that he should be considered an elite running back in a league with a lot of very good backs.

[Best Player Available]

Because I actually watched the games and the hits. All of Fitz's and the vast majority of Brady's. If you can say with the straight face that you think Tom Brady took a worse pounding than Ryan Fitzpatrick did last year, I'll call you a liar. Stats tell part of a story, often a misleading one.

 

I never came close to implying they did so I don't know why you would say that. In fact, I said Brady is a much better QB than Fitz, and much better on NE than Fitz would be on NE.

 

That's just a lie. NE gave up the 5th most sacks in the league with Cassel. And of course he was going to be sacked a ton of times, the guy never even played a whole college football game before he played in the NFL. he attempted 33 passes his entire college career.

 

NE did not have a worse D at all. A huge portion of the yards they gave up were because the opposition had to play catch up or score 30 points to beat the Pats. For the last two thirds of the season, the Bills defense was far worse than the Patriots. Overall they were, too.

 

That Patriots had a worse WR core? Welker is one of the very best in the game. The Pats franchised him and are going to pay him 15 million this year. He would make more than SJ on the open market because he is a better player. Branch is better than any other WR we have as #2. They also had a much better OL.

 

Again, if you really want to say in public that you think Tom Brady is not affected any more than any other QB when he is hit and pressured, please do. It's the only way to stop him, and when teams do it, like the Bills did last year in game one with them, he becomes a completely different QB. The Giants did it as well. Yes, Brady is affected more by being hit than almost any great QB I have ever seen, and I think Brady is one of the best to ever play the game.

I like your thoughts on Brady after being hit. My translation is, it's always possible to get inside his head with a good pass rush. I really don't have anyone to compare him with because of that. Certainly not guys like Montana, Manning(s), Young, etc. Which one would consider his peers.

[Kelly the Dog]

Homers will be homers. In fitzs case, I can't ignore the obvious and will not jump on the homer bandwagon. Fred, on the other hand....I'm a homer through and through. Last season, he was THE best RB in the league. Now that AP has a bad knees injury, I would say Fred's the best RB in the league. That's coming from the mouth of a homer though.

I think it's pretty much inarguable that while Fred Jackson was playing last year, he was right at the top 2-3 performers in the league at RB. When terms are brought up like "who is the best" then all kinds of other factors are brought into play, like longevity, age, playoffs, etc. But Fred Jackson was clearly one of the very best, if not the very best RB in the NFL during the 10 games he played. I can't even imagine how good he would be thought of on a team like Green Bay or the Saints or the Patriots.

 

As far as Brady goes, no one anywhere is arguing that Fitz is nearly as good as Brady.

[Alphadawg7]

Because I actually watched the games and the hits. All of Fitz's and the vast majority of Brady's. If you can say with the straight face that you think Tom Brady took a worse pounding than Ryan Fitzpatrick did last year, I'll call you a liar. Stats tell part of a story, often a misleading one.

 

I never came close to implying they did so I don't know why you would say that. In fact, I said Brady is a much better QB than Fitz, and much better on NE than Fitz would be on NE.

 

That's just a lie. NE gave up the 5th most sacks in the league with Cassel. And of course he was going to be sacked a ton of times, the guy never even played a whole college football game before he played in the NFL. he attempted 33 passes his entire college career.

 

NE did not have a worse D at all. A huge portion of the yards they gave up were because the opposition had to play catch up or score 30 points to beat the Pats. For the last two thirds of the season, the Bills defense was far worse than the Patriots. Overall they were, too.

 

That Patriots had a worse WR core? Welker is one of the very best in the game. The Pats franchised him and are going to pay him 15 million this year. He would make more than SJ on the open market because he is a better player. Branch is better than any other WR we have as #2. They also had a much better OL.

 

Again, if you really want to say in public that you think Tom Brady is not affected any more than any other QB when he is hit and pressured, please do. It's the only way to stop him, and when teams do it, like the Bills did last year in game one with them, he becomes a completely different QB. The Giants did it as well. Yes, Brady is affected more by being hit than almost any great QB I have ever seen, and I think Brady is one of the best to ever play the game.

 

Sorry, let me rephrase...Cassell led the NFL in sacks while NE gave up the 5th most as a team...still Brady, was one of the LEAST sacked QB's behind the exact same line the year before and the year after...

 

2007 NE = 21 sacks allowed, 5th best in NFL

2008 NE = 48 sacks allowed, Cassell leads NFL in being sacked and NE is 5th most

2009 NE = 18 sacks allowed, 3rd best in NFL - and Brady was coming off a blown out NE and had LESS mobility than before as it was his first year back off the torn ACL.

 

Seriously, in TWO FULL SEASONS, Brady was sacked 39 times, one of those seasons he was coming off a torn ACL, and in Cassel's one season behind essentially the same line he was sacked 47 times! He was sacked 8 more times in one season to Bradys 2 seasons which included a gimpy knee. So how are you still trying to argue that Bradys ability isnt a big part as to why he is sacked as little as he is?

 

And I am sorry, NE had an atrocious defense last year and he still led them to a great record and nearly another SB win.

 

And yes, I am going to say in public that ALL QB's, Brady included, become a different QB when getting hit. To say only Brady does is silly. Brady just does such a good job of NOT getting hit as much by getting rid of the ball fast, reading the D, sliding in the pocket, making adjustments, etc. that it just doesn't happen that much, which is why NE wins so much. And yes, just like any other QB, when you get to Brady you can beat NE. But thats hard to do when your QB is ELITE and one of the best ever at getting rid of the ball BEFORE the pressure can reach him, sliding to avoid pressure and buy more time, making adjustments, etc.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Alphadawg7

[Kelly the Dog]

Sorry, let me rephrase...Cassell led the NFL in sacks while NE gave up the 5th most as a team...still Brady, was one of the LEAST sacked QB's behind the exact same line the year before and the year after...

 

2007 NE = 21 sacks allowed, 5th best in NFL

2008 NE = 48 sacks allowed, Cassell leads NFL in being sacked and NE is 5th most

2009 NE = 18 sacks allowed, 3rd best in NFL - and Brady was coming off a blown out NE and had LESS mobility than before as it was his first year back off the torn ACL.

 

The year after Cassel left NE when he was sacked 47 times, he threw less passes in KC and was sacked 42 times, for more sack yards than when on NE. Methinks maybe it is Matt Cassel. Thanks for playing.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Kelly the Dog