richNjoisy Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 K. Simmons [steelers] (#30 overall), 2002 L. Mankins [Pats] (#32 overall), 2005 D. Joseph [bucs] (#23 overall), 2006 B. Grubbs [Ravens] (#29 overall), 2007 M. Iupati [49ers] (17th overall), 2010 D. Watkins [Eagles] (#23 overall), 2011 These are the only guards taken in the first round of the draft in the last 10 years. Do you see any from the top 10? I know this has been argued a lot but I still can't get it into my head where the "line" is between a player who can play Guard and a player who can play tackle. Is it arm length? Strength? Body size? Balance? Plus - I take it even the most staunch advocate for drafting a tackle way before a guard - HAS to have a point where an extremely gifted guard is better than a mediocre tackle. So, to the guard advocates - how good is DeCastro and is there some point where even HE is a better option at tackle than some other player that is more natural at the tackle position? The argument here from the "tackle" people (such as Kaenon I assume) is that Reiff and Martin are much better tackles than DeCastro at tackle AND are much better tackles than Levitre at tackle too (right, Kaenon? I don't want to put words in your mouth). My own position is to draft the best player available if within reason (such as, no kickers in the 1st round). If Decastro is head and shoulders better than anyone else...I am all for drafting him even if it is a position of strength. I am sure this is where my opinion is quite different from the "tackle" people but I would prefer to draft the best players and fill in with best available at position of need (draft or FA) rather than let that great player slip to another team. So, I am fine with drafting DeCastro at 10. My 2 cents
KD in CA Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 K. Simmons [steelers] (#30 overall), 2002 L. Mankins [Pats] (#32 overall), 2005 D. Joseph [bucs] (#23 overall), 2006 B. Grubbs [Ravens] (#29 overall), 2007 M. Iupati [49ers] (17th overall), 2010 D. Watkins [Eagles] (#23 overall), 2011 These are the only guards taken in the first round of the draft in the last 10 years. Do you see any from the top 10? Yeah, I'm sure glad the Bills never 'reached' for guys like Joseph, Grubbs or Mankins.
KOKBILLS Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Levitre did fine at LT the end of last year. Andy at LT and DiCastro at LG would be better than Reiff or Martin at LT. Levitre is a LT in a pinch only...He's not an NFL regular Starting LT and he will not be OK there if he's moved...This much I promise each and every member of this board...He's not long enough, or athletic enough to be a Starting LT in the NFL...If he was long enough and athletic enough, HE WOULD BE A LT ALREADY...It's not like The Bills are loaded at LT...If Levitre was good enough, he would already be there... Now I do agree that he may very well be as good as Martin or Reiff, especially in their Rookie years...I'm not OK with taking either of them at #10 overall...But I'm not OK with DeCastro either, especially considering there are other players who should be available at #10 that will have FAR more impact (ie...Kuechly, Gilmore, Floyd)...
robertpaul49 Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Tackles are more important because they get less help. The Bills have already spent high draft picks on a couple of guards. I can't believe I'm on the same board. For years, the people on this board have been complaining about the play of the offensive line, and now that the Bills are most likely going to select a left tackle in the first round, nobody wants them to. Martin is going to be the draft pick. He may not ever get to a pro bowl or become a hall of famer, but I think the Bills offense will play better with a real left tackle. He or Reiff will be better than any offensive tackle the Bills can get in free agency, lower in the draft or already on the team. The Bills have not pursued any offensive tackles in free agency. The Bills have only marginally tried to sign Bell, kind of like the offer they provided to Whitner. Since Nix said that a team cannot have enough tackles, they will be drafting two tackles in this years draft, and I think that if Martin is available, he will be one. Martin needs to work on his strength, but which player coming from college doesn't, which is why there are training paid for by the team. As far as DeCastro, can someone explain to me why the Bills should draft him instead of Richardson or Barron? Heck, why don't we move Wood to left tackle? Why not play Chandler at left tackle since it doesn't matter who the left tackle is for Chan's offense. As the ghost of posters past, I'm begging OBD to finally draft a left tackle so we can finally rest after years of torment of the Bills selecting Mike Williams over Bryant McKinnie.
Kaenon Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 I know this has been argued a lot but I still can't get it into my head where the "line" is between a player who can play Guard and a player who can play tackle. Is it arm length? Strength? Body size? Balance? Plus - I take it even the most staunch advocate for drafting a tackle way before a guard - HAS to have a point where an extremely gifted guard is better than a mediocre tackle. So, to the guard advocates - how good is DeCastro and is there some point where even HE is a better option at tackle than some other player that is more natural at the tackle position? The argument here from the "tackle" people (such as Kaenon I assume) is that Reiff and Martin are much better tackles than DeCastro at tackle AND are much better tackles than Levitre at tackle too (right, Kaenon? I don't want to put words in your mouth). My own position is to draft the best player available if within reason (such as, no kickers in the 1st round). If Decastro is head and shoulders better than anyone else...I am all for drafting him even if it is a position of strength. I am sure this is where my opinion is quite different from the "tackle" people but I would prefer to draft the best players and fill in with best available at position of need (draft or FA) rather than let that great player slip to another team. So, I am fine with drafting DeCastro at 10. My 2 cents I'm not sure. Offensive line is where I know the least about talent at the position/ where a guy should project to play on the line whether its based on game time, intangibles, measurables, etc. All I can do is look back through the past years drafts and see that no "labeled" guard was taken that high. When it comes to evaluating offensive lineman, I will admit that I don't know much. Yeah, I'm sure glad the Bills never 'reached' for guys like Joseph, Grubbs or Mankins. The Bills have other needs mores than guard. The teams that picked those guys had good years the previous year and didn't need to make a flashy pick.
Dragonborn10 Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 I know this has been argued a lot but I still can't get it into my head where the "line" is between a player who can play Guard and a player who can play tackle. Is it arm length? Strength? Body size? Balance? Plus - I take it even the most staunch advocate for drafting a tackle way before a guard - HAS to have a point where an extremely gifted guard is better than a mediocre tackle. So, to the guard advocates - how good is DeCastro and is there some point where even HE is a better option at tackle than some other player that is more natural at the tackle position? The argument here from the "tackle" people (such as Kaenon I assume) is that Reiff and Martin are much better tackles than DeCastro at tackle AND are much better tackles than Levitre at tackle too (right, Kaenon? I don't want to put words in your mouth). My own position is to draft the best player available if within reason (such as, no kickers in the 1st round). If Decastro is head and shoulders better than anyone else...I am all for drafting him even if it is a position of strength. I am sure this is where my opinion is quite different from the "tackle" people but I would prefer to draft the best players and fill in with best available at position of need (draft or FA) rather than let that great player slip to another team. So, I am fine with drafting DeCastro at 10. My 2 cents Quick feet, long arms, good bend at the waist and knees, and lastly strength are the important tackle attributes Guards need quick explosive force that usually comes from lower body strength and leverage
PDaDdy Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 If we are going OL at number 10 why not get the best lineman in the draft? This guy will be a perennial all pro. Beats trying to pickup an LT that provides depth. I know we have a number of guards but DeCastro, Wood and Levitre in the middle would be solid. Hands down he is the BPA at number 10 and an immediate starter. Pears is solid at RT, Hairston should suffice at LT and we can get depth in rd 2, 3, 4 or 5. Because he is a guard!
KD in CA Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 The Bills have other needs mores than guard. The teams that picked those guys had good years the previous year and didn't need to make a flashy pick. Because having a bad year means you need to make a 'flashy' pick in the following draft?? Yeah, that strategy has certainly served the Bills well.
Kaenon Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Because having a bad year means you need to make a 'flashy' pick in the following draft?? Yeah, that strategy has certainly served the Bills well. Sometimes you just need to make moves to put people's butts in the seats. What I meant was, Buffalo has needs at T, LB and WR before drafting a guard.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 If you ask me (and yes I do believe decastro will be good) drafting a guard is akin to drafting Spiller a couple of years ago -- drafting into a position of strength. The Bills are not good enough to do that yet. This team has definitive needs -- Tackle, WR, CB and that is where we should be looking. It's not a position of strength if Wood can't play like Wood could and Urbik has to be moved to center. That's something we won't know and management will only have limited insight into by draft day. It certainly should be a concern.
KD in CA Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Sometimes you just need to make moves to put people's butts in the seats. No, you don't. You need to draft solid guys so you can build a solid team. Wins put people's butt in the seats, not gimmicks. Following this foolish line of thinking is how the Bills got to 12 years without a playoff apperance. What I meant was, Buffalo has needs at T, LB and WR before drafting a guard. Fine. Than state your case for who is a better alternative at #10 and why.
Kaenon Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) No, you don't. You need to draft solid guys so you can build a solid team. Wins put people's butt in the seats, not gimmicks. Following this foolish line of thinking is how the Bills got to 12 years without a playoff appearance. Fine. Than state your case for who is a better alternative at #10 and why. I don't agree with picking someone in the draft or signing someone (T.O.) just to fill seats. Its just part of marketing and it happens all the time for teams that are struggling and going through low points. It happens and I don't agree with it. My pick at #10 obviously depends on who would be available at that point and time. Within trying to be reasonable, let's say... 1.) Luck 2.) RG3 3.) Kalil 4-9. (in no particular order) Claiborne, Blackmon, Richardson, Tannehill, Reiff and Coples/Ingram. If Coples was chosen and Ingram was available, I'd think about it, but not the other way around. From what the draft world has been saying about our pick at 10, this would leave us with our choice of Floyd, Kuechly, DeCastro, Brockers, Martin or Kirkpatrick. I really don't want any of these guys at 10 and I would want to trade down. If I couldn't trade down, I would have to pick between Ingram and Gilmore actually, with a flyer on Floyd as well. Gilmore is underrated and McGee and Florence are getting older. Aaron Williams will be a good player for us and Justin Rogers will have a role. Not sure what will become of McKelvin, but I would most strongly consider Gilmore/Ingram/Floyd. Edited March 27, 2012 by Kaenon
KOKBILLS Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 I would most strongly consider Gilmore/Ingram/Floyd. I'd throw Kuechly in for Ingram...I just don't think Ingram fits an NFL 4-3 well enough...But still, I pretty much agree with you...
John from Riverside Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Levitre did fine at LT the end of last year. Andy at LT and DiCastro at LG would be better than Reiff or Martin at LT. Not really Andy Levitre is great a a EMERGENCY left tackle....but is awesome as LG Martin....for all of the bashing he is taking right now...when he puts on some strength is gonna be a decent LT.....he just probably would not be great in his first couple of years Draft picks are about long term thinking....not just the 1st year
The Senator Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) I've been predicting DeCastro as Buddy's #1 pick since early February... Dude is a 'can't-miss-zero-bust-potential' successful round-one selection, a guaranteed year-one starter (and guaranteed future 10-year all-pro) at right guard, can certainly also play center year one if we need to 'spell' Eric Wood for any length of time - and has the size, strength, speed, skills, mean streak, and certainly the 'smarts' to learn and excel at just about any o-line task the Bills envision for him over time. Link -2012 NFL Draft: David DeCastro And The Power O Run Play Link - 2012 NFL Scouting Combine - David DeCastro Just think of the holes this guy's gonna blast open for Freddie & CJ, the yardage and rushing TDs they'll pile on, and how that steady punishing running game will allow Fitz & Stevie to exploit the big pass play... GO BILLSSS!!!! "I expect to be undefeated...I expect to win every game!" - Chan Gailey 19 and 0 baby!!!!! Edited March 27, 2012 by The Senator
26TrapDraw Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) If you ask me (and yes I do believe decastro will be good) drafting a guard is akin to drafting Spiller a couple of years ago -- drafting into a position of strength. The Bills are not good enough to do that yet. This team has definitive needs -- Tackle, WR, CB and that is where we should be looking. I agree 100% with this teams needs my problem is no one that we can draft at #10 makes me think they will be plugged in as a starter and be good from day one. Floyd? or the tackles martin, reiff...does any of those guys make you think ok filled that spot..next...thats my problem with our needs vs available "need" players...kinda sux actually. Edited March 27, 2012 by LVBillsBackr
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Look. Our community here last year dubbed the Bills' offensive line "The rooster Blockers" because of Wood, Levitre, and partly due to the departed Ed Wang. As such, you can't draft a player whose name (DeCastro) sounds like castrate. You just can't do it. If you ask me (and yes I do believe decastro will be good) drafting a guard is akin to drafting Spiller a couple of years ago -- drafting into a position of strength. The Bills are not good enough to do that yet. This team has definitive needs -- Tackle, WR, CB and that is where we should be looking. Ironically the argument that Spiller was not a good pick gets weaker with each passing month. Between the glimpses of brilliance we saw from him in the last 8 games and the fact that Freddie went down injured, the Spiller pick keeps looking better… and is an argument for taking the best player available, regardless of position. I've come out against the drafting of DeCastro on several occasions for several reasons: 1) They have the least value of any player on the offensive line. Tackles and centers are typically the only O-linemen drafted highly… guards seldom so. 2) As Buddy Nix and others have stated, it's better to draft a tackle and if he can't cut it on the outside, move him to guard. This is what happened to Robert Gallery and he's a very good guard. Carl Nicks and Jahri Evans are examples of former tackles turned Pro Bowl guards. They also happen to be the two highest paid guards in the NFL. BTW, this is an argument for drafting a guy like Reilly Reiff. 3) The Bills have quality AND depth on the interior O-line: Urbik, Wood, Levitre, Rinehart, Brown… that's 5 good players for 3 spots. I'm sure that Buddy will not draft DeCastro but seeing as the DeCastrophiles on our board can't seem to make a cogent argument for taking him, I'll do the work for you: DeCastro has said that he'd play center if the team which drafts him wants him to. He also said that he could envision himself as a center and there are rumors that some NFL teams have him projected as such. So you DeCastrophiles have some fresh fuel… the Bills have a chance to draft the next Nick Mangold… and a great insurance policy if Wood's rehab goes slowly. But just remember that we're talking about "The rooster Blockers" and a guy whose name sounds like castrate. Edited March 27, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan
Best Player Available Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I'd throw Kuechly in for Ingram...I just don't think Ingram fits an NFL 4-3 well enough...But still, I pretty much agree with you... I predict we see the name Kuechly 100 times before the draft, Why? Because some talking head moved him up and he's the flavor of the week. It's like a school of sardines, here. Personally, if a guard is the least risk and BTW our right guard is not really even a pro bowl consideration, do it. Fill in the holes on 2-7. A couple of grade A free agent signings has not put us on a super bowl track quite yet. I'd like to sooner rather than later get a stud Q-Back. I'm very excited about 2012 but were a couple of bears short of a 6 pack yet. At least we will be competitive. A can't miss guard isn't going to hurt at all.
The Senator Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Look. Our community here last year dubbed the Bills' offensive line "The rooster Blockers" because of Wood, Levitre, and partly due to the departed Ed Wang. As such, you can't draft a player whose name (DeCastro) sounds like castrate. You just can't do it. Ironically the argument that Spiller was not a good pick gets weaker with each passing month. Between the glimpses of brilliance we saw from him in the last 8 games and the fact that Freddie went down injured, the Spiller pick keeps looking better… and is an argument for taking the best player available, regardless of position. I've come out against the drafting of DeCastro on several occasions for several reasons: 1) They have the least value of any player on the offensive line. Tackles and centers are typically the only O-linemen drafted highly… guards seldom so. 2) As Buddy Nix and others have stated, it's better to draft a tackle and if he can't cut it on the outside, move him to guard. This is what happened to Robert Gallery and he's a very good guard. Carl Nicks and Jahri Evans are examples of former tackles turned Pro Bowl guards. They also happen to be the two highest paid guards in the NFL. BTW, this is an argument for drafting a guy like Reilly Reiff. 3) The Bills have quality AND depth on the interior O-line: Urbik, Wood, Levitre, Rinehart, Brown… that's 5 good players for 3 spots. I'm sure that Buddy will not draft DeCastro but seeing as the DeCastrophiles on our board can't seem to make a cogent argument for taking him, I'll do the work for you: DeCastro has said that he'd play center if the team which drafts him wants him to. He also said that he could envision himself as a center and there are rumors that some NFL teams have him projected as such. So you DeCastrophiles have some fresh fuel… the Bills have a chance to draft the next Nick Mangold… and a great insurance policy if Wood's rehab goes slowly. But just remember that we're talking about "The rooster Blockers" and a guy whose name sounds like castrate. Your argument is non-compelling, SJBF. If you are so bothered by the man's surname, the problem is very easily ameliorated. Draft Decastro with the #10 pick in round one and, on day 3, simply... Adcock Levy Adcock, who did not receive a combine invitation to the surprise of many, also proved he's next-level material. The big lineman looked terrific in bag drills and moved around the field with ease. As described by those at the workout, Adcock is more athletic than given credit for and can line up at any of three positions on the offensive line. The prevailing thought is Adcock will be selected at the start of the draft's final day. (link - SI)
KOKBILLS Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I predict we see the name Kuechly 100 times before the draft, Why? Because some talking head moved him up and he's the flavor of the week. It's like a school of sardines, here. Personally, if a guard is the least risk and BTW our right guard is not really even a pro bowl consideration, do it. Fill in the holes on 2-7. Seriously? Are you kidding me? Did you watch the Combine and listen to Mayock's take on Kuechly? He LOVES Kuechly...Some Scouts have been SUPER high on him for a while now...I'm still not sure I want The Bills to Draft him...But he's Top 15 in almost any Draft Publication you can find...And he's rated ahead of DeCastro (I'm assuming that is the OG you are referring to) as much as DeCastro is rated ahead of him... And Sardines? WTF does that mean anyway? This is what I just pulled off Google in 2 minutes... PFW - Kuechly 8th, DeCastro 10th Great Blue North - Kuechly 9th, DeCastro 11th WalterFootball - Kuechly 7th, DeCastro 11th Drafttek - Kuechly 7th, DeCastro 9th fftoolbox - Kuechly 14th, DeCastro 13th NFL.com's Bucky Brooks (yes THAT Bucky Brooks) - Kuechly 13th, DeCastro 11th CBS.com - Kuechly 14th, DeCastro 13th Just saying...
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