Trayvon Martin Case

[GG]

Ever hear of the term, "The lady doth protest?"

 

I don't need you to bring up your posts 100 - 400, because the operative one is post #2, where you gladly jumped on the media craze about a white guy with a fixation on black kids killing a teenager in cold blood. I will give you credit for taking a step back from your initial hysteria, but that's not what I was referring to with these words:

 

 

when you were among the first on this site to pick up the media narrative of a cold blooded murder of an innocent black teenager, before any of the facts started coming out ...

 

But it's also funny how you're going through mental acrobatics to deflect Martin's role in the case and lay majority of blame on Zimmerman, because he was better armed and resorted to lethal force in the end. You also fail to see that this incident is more of a cultural difference than a racial one. You seem to be ok with the ethos that Zimmerman should have manned up and taken his beating. Many others, including Zimmerman, don't understand that ethos. You laugh off AD's assertions that a 35 year old could be scared enough of teenagers that he needed to be armed. You totally ignore the escalation in crimes in the neighborhood preceding the shooting and why Zimmerman got the gun in the first place. You then blame Zimmerman for escalating the incident, when the timeline and map of the complex puts the escalation burden squarely on Martin.

 

Thus, the supposition to defend Zimmerman as justified is based on the sprinkling out of the evidence that he was the one attacked and beaten, and then used lethal force. As per Florida laws, he was within his rights if that's what happened. Now the courts will have to decide it, and everyone here is ok with that. What people are not ok with, is the continuing misrepresentation that Zimmerman shot a cherubic teenager wearing a hoodie, in cold blood, because he didn't like black kids walking around in the rain.

[3rdnlng]

How do you know this? Simple question. Just give me a simple answer.

 

 

 

We'll try this one more time? I haven't disrespected you. Show the same courtesy. Otherwise, just don't respond to my posts. You wouldn't say it to my face. Why be disingenuous here?

 

 

 

How do you know this? Simple question.

 

Your entire post is based on a singular assumption that you don't know to be true but yet you refuse to let go of:

 

Assumption: Trayvon later attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman de-escalated the confrontation and was returning to his vehicle.

 

How do you know that to be true and why do you assume it?

 

*If you make your response personal again, just do us both a favor and save the response. I'm trying to keep it respectful with you. Hopefully you can contain your emotions and just answer my simple question*

 

 

 

WHAT ASSAULT COMMITTED BY MARTIN?!?!?!

 

How do you know that Zimmerman didn't encounter Trayvon again, push or swing at him, and then get his ass kicked. An "assault" is a legal term that doesn't mean someone was punched in the face. It requires "intent." How can you ascribe "intent" to Martin if you don't know what transpired priorly?

 

And are you sure you don't mean "battery"? Anyway, same point applies.

 

The only people presuming anything here is you and everyone else who keeps saying that Martin assaulted anyone. PROVE IT!

 

It is unbelieveable that people can literally create a narrative, say it enough times, and then address it as fact.

 

I HAVE BEEN THE ONLY ONE SAYING THAT NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN ZIMMERMAN FOLLOWING MARTIN AND THE SUBSEQUENT ALTERCATION.

 

10 other people here speak on that interim period as if they know factually what happened. And, to add insult to injury, they use their SUPPOSITION to substantiate why Zimmerman was justified in his actions.

 

It feels like the fu(king "Twilight Zone" in here.

 

 

LIke you, I was at first calling for letting the actual facts dictate the assignment of guilt. I, of course, still am. The facts that have come out would indicate that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle, followed Martin, called 911, and was told that he didn't need to follow him. If I remember correctly Zimmerman then went to the corner to get an address for the police and headed back to his vehicle. According to Zimmerman as he approached his vehicle Martin attacked him. The pictures of his broken and bloody nose, along with the cuts and scrapes to the back of his head are consistent with his story. I'm sure there is quite a bit of evidence that we haven't seen, but with what we think we know now, with the existing Florida law, there is nothing that would convict Zimmerman.

[Juror#8]

Ever hear of the term, "The lady doth protest?"

I don't need you to bring up your posts 100 - 400, because the operative one is post #2, where you gladly jumped on the media craze about a white guy with a fixation on black kids killing a teenager in cold blood. I will give you credit for taking a step back from your initial hysteria, but that's not what I was referring to with these words:

 

 

when you were among the first on this site to pick up the media narrative of a cold blooded murder of an innocent black teenager, before any of the facts started coming out ...

 

I quoted my statement. You very clearly see the use of the word "apparently." I even defined "apparent" for you so that you could see that the statement presupposed incomplete evidence, and an incomplete understanding of the issue.

 

Not sure what else I can do.

 

But it's also funny how you're going through mental acrobatics to deflect Martin's role in the case and lay majority of blame on Zimmerman, because he was better armed and resorted to lethal force in the end. You also fail to see that this incident is more of a cultural difference than a racial one. You seem to be ok with the ethos that Zimmerman should have manned up and taken his beating. Many others, including Zimmerman, don't understand that ethos. You laugh off AD's assertions that a 35 year old could be scared enough of teenagers that he needed to be armed. You totally ignore the escalation in crimes in the neighborhood preceding the shooting and why Zimmerman got the gun in the first place. You then blame Zimmerman for escalating the incident, when the timeline and map of the complex puts the escalation burden squarely on Martin.

 

I never blamed Zimmerman. I only said that the last thing we know for sure was that he got out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon. Something happened (that no one knows) between Zimmerman following Trayvon and the altercation happening.

 

With respect to "take his ass whoopin," I VERY clearly stated that the reasonable 35 year old 190 lb. man would not have an apprehension of serious bodily injury or worse from a 150 lb. 17 year old dude punching him. He has hands and can defend himself. So he should have FOUGHT BACK, or, take an ass whoopin.

 

But shooting the kid was the B word way out.

 

That is not "hood ethos." That is a man talking. Sorry IF you weren't raised to defend yourself with your bare hands. I bet if it happens in a bar in you local watering hole it's just "good ole' boys being rowdy."

 

But then again, those Joe Americans wouldn't have stalked anyone to fight them (and of course Trayvon did and you can prove it, right?)

 

Anyway...

 

You're trying to create my argument for me again, and then debate a bastardized point.

 

You don't have to ascribe words to me, just read what I said yesterday:

 

I don't know how many times Trayvon had been there, and at night, and with the rain; he could have easily found himself walking in circles, back at the same point, and Zimmerman yelling out at him "___________________"

 

On the other hand, Trayvon could have stalked Zimmerman back to that location and pounced.

 

I have said, ONLY, that we don't know. Everyone else is talking as if they do know and it is collectively against Trayvon.

 

You're literally making things up. You're lying to fit a narrative. I've told you (supported with my actual words) what I've said, and you're comfortable with these bastardized interpretations that you enjoy arguing against.

 

MY words again:

 

I don't know how many times Trayvon had been there, and at night, and with the rain; he could have easily found himself walking in circles, back at the same point, and Zimmerman yelling out at him "___________________"

 

On the other hand, Trayvon could have stalked Zimmerman back to that location and pounced.

 

I have said, ONLY, that we don't know. Everyone else is talking as if they do know and it is collectively against Trayvon.

 

How do you know that Zimmerman didn't continue following Trayvon, they encountered one another, a fisticuff ensued, Zimmerman felt he was over-matched and ran in a different direction where the matter escalated.

 

There were quite a few minutes between when the call ended and when police arrived.

 

You are the only one assuming facts. I just say that "I don't know" and move on.

 

Again, you are the ONLY one assuming anything. And you are trying to protect those whose assumptions are in league with yours. To the point that you're actually criticizing me for saying "draw no assumptions," "let the facts develop," "we don't know what happened."

 

Thus, the supposition to defend Zimmerman as justified is based on the sprinkling out of the evidence that he was the one attacked and beaten, and then used lethal force. As per Florida laws, he was within his rights if that's what happened. Now the courts will have to decide it, and everyone here is ok with that. What people are not ok with, is the continuing misrepresentation that Zimmerman shot a cherubic teenager wearing a hoodie, in cold blood, because he didn't like black kids walking around in the rain.

 

As between you and I, you are the only one fixated with this point. It doesn't concern me in the least. But it serves as the foundation for your bias so champion it.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Juror#8

[Juror#8]

LIke you, I was at first calling for letting the actual facts dictate the assignment of guilt. I, of course, still am. The facts that have come out would indicate that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle, followed Martin, called 911, and was told that he didn't need to follow him. If I remember correctly Zimmerman then went to the corner to get an address for the police and headed back to his vehicle. According to Zimmerman as he approached his vehicle Martin attacked him. The pictures of his broken and bloody nose, along with the cuts and scrapes to the back of his head are consistent with his story. I'm sure there is quite a bit of evidence that we haven't seen, but with what we think we know now, with the existing Florida law, there is nothing that would convict Zimmerman.

 

Check out this minute-by-minute account:

 

http://viewfromll2.c...-martins-death/

 

It may be worth fact-checking to ensure accuracy, but it just appears to me, as if Martin was trying to flee Zimmerman and they circled back to one another inadvertently.

 

His girlfriend , on the ohone with him, and the only one who has any knowledge of Martin's state of mind during that interim period, has said that Tryavon was saying things like:

 

Approx. 7:12pm [+ or - 59 seconds off of 7:12pm, from the time as recorded by Zimmerman's call to police. Exact time unknown]: The original phone call that Trayvon made to Dee, which lasted 18 minutes, is disconnected. Almost immediately after that phone call ends, DeeDee calls Trayvon back. He answers, and DeeDee reports that he says to her, “I think this dude is following me.” She says that she tells him “Run!” and that Trayvon responded that he’s not going to run, he’s just going to walk fast.

 

Read that entire accounting. It just seems like there is more to this story than meets the eye.

 

I'm NOT saying you 3rd, but I think there are a few people here giving Zimmerman an odd benefit of the doubt that he doesn't deserve. I can't place my finger on why though I suspect what the issue is. But before I started asking questions in this thread, people were universally responding to me that Trayvon had attacked Zimmerman.

 

That's sad. And not a fact.

 

He fleed Zimmerman for a reason.

 

And when the stakes are this high, no one should be conferred that benefit. The process needs to play out fairly.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Juror#8

[GG]

And then you wonder why lawyers take a pounding for inventing questions like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

Yes, I have a bias against lazy, sloppy journalism and people who sop in it. I didn't have an emotional attachment to the case and I didn't stake out a claim when the news first broke that I needed to walk back my initial comments. Yet, I'm the one who's fixated on it?

 

As for the culture, you can't seem to get away from the machismo. I was not brought up in an environment where I needed to defend myself with my bare hands. Nor have I lived in a place where I would have been compelled to carry a concealed weapon for protection. Comparing this situation to a barroom brawl or a fight on a basketball court is ridiculous, but you may want to ask Ray Lewis how bar brawls may end up.

 

You are imparting a lot of value judgments on Zimmerman's decision to get a gun and then use it when he was overmatched. As for your latest theory of why the ending occurred closer to the car than when Zimmerman first reported Martin's sighting -

 

"How do you know that Zimmerman didn't continue following Trayvon, they encountered one another, a fisticuff ensued, Zimmerman felt he was over-matched and ran back to his vehicle where the matter escalated."

 

Isn't the above a greater burden on Martin to walk away from an incident, instead of following the guy who you just beat up to give him a bigger beating? To me that's even a greater justification for Zimmerman to shoot in self defense.

[Juror#8]

You are correct.

 

My other favorite "description" from one page back;

 

 

 

LOL.

 

Its all in the presentation ladies and gentlemen, it makes it very easy to spot the bias.

 

.

 

This is really sad and I hope that you've considered what you're saying, and how inconsiderately you're acting (in consideration of the subject matter). People just shouldn't act in this neanderthalic way around a subject matter of this particular depth and moment.

 

As I said, "blithley":

 

http://viewfromll2.c...-martins-death/

 

6:54pm: Trayvon makes a call to “DeeDee,” a minor female that has been reported as his girlfriend. He is using a headset, walking home on his way back from the store after grabbing a snack and a drink, and he has been on the phone with DeeDee since he left there. According to DeeDee, it begins to rain, and he takes shelter at one of the buildings in the townhouse complex, while the two continue to chat. The referenced building is possibly the awning marked in purple on the above image.

 

7:04pm: An unknown individual makes a call to Trayvon while Trayvon is still talking to DeeDee. Unlike both Trayvon and DeeDee, this individual is not using a phone on a T-Mobile phone plan. Trayvon apparently puts DeeDee on hold, and then answers the new call in order to speak briefly to the new caller. This conversation lasts anywhere between 1 second and 59 seconds. After, Trayvon switches his call back to DeeDee. This phone call between DeeDee and Trayvon is recorded as having a duration of 18 minutes — which means from connection to termination, it was somewhere between 17 min, 0 seconds and 17 min, 59 seconds. Although the T-Mobile call times are imprecise, it would appear the call is disconnected at around 7:12pm.

 

7:09:34 pm: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon. He calls the non-emergency dispatch number for the police, and the call log records his call as connecting with dispatch at 7:09:34pm. [Note: Relevant log begins on page 46.] He reports a suspicious black male in neighborhood. An recording of Zimmerman’s police call

. Zimmerman states “The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.” Zimmerman meant to say 1111 Retreat View Circle. It appears that Trayvon is around the clubhouse when Zimmerman’s call to police begins, at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees. This is consistent with DeeDee’s claims that Trayvon was hanging out under a complex building to take shelter from the rain.

 

And then you wonder why lawyers take a pounding for inventing questions like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

Yes, I have a bias against lazy, sloppy journalism and people who sop in it. I didn't have an emotional attachment to the case and I didn't stake out a claim when the news first broke that I needed to walk back my initial comments. Yet, I'm the one who's fixated on it?

 

As for the culture, you can't seem to get away from the machismo. I was not brought up in an environment where I needed to defend myself with my bare hands. Nor have I lived in a place where I would have been compelled to carry a concealed weapon for protection. Comparing this situation to a barroom brawl or a fight on a basketball court is ridiculous, but you may want to ask Ray Lewis how bar brawls may end up.

 

You are imparting a lot of value judgments on Zimmerman's decision to get a gun and then use it when he was overmatched. As for your latest theory of why the ending occurred closer to the car than when Zimmerman first reported Martin's sighting -

 

"How do you know that Zimmerman didn't continue following Trayvon, they encountered one another, a fisticuff ensued, Zimmerman felt he was over-matched and ran back to his vehicle where the matter escalated."

 

Isn't the above a greater burden on Martin to walk away from an incident, instead of following the guy who you just beat up to give him a bigger beating? To me that's even a greater justification for Zimmerman to shoot in self defense.

 

Everything that I'm seeing suggests that he did, or tried to, or, at one point, was - and that he acknowledged the need to get away from someone who was following him.

 

The ONLY witness statement on the matter supports that:

 

http://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/minute-by-minute-timeline-of-trayvon-martins-death/

 

Approx. 7:12pm [+ or - 59 seconds off of 7:12pm, from the time as recorded by Zimmerman's call to police. Exact time unknown]: The original phone call that Trayvon made to Dee, which lasted 18 minutes, is disconnected. Almost immediately after that phone call ends, DeeDee calls Trayvon back. He answers, and DeeDee reports that he says to her, “I think this dude is following me.” She says that she tells him “Run!” and that Trayvon responded that he’s not going to run, he’s just going to walk fast.

 

 

What now GG? More cartography?

 

Want to find some more theories to blame the deceased?

[Jauronimo]

Check out this minute-by-minute account:

 

http://viewfromll2.c...-martins-death/

 

It may be worth fact-checking to ensure accuracy, but it just appears to me, as if Martin was trying to flee Zimmerman and they circled back to one another inadvertently.

 

His girlfriend , on the ohone with him, and the only one who has any knowledge of Martin's state of mind during that interim period, has said that Tryavon was saying things like:

 

Approx. 7:12pm [+ or - 59 seconds off of 7:12pm, from the time as recorded by Zimmerman's call to police. Exact time unknown]: The original phone call that Trayvon made to Dee, which lasted 18 minutes, is disconnected. Almost immediately after that phone call ends, DeeDee calls Trayvon back. He answers, and DeeDee reports that he says to her, “I think this dude is following me.” She says that she tells him “Run!” and that Trayvon responded that he’s not going to run, he’s just going to walk fast.

 

Read that entire accounting. It just seems like there is more to this story than meets the eye.

 

I'm NOT saying you 3rd, but I think there are a few people here giving Zimmerman an odd benefit of the doubt that he doesn't deserve. I can't place my finger on why though I suspect what the issue is. But before I started asking questions in this thread, people were universally responding to me that Trayvon had attacked Zimmerman.

 

That's sad. And not a fact.

 

He fleed Zimmerman for a reason.

 

And when the stakes are this high, no one should be conferred that benefit. The process needs to play out fairly.

 

 

 

As I said, "blithley":

 

http://viewfromll2.c...-martins-death/

 

6:54pm: Trayvon makes a call to “DeeDee,” a minor female that has been reported as his girlfriend. He is using a headset, walking home on his way back from the store after grabbing a snack and a drink, and he has been on the phone with DeeDee since he left there. According to DeeDee, it begins to rain, and he takes shelter at one of the buildings in the townhouse complex, while the two continue to chat. The referenced building is possibly the awning marked in purple on the above image.

7:04pm: An unknown individual makes a call to Trayvon while Trayvon is still talking to DeeDee. Unlike both Trayvon and DeeDee, this individual is not using a phone on a T-Mobile phone plan. Trayvon apparently puts DeeDee on hold, and then answers the new call in order to speak briefly to the new caller. This conversation lasts anywhere between 1 second and 59 seconds. After, Trayvon switches his call back to DeeDee. This phone call between DeeDee and Trayvon is recorded as having a duration of 18 minutes — which means from connection to termination, it was somewhere between 17 min, 0 seconds and 17 min, 59 seconds. Although the T-Mobile call times are imprecise, it would appear the call is disconnected at around 7:12pm.

7:09:34 pm: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon. He calls the non-emergency dispatch number for the police, and the call log records his call as connecting with dispatch at 7:09:34pm. [Note: Relevant log begins on page 46.] He reports a suspicious black male in neighborhood. An recording of Zimmerman’s police call

. Zimmerman states “The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.” Zimmerman meant to say 1111 Retreat View Circle. It appears that Trayvon is around the clubhouse when Zimmerman’s call to police begins, at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees. This is consistent with DeeDee’s claims that Trayvon was hanging out under a complex building to take shelter from the rain.

Its pretty easy to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Everything that we know about Zimmerman leading up to this incident suggests that hes a decent human being and thus far his story fits with what can be proven. Should anything new come to light I'm willing to revisit my opinion, but if I had to bet right now, I'm siding with Zimmerman. Guess that makes me a Mexican loving racist.

[Juror#8]

And then you wonder why lawyers take a pounding for inventing questions like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

Yes, I have a bias against lazy, sloppy journalism and people who sop in it. I didn't have an emotional attachment to the case and I didn't stake out a claim when the news first broke that I needed to walk back my initial comments. Yet, I'm the one who's fixated on it?

 

As for the culture, you can't seem to get away from the machismo. I was not brought up in an environment where I needed to defend myself with my bare hands. Nor have I lived in a place where I would have been compelled to carry a concealed weapon for protection. Comparing this situation to a barroom brawl or a fight on a basketball court is ridiculous, but you may want to ask Ray Lewis how bar brawls may end up.

 

You are imparting a lot of value judgments on Zimmerman's decision to get a gun and then use it when he was overmatched. As for your latest theory of why the ending occurred closer to the car than when Zimmerman first reported Martin's sighting -

 

"How do you know that Zimmerman didn't continue following Trayvon, they encountered one another, a fisticuff ensued, Zimmerman felt he was over-matched and ran back to his vehicle where the matter escalated."

 

Isn't the above a greater burden on Martin to walk away from an incident, instead of following the guy who you just beat up to give him a bigger beating? To me that's even a greater justification for Zimmerman to shoot in self defense.

 

Everything that I'm seeing suggests that Trayvon did, or tried to, or, at one point, was fleeing - and that he acknowledged the need to get away from someone who was following him.

 

The ONLY witness statement on the matter supports that:

 

http://viewfromll2.c...-martins-death/

 

Approx. 7:12pm [+ or - 59 seconds off of 7:12pm, from the time as recorded by Zimmerman's call to police. Exact time unknown]: The original phone call that Trayvon made to Dee, which lasted 18 minutes, is disconnected. Almost immediately after that phone call ends, DeeDee calls Trayvon back. He answers, and DeeDee reports that he says to her, “I think this dude is following me.” She says that she tells him “Run!” and that Trayvon responded that he’s not going to run, he’s just going to walk fast.

 

 

What now GG? More cartography?

 

Want to find some more theories to blame the deceased?

Edited March 1, 2013 by Juror#8

[3rdnlng]

And then you wonder why lawyers take a pounding for inventing questions like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

Yes, I have a bias against lazy, sloppy journalism and people who sop in it. I didn't have an emotional attachment to the case and I didn't stake out a claim when the news first broke that I needed to walk back my initial comments. Yet, I'm the one who's fixated on it?

 

As for the culture, you can't seem to get away from the machismo. I was not brought up in an environment where I needed to defend myself with my bare hands. Nor have I lived in a place where I would have been compelled to carry a concealed weapon for protection. Comparing this situation to a barroom brawl or a fight on a basketball court is ridiculous, but you may want to ask Ray Lewis how bar brawls may end up.

 

You are imparting a lot of value judgments on Zimmerman's decision to get a gun and then use it when he was overmatched. As for your latest theory of why the ending occurred closer to the car than when Zimmerman first reported Martin's sighting -

 

"How do you know that Zimmerman didn't continue following Trayvon, they encountered one another, a fisticuff ensued, Zimmerman felt he was over-matched and ran back to his vehicle where the matter escalated."

 

Isn't the above a greater burden on Martin to walk away from an incident, instead of following the guy who you just beat up to give him a bigger beating? To me that's even a greater justification for Zimmerman to shoot in self defense.

 

 

Are you saying that Martin may have tried to turn the tables on Zimmerman and stalk him down and kill him in cold blood?

[Juror#8]

Its pretty easy to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Everything that we know about Zimmerman leading up to this incident suggests that hes a decent human being and thus far his story fits with what can be proven. Should anything new come to light I'm willing to revisit my opinion, but if I had to bet right now, I'm siding with Zimmerman. Guess that makes me a Mexican loving racist.

 

That's fine. You're entitled to you opinion, and frankly I may agree with you. I can't argue with your sentiment, feeling, or intuition on the matter.

 

But the volume of people who were stating, unequivocally, that Trayvon stalked Zimmerman was RIDICULOUS. And that they used that justify a notion that Trayvon got what he deserved, is suspect and makes you wonder about their individual biases.

 

A "Trayvon stalking" narrative is not supported by ANY evidence.

 

In fact, it is against the weight of evidence as we CURRENTLY understand it.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Juror#8

[GG]

This is really sad and I hope that you've considered what you're saying, and how inconsiderately you're acting (in consideration of the subject matter). People just shouldn't act in this neanderthalic way around a subject matter of this particular depth and moment.

 

As I said, "blithley":

 

http://viewfromll2.c...-martins-death/

 

6:54pm: Trayvon makes a call to “DeeDee,” a minor female that has been reported as his girlfriend. He is using a headset, walking home on his way back from the store after grabbing a snack and a drink, and he has been on the phone with DeeDee since he left there. According to DeeDee, it begins to rain, and he takes shelter at one of the buildings in the townhouse complex, while the two continue to chat. The referenced building is possibly the awning marked in purple on the above image.

 

7:04pm: An unknown individual makes a call to Trayvon while Trayvon is still talking to DeeDee. Unlike both Trayvon and DeeDee, this individual is not using a phone on a T-Mobile phone plan. Trayvon apparently puts DeeDee on hold, and then answers the new call in order to speak briefly to the new caller. This conversation lasts anywhere between 1 second and 59 seconds. After, Trayvon switches his call back to DeeDee. This phone call between DeeDee and Trayvon is recorded as having a duration of 18 minutes — which means from connection to termination, it was somewhere between 17 min, 0 seconds and 17 min, 59 seconds. Although the T-Mobile call times are imprecise, it would appear the call is disconnected at around 7:12pm.

 

7:09:34 pm: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon. He calls the non-emergency dispatch number for the police, and the call log records his call as connecting with dispatch at 7:09:34pm. [Note: Relevant log begins on page 46.] He reports a suspicious black male in neighborhood. An recording of Zimmerman’s police call

. Zimmerman states “The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.” Zimmerman meant to say 1111 Retreat View Circle. It appears that Trayvon is around the clubhouse when Zimmerman’s call to police begins, at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees. This is consistent with DeeDee’s claims that Trayvon was hanging out under a complex building to take shelter from the rain.

 

 

 

Everything that I'm seeing suggests that he did, or tried to, or, at one point, was - and that he acknowledged the need to get away from someone who was following him.

 

The ONLY witness statement on the matter supports that:

 

http://viewfromll2.c...-martins-death/

 

Approx. 7:12pm [+ or - 59 seconds off of 7:12pm, from the time as recorded by Zimmerman's call to police. Exact time unknown]: The original phone call that Trayvon made to Dee, which lasted 18 minutes, is disconnected. Almost immediately after that phone call ends, DeeDee calls Trayvon back. He answers, and DeeDee reports that he says to her, “I think this dude is following me.” She says that she tells him “Run!” and that Trayvon responded that he’s not going to run, he’s just going to walk fast.

 

 

What now GG? More cartography?

 

Want to find some more theories to blame the deceased?

 

You have a problem in believing Zimmerman's version, yet take the girlfriend's story at face value? The only fact there is that the call was made. You don't know what was said. Yes, look at the timeline and the map. If Martin was running or walking fast with a head start behind the buildings, how was Zimmerman able to catch up to him so quickly, unless Martin stopped to confront his follower? The theory that Zimmerman intercepted Martin by running on a different path doesn't make sense because even in your link, the supposition is that Zimmerman stopped running after 20 seconds, talked to the police and lost sight of Martin. This would have given Martin ample time to continue running/walking back to his father's place. The commentary in your link makes a lot of suppositions, but the timeline and the map don't corroborate the story much. There was a lot of time for Martin to walk closer to #6, than to hang out in area #5 if he was truly afraid of his follower.

 

The other fact is that during the neighbors calls, there are audible cries for help. If that's Martin, how does that square with the theory that Zimmerman was taking a beating? If it was Zimmerman screaming, then there's justification for self defense under Florida law.

 

Are you saying that Martin may have tried to turn the tables on Zimmerman and stalk him down and kill him in cold blood?

 

Now there's a leap of conneristic logic.

 

No, but it's perfectly plausible that Martin didn't like being followed and wanted to confront his stalker and settle it like a man. He gambled on that and lost.

[Juror#8]

You have a problem in believing Zimmerman's version, yet take the girlfriend's story at face value? The only fact there is that the call was made. You don't know what was said. Yes, look at the timeline and the map. If Martin was running or walking fast with a head start behind the buildings, how was Zimmerman able to catch up to him so quickly, unless Martin stopped to confront his follower? The theory that Zimmerman intercepted Martin by running on a different path doesn't make sense because even in your link, the supposition is that Zimmerman stopped running after 20 seconds, talked to the police and lost sight of Martin. This would have given Martin ample time to continue running/walking back to his father's place. The commentary in your link makes a lot of suppositions, but the timeline and the map don't corroborate the story much. There was a lot of time for Martin to walk closer to #6, than to hang out in area #5 if he was truly afraid of his follower.

 

The other fact is that during the neighbors calls, there are audible cries for help. If that's Martin, how does that square with the theory that Zimmerman was taking a beating? If it was Zimmerman screaming, then there's justification for self defense under Florida law.

 

You're point presumes that the girlfriend was being untruthful. Otherwise, it becomes an issue for you that Trayvon made repeated statements about being followed and running/fast walking away.

 

You query:

 

You have a problem in believing Zimmerman's version, yet take the girlfriend's story at face value?

 

...as if both accounts should be taken equally though they somewhat contradict each other.

 

Why are they not equal and why am I skeptical about about Zimmerman's version of events more so than the girlfirend's?

 

Well, because the girlfriend didn't shoot anyone and the girlfriend's freedom is not contingent upon whether or not people believe her story.

 

EVEN if she has the motivation to stick it to Zimmerman, that motivation is no where near as galvanizing as Zimmerman wanting to ensure his own freedom.

 

That's why.

[3rdnlng]

That's fine. You're entitled to you opinion, and frankly I may agree with you. I can't argue with your sentiment, feeling, or intuition on the matter.

 

But the volume of people who were stating, unequivocally, that Trayvon stalked Zimmerman was RIDICULOUS. And that they used that justify a notion that Trayvon got what he deserved, is suspect and makes you wonder about their individual biases.

 

A "Trayvon stalking" narrative is not supported by ANY evidence.

 

In fact, it is against the weight of evidence as we CURRENTLY understand it.

 

No, you were the one that speculated that Martin and Zimmerman may have gotten into an altercation and as Zimmerman felt he was over matched he returned to his vehicle while Martin followed him and started a new altercation. We do know for sure that an altercation happened near Zimmerman's vehicle, and by both person's communication,at one time they were several blocks from it. Believe it or not, the posters that are the most reasonable are the only ones that are still posting in this thread. The race baiting, screaming banshees have all stayed away. Even the OP slithered away with his tail between his legs. Their bandwagon lost it's wheels.

[Juror#8]

You have a problem in believing Zimmerman's version, yet take the girlfriend's story at face value? The only fact there is that the call was made. You don't know what was said. Yes, look at the timeline and the map. If Martin was running or walking fast with a head start behind the buildings, how was Zimmerman able to catch up to him so quickly, unless Martin stopped to confront his follower? The theory that Zimmerman intercepted Martin by running on a different path doesn't make sense because even in your link, the supposition is that Zimmerman stopped running after 20 seconds, talked to the police and lost sight of Martin. This would have given Martin ample time to continue running/walking back to his father's place. The commentary in your link makes a lot of suppositions, but the timeline and the map don't corroborate the story much. There was a lot of time for Martin to walk closer to #6, than to hang out in area #5 if he was truly afraid of his follower.

 

The other fact is that during the neighbors calls, there are audible cries for help. If that's Martin, how does that square with the theory that Zimmerman was taking a beating? If it was Zimmerman screaming, then there's justification for self defense under Florida law.

 

 

 

Now there's a leap of conneristic logic.

 

No, but it's perfectly plausible that Martin didn't like being followed and wanted to confront his stalker and settle it like a man. He gambled on that and lost.

 

Think about this for a second - you're 17, in a somewhat foreign environment, at night, in the rain, and someone that you don't know is following you for no reason.

 

Better yet, think about someone you know who is 15-18 years old under those circumstances.

 

You don't think that they would be out-of-sorts, disoriented, scared, unsure, fight-or-flight?

 

At night. It's raining.

 

And what if, thinking that they're moving away, they run into the person who has been following him?

 

It's like a scene out of a horror movie.

 

You don't think that sympathetic nervous system would take over? IF this is true, you can't understand why someone, who tried to run, but is back facing a person who has been following him, would get state of nature?

 

You ever see a scared dog back against a wall?

 

I don't know if it is those things are true. But I do know that the girlfriend, who was on the phone with Trayvon, said he was trying to flee. That the girlfriend mentioned that Trayvon mentioned that he was being followed. That Zimmerman himself said that Trayvon was running AWAY from him. That Zimmerman followed him. That Tryvon didn't live there. That is was dark. That it was raining. That it was late.

 

That I would be scared under those circumstances.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Juror#8

[GG]

You're point presumes that the girlfriend was being untruthful. Otherwise, it becomes an issue for you that Trayvon made repeated statements about being followed and running/fast walking away.

 

You query:

 

 

 

...as if both accounts should be taken equally though they somewhat contradict each other.

 

Why are they not equal and why am I skeptical about about Zimmerman's version of events more so than the girlfirend's?

 

Well, because the girlfriend didn't shoot anyone and the girlfriend's freedom is not contingent upon whether or not people believe her story.

 

EVEN if she has the motivation to stick it to Zimmerman, that motivation is no where near as galvanizing as Zimmerman wanting to ensure his own freedom.

 

That's why.

 

I am discounting uncorroborated testimony of both sides and looking at the recorded conversations, the map and the timeline of the calls. Based on that, the preponderance of evidence is that the conflict could have been avoided if Martin had continued his run/walk home. You insist that Zimmerman bears the greater burden of the conflict escalation. Yet, the data seems to dispute that.

 

And as for being in a strange environment, absolutely human instinct is to seek shelter unless they are the aggressor. Which is even more of a reason for Martin to continue running to get away from his strange follower.

 

No one is also asking why Martin didn't call the police if he thought he was in danger?

Edited March 1, 2013 by GG

[Juror#8]

No, you were the one that speculated that Martin and Zimmerman may have gotten into an altercation and as Zimmerman felt he was over matched he returned to his vehicle while Martin followed him and started a new altercation. We do know for sure that an altercation happened near Zimmerman's vehicle, and by both person's communication,at one time they were several blocks from it. Believe it or not, the posters that are the most reasonable are the only ones that are still posting in this thread. The race baiting, screaming banshees have all stayed away. Even the OP slithered away with his tail between his legs. Their bandwagon lost it's wheels.

 

Exactly, I don't know.

 

That's all I've wanted other's to acknowledge - that they don't know.

 

But the "Trayvon stalking" narrative is unsupported by anything even remotely resembling a fact.

[GG]

 

And what if, thinking that they're moving away, they run into the person who has been following him?

 

 

That's why I keep harping on the map and the timeline. I find it implausible that Zimmerman either caught up or intercepted Martin, given Martin's head start and the fact that there's only a single path to the father's complex. Martin had to stop. Why he stopped is going to be the deciding factor in the case.

[Juror#8]

I am discounting uncorroborated testimony of both sides and looking at the recorded conversations, the map and the timeline of the calls. Based on that, the preponderance of evidence is that the conflict could have been avoided if Martin had continued his run/walk home. You insist that Zimmerman bears the greater burden of the conflict escalation. Yet, the data seems to dispute that.

 

And as for being in a strange environment, absolutely human instinct is to seek shelter unless they are the aggressor. Which is even more of a reason for Martin to continue running to get away from his strange follower.

 

No one is also asking why Martin didn't call the police if he thought he was in danger?

 

You don't know that he didn't.

 

It was dark, raining, in a large community, with similar structures, and somewhere where Trayvon had only been "a few times."

 

You don't know that Trayvon didn't go the wrong way. It is entirely plausible and is as plausible as any other scenario.

 

Even if you discount the girlfriend's testimony, Zimmerman himself said that Trayvon was running away.

 

If he ran away from the situation once, why then would he decide to turn around and seek out the situation that, only minutes before, he ran away from?

 

That's why I keep harping on the map and the timeline. I find it implausible that Zimmerman either caught up or intercepted Martin, given Martin's head start and the fact that there's only a single path to the father's complex. Martin had to stop. Why he stopped is going to be the deciding factor in the case.

 

I'm not sure that he was intercepted. I think that, for reasons mentioned in my last two posts, he inadvertenly ran back into Zimmerman. Zimmerman himself said that Trayvon ran away from him.

 

It is plausible given the atmospherics - nighttime, lack of familiarity, on the phone, raining.

 

And why would we he run away, to only minutes later turn around and seek out what he just determined to be a threat, such that he needed to run in the first place?

 

There is something missing.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Juror#8

[3rdnlng]

You have a problem in believing Zimmerman's version, yet take the girlfriend's story at face value? The only fact there is that the call was made. You don't know what was said. Yes, look at the timeline and the map. If Martin was running or walking fast with a head start behind the buildings, how was Zimmerman able to catch up to him so quickly, unless Martin stopped to confront his follower? The theory that Zimmerman intercepted Martin by running on a different path doesn't make sense because even in your link, the supposition is that Zimmerman stopped running after 20 seconds, talked to the police and lost sight of Martin. This would have given Martin ample time to continue running/walking back to his father's place. The commentary in your link makes a lot of suppositions, but the timeline and the map don't corroborate the story much. There was a lot of time for Martin to walk closer to #6, than to hang out in area #5 if he was truly afraid of his follower.

 

The other fact is that during the neighbors calls, there are audible cries for help. If that's Martin, how does that square with the theory that Zimmerman was taking a beating? If it was Zimmerman screaming, then there's justification for self defense under Florida law.

 

 

 

Now there's a leap of conneristic logic.

 

No, but it's perfectly plausible that Martin didn't like being followed and wanted to confront his stalker and settle it like a man. He gambled on that and lost.

 

If Martin was following Zimmerman after he had beat Zimmerman up then he was the stalker. I did use a little hyperbole on purpose, but didn't realize it was conneristic.

[Alaska Darin]

How do you know this? Simple question. Just give me a simple answer.

I don't "know" it, which is why I used the term "likely". I used the term "likely" based on my personal life experience. Is that simple enough for you or does the guy who has used more supposition in this thread than everyone else combined going to need me to draw pictures?

We'll try this one more time? I haven't disrespected you. Show the same courtesy. Otherwise, just don't respond to my posts. You wouldn't say it to my face. Why be disingenuous here?

You don't know me, so don't blindly believe that I wouldn't tell you to STFU if you were tossing such stupidity around in my presence. Because like most of this thread, you'd be wrong. It has nothing to do with courtesy. The world needs more people telling others to STFU and I'm pretty willing to do it. Ask anyone here who has actually met me. I'm the same dude in person that I am on the internet.

 

You've typed out the same ridiculous drivel over and over again, as if you're going to win by having more long posts than everyone else. It's not making you look smarter, nor is anyone buying it. I suspect you even know it's utter bull **** but you're not man enough to walk away.

 

Maybe I'll go all Zimmerman and shoot you off the board.