UConn James Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 There are more irregulars than you would think. Considering both the skill level of the workers and the conditions that they work in, there are more errors in manufacturing than you would think. The sites that sell jerseys with holograms may indeed be black market, and I cannot comment on that. What I can comment on though are the sights that sell discounted factory irregulars. There may a limited number of them, but the reality is that companies are allowed to keep and resell them locally. Its the same with Super Bowl Champion T-shirts that are made pre-game with the loser on the front. Those clothing items get donated overseas. The NFL doesn't want the irregular products being sold in Amercia for two reasons, 1.) because it is an inferior product, and 2.) because LEGALLY they cannot charge for it therefore they get cut out of the money. Your assumption that the NFL will cut ties with a company that produces irregulars is a bit naive. As for the widespread busts you speak about, I wonder how many of those places are selling knockoffs as the real thing? Thats fraud, and is most times what gets people busted. Selling of unlicensed goods as licensed ones is the issue that I think you have a problem with. The selling of factory irregulars, shouldn't be. But it seems like you are the type of person who is less interested in actual facts, than just being angry about people getting a deal. I bought 4 jerseys this year. They are all irregulars. I wear them on Sundays and spill hot sauce ketchup blue cheese and soda all over them. And I could care less. You know why? I paid $130 for 4 of them. If Im the problem, then fine. I committed no crime, and worked within the boundaries of the law that exists today. Its not the fault of the educated consumer that the NFL and the global market has not been able to catch up with the advent of the internet and international retail. The world wants China's cheap labor and cheaper products, but they also want to charge full price for everything. And in the modern world, that just isn't a reality. Listen, I'm not interested in your justifications. Make no mistake that you committed a crime. The or selling and buying of knock-off anything is illegal. If you are caught with DVDs of ripped and burned movies (and you don't have an original; at that, the current law seems to be that you can have one copy) you can be arrested --- you see that FBI/Interpol warning at the start of movies? Same stevestojan. You saying, "But it's not a real movie --- it's a photocopied dustjacket and a Magnavox DVD-R!" isn't a legal excuse.
nateodoms'bff Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I think what you're posting is exactly why there was such an uproar over SOPA. Many felt that placing the onus on site administrators was unfair. In this case, it would be the government blaming SDS and TBD for the actions of forum users. As of now, the government can't do that. Even the case against MegaUpload will be a contentious one where the government has to prove that DotCom willingly knew that his users were using his site to illegally upload pirated material. I know this may not be the right place, but pirated material is such a misnomer. If I upload a video clip of a Bills game that I took on my phone to youtube, is that pirated? If I upload a CD for a friend on Megaupload, is that pirated? Thinking that it is creates a slippery slope for private property and personal ownership. Its a scary future if this type of thinking becomes prevalent. Listen, I'm not interested in your justifications. Make no mistake that you committed a crime. The or selling and buying of knock-off anything is illegal. If you are caught with DVDs of ripped and burned movies (and you don't have an original; at that, the current law seems to be that you can have one copy) you can be arrested --- you see that FBI/Interpol warning at the start of movies? Same stevestojan. You saying, "But it's not a real movie --- it's a photocopied dustjacket and a Magnavox DVD-R!" isn't a legal excuse. Well you are just an angel, aren't you? Apparently reading comprehension and critical thinking skills are not prerequisites for getting your wings in heaven. Edited January 31, 2012 by nateodoms'bff
ThurmasThoman Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Listen, I'm not interested in your justifications. Make no mistake that you committed a crime. The or selling and buying of knock-off anything is illegal. If you are caught with DVDs of ripped and burned movies (and you don't have an original; at that, the current law seems to be that you can have one copy) you can be arrested --- you see that FBI/Interpol warning at the start of movies? Same stevestojan. You saying, "But it's not a real movie --- it's a photocopied dustjacket and a Magnavox DVD-R!" isn't a legal excuse. actually, this is completely incorrect. laws regarding counterfeit vary state to state, and even city by city. but they all agree on one thing: the OWNING AND PURCHASING of counterfeit goods is legal. the reselling of counterfeit goods for a PROFIT is illegal. with regards to making illegal the owning of counterfeit goods, as much of an inroad as anyone has made came in the city with this proposed law: http://www.lexisnexis.com/community/copyright-trademarklaw/blogs/graygoodfakegoods/archive/2011/04/28/proposed-new-york-city-bill-will-criminalize-purchase-of-counterfeit-goods.aspx which was never brought to a vote. the busts/raids/etc. that you hear about, such as this: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/21/feds-seize-counterfeit-tim-tebow-jerseys/ are targeting the merchants of such goods, who are clearly buying in bulk with the intention of, (and a clearly established distribution network to) move those jerseys. so while perhaps you may be morally opposed to the practice, it is NOT, in fact, illegal.
ieatcrayonz Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 I know this may not be the right place, but pirated material is such a misnomer. If I upload a video clip of a Bills game that I took on my phone to youtube, is that pirated? If I upload a CD for a friend on Megaupload, is that pirated? Thinking that it is creates a slippery slope for private property and personal ownership. Its a scary future if this type of thinking becomes prevalent. Maybe and yes. Read the licenses you agreed to upon purchase. There is no slippery slope because there is no difference between stealing music and stealing land if you are honest about it. Which is all fine and dandy in terms of protecting/upholding the law but why doesn't the NFL ask themselves why a black market even exists? You'd have to be a fool to believe that an authentic jersey should be priced at over $275, when it is often made by lowly-paid Chinese employees working in factories across from the ones the counterfeit ones are being made in. If they actually made jerseys that had a fair cost to them, the problem of counterfeiting wouldn't be so prevalent. We're not talking fake rolexes were the obvious lack of quality makes it a wasted purchase. We're talking about football jerseys. Some counterfeits look terrible, but some are very close to the original. The average person on a fixed income isn't going to care about hurting the NFL machine by buying a fake. They aren't educated on what conditions these jerseys are made in and, truth be told, sadly, they don't care. They would rather save the $150. Way to shift the blame from to the victim. They can charge what they want for their COPYRIGHTED material. I'm sure they have heard the term elasticity and understand it very well.
UConn James Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 actually, this is completely incorrect. laws regarding counterfeit vary state to state, and even city by city. but they all agree on one thing: the OWNING AND PURCHASING of counterfeit goods is legal. the reselling of counterfeit goods for a PROFIT is illegal. with regards to making illegal the owning of counterfeit goods, as much of an inroad as anyone has made came in the city with this proposed law: http://www.lexisnexis.com/community/copyright-trademarklaw/blogs/graygoodfakegoods/archive/2011/04/28/proposed-new-york-city-bill-will-criminalize-purchase-of-counterfeit-goods.aspx which was never brought to a vote. the busts/raids/etc. that you hear about, such as this: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/21/feds-seize-counterfeit-tim-tebow-jerseys/ are targeting the merchants of such goods, who are clearly buying in bulk with the intention of, (and a clearly established distribution network to) move those jerseys. so while perhaps you may be morally opposed to the practice, it is NOT, in fact, illegal. Touche. At this time, it is not illegal to purchase for personal use. I would say to those people who buy a number of jerseys for the bulk price, as I remember several people here said they do, and either give or sell (even for just the cost) jerseys to other people are committing a crime, according to lawyers on a few sites I've seen, as the text reads that this simple "distribution" qualifies as illegal in the flow of counterfeit material. But the point about the NFL not taking kindly to TBD not moderating threads that include links to Chinese counterfeiters and illegal game streams does stand. And this is subject to get much stickier whenever some derivative of SOPA passes.
purple haze Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Nike pushed the Uniform foundry this year with the University of Maryland Combat Uni's and as always the weekly University of Oregon Uniforms. Im looking forward to what Nike brings to the table in the coming months. Nike doesn't make Maryland's uniform. Maryland is outfitted by Under Amour.
CodeMonkey Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 You're touching on a sore subject to me WRT the laxity of TBD enforcing direct links to illegal activity in the area of copyright theft. Count on the NFL stepping up enforcement, and just bear in mind that many things on this site exist on the good graces of the NFL and the Bills alone. If you're intent on breaking the law, then so be it. I can't stop you. But don't bring it to this site's living room. There's plenty of other places online to discuss it where they don't care if their site gets shut down. Settle down Francis. Not only did I not give a direct link, I did not even give an indirect one.
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 You're touching on a sore subject to me WRT the laxity of TBD enforcing direct links to illegal activity in the area of copyright theft. Count on the NFL stepping up enforcement, and just bear in mind that many things on this site exist on the good graces of the NFL and the Bills alone. If you're intent on breaking the law, then so be it. I can't stop you. But don't bring it to this site's living room. There's plenty of other places online to discuss it where they don't care if their site gets shut down. You're right. We don't want buy counterfeit jerseys that are made in third-world countries by slave laborers that are only being paid pennies an hour. We want to buy REAL jerseys that are made in third-world countries by slave laborers that are only being paid pennies an hour.
CodeMonkey Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 How many "irregulars" do you really think there are? The hologram is a fake too. It's not the same as discount stores. Further, I doubt the NFL even allows the sale of "irregulars" rather than ordering to destroy them and scrapping a contract with a sub-par manufacturer. The 'Yippee! Cheap stuff! Who cares who gets hurt and what laws are broken in the process?!!?' attitude that pervades is sickening. You are absolutely correct, what the China sites that I have seen sell are not marked as irregulars. They have the holographic seal, tags, and everything else that would make someone think it came from Nike or Reebok. The attitude that anything the NFL does is good, including making a 1000% or more profit on merchandise and blackouts, is also sickening to me anyway. If the NFL charged a reasonable price for the jerseys in the first place, there would be no market for counterfeit ones and we would not even be having this discussion. And regarding the 10 year olds in China, who do you think makes the jerseys for Reebok or Nike?
Wayne Cubed Posted February 1, 2012 Author Posted February 1, 2012 I also find it interesting that the jersey's that are actually worn by the players aren't all made by Reebok or Nike. A lot of them are made by smaller manufacturers. Hence the difference in quality and fit. But per the licensing agreement, they are required to put the Nike or Reebok logo on the player worn jersey, so that you the consumer see that and in turn go and shell out $200 plus dollars for a jersey. Brilliant!
EasternOHBillsFan Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 You're right. We don't want buy counterfeit jerseys that are made in third-world countries by slave laborers that are only being paid pennies an hour. We want to buy REAL jerseys that are made in third-world countries by slave laborers that are only being paid pennies an hour. Spot on. If there was any true justice, the NFL manufacturers would be the very first to be held to account. +1.
ieatcrayonz Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 The attitude that anything the NFL does is good, including making a 1000% or more profit on merchandise and blackouts, is also sickening to me anyway. If the NFL charged a reasonable price for the jerseys in the first place, there would be no market for counterfeit ones and we would not even be having this discussion. And regarding the 10 year olds in China, who do you think makes the jerseys for Reebok or Nike? I am not aware of any law forcing any company to sell only things that are "good". If you don't like the product or think it costs too much then don't buy it. Your perception of a product's value does not justify someone stealing the licensed property of the NFL, a music company or anyone else.
CodeMonkey Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 I am not aware of any law forcing any company to sell only things that are "good". If you don't like the product or think it costs too much then don't buy it. Your perception of a product's value does not justify someone stealing the licensed property of the NFL, a music company or anyone else. I don't buy it, because it is obscenely overpriced. My perception of a products value does drive my decision to buy or not buy a product. It also drives my decision to buy or not buy a counterfeit. I understand that the companies making the counterfeit jerseys are illegally reproducing the licensed property of the NFL. But when I see a 1000% markup (not all to the NFL, Reebok/Nike gets their cut too) on any product, I have no issue breaking the law that benefits the price gouger.
Wayne Cubed Posted February 1, 2012 Author Posted February 1, 2012 I don't buy it, because it is obscenely overpriced. My perception of a products value does drive my decision to buy or not buy a product. It also drives my decision to buy or not buy a counterfeit. I understand that the companies making the counterfeit jerseys are illegally reproducing the licensed property of the NFL. But when I see a 1000% markup (not all to the NFL, Reebok/Nike gets their cut too) on any product, I have no issue breaking the law that benefits the price gouger. And technically, as mentioned earlier in this thread, you the consumer are not breaking the law by buying counterfeits. The person selling them and manufacturing them is. Really its just a moral issue. Is it morally wrong to buy something that is keeping money out of the pockets of companies who already have billions of dollars?
ieatcrayonz Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 I don't buy it, because it is obscenely overpriced. My perception of a products value does drive my decision to buy or not buy a product. It also drives my decision to buy or not buy a counterfeit. I understand that the companies making the counterfeit jerseys are illegally reproducing the licensed property of the NFL. But when I see a 1000% markup (not all to the NFL, Reebok/Nike gets their cut too) on any product, I have no issue breaking the law that benefits the price gouger. All of that is well and good but still does not justify the theft of licensed material. Technically, I don't think you broke any laws, just the manufacturer did. You can decide whether supporting criminals by buying their stuff bothers you or not. If you ever end up in a position where you own a license or copyright after building a brand for 50 years, remember not to whine when someone else puts in no work and simply steals it from you. And technically, as mentioned earlier in this thread, you the consumer are not breaking the law by buying counterfeits. The person selling them and manufacturing them is. Really its just a moral issue. Is it morally wrong to buy something that is keeping money out of the pockets of companies who already have billions of dollars? Right on man. They have already made enough money from the product they conceived and produced. They should sell it all at cost or better yet give it away free from now on.
EasternOHBillsFan Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 All of that is well and good but still does not justify the theft of licensed material. Technically, I don't think you broke any laws, just the manufacturer did. You can decide whether supporting criminals by buying their stuff bothers you or not. If you ever end up in a position where you own a license or copyright after building a brand for 50 years, remember not to whine when someone else puts in no work and simply steals it from you. The real criminals are those who choose to manufacture their goods for slave wages, be it counterfeiters or legit manufacturers... there is no difference other than profit margin.
Cookiemonster Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Listen, I'm not interested in your justifications. Make no mistake that you committed a crime. The or selling and buying of knock-off anything is illegal. If you are caught with DVDs of ripped and burned movies (and you don't have an original; at that, the current law seems to be that you can have one copy) you can be arrested --- you see that FBI/Interpol warning at the start of movies? Same stevestojan. You saying, "But it's not a real movie --- it's a photocopied dustjacket and a Magnavox DVD-R!" isn't a legal excuse. Sargent Friday? Joe Friday, is that you? Is that according to the California Penal Code? Edited February 1, 2012 by Cookiemonster
CodeMonkey Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 All of that is well and good but still does not justify the theft of licensed material. Technically, I don't think you broke any laws, just the manufacturer did. You can decide whether supporting criminals by buying their stuff bothers you or not. If you ever end up in a position where you own a license or copyright after building a brand for 50 years, remember not to whine when someone else puts in no work and simply steals it from you. I am in the software business and that happens all the time. Not after 50 years, but the same principle. You learn to make a better product at a better price than the competition rather than hide behind the skirts of the law in order to survive. Particularly in the current global economy. In my opinion if the NFL is concerned with the counterfeits, the best business approach is to deliver a better product, which in my experience the quality of the counterfeits is basically the same, and/or become price competitive, which they clearly are not even in the same universe. Who would bother ordering one from China if you could walk into the Bills store and get one immediately for roughly the same price. 1000% markup buys them a lot of leeway however. If a substantial number of people feel the way that you do (or don't even know about the counterfeits) and buy the licensed product they can afford to ignore the counterfeiters.
nrod424 Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Am I going to be the one that points out that these look like they were computer generated? I doubt they would ever look that good, and these are probably as credible as those nike jerseys that were going around the web the past few years .
ieatcrayonz Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 The real criminals are those who choose to manufacture their goods for slave wages, be it counterfeiters or legit manufacturers... there is no difference other than profit margin. I agree with that to a great degree although I think there are many factors in play not all of which are the fault of the NFL or under its control. I am in the software business and that happens all the time. Not after 50 years, but the same principle. You learn to make a better product at a better price than the competition rather than hide behind the skirts of the law in order to survive. Particularly in the current global economy. In my opinion if the NFL is concerned with the counterfeits, the best business approach is to deliver a better product, which in my experience the quality of the counterfeits is basically the same, and/or become price competitive, which they clearly are not even in the same universe. Who would bother ordering one from China if you could walk into the Bills store and get one immediately for roughly the same price. 1000% markup buys them a lot of leeway however. If a substantial number of people feel the way that you do (or don't even know about the counterfeits) and buy the licensed product they can afford to ignore the counterfeiters. So you publish your source code to the web because someone is just going to steal it anyway and why hide behind a skirt when you can just write more code? Competition is one thing; theft is another.
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