Trayvon Martin Case

[ExiledInIllinois]

Why is the Obama thing stuck in people's craw? Martin is skinny and black... Fairer skin too... Could be Obama's kid.

 

What did Martin do to get hassles and stalked by another civilian?

[Bigfatbillsfan]

I know...it was primarily BF-squared and lybob (I think) that were arguing that the DoJ was involved on grounds of "equal protection" because the ENTIRE TOWN was racist.

 

 

 

Please, someone tell him! Please!

 

I'm sure in your mind this makes sense.

[bbb]

The grieving mother.

 

Also Monday, an attorney for Martin's mother confirmed that she filed trademark applications for two slogans containing her son's name: "Justice for Trayvon" and "I Am Trayvon." The applications said the trademarks could be used for such things as DVDs and CDs.

 

The trademark attorney, Kimra Major-Morris, said in an email that Fulton wants to protect intellectual property rights for "projects that will assist other families who experience similar tragedies."

 

Asked if Fulton had any profit motive, the attorney replied: "None."

 

The only ones that I respected last week were the parents. Now I'm started to lose it for them. There's what you quote and then what the mother said today, when the portrayal that she allowed last week of the 12 year old angelic skittle lover "who got all As and Bs and majored in cheerfulness" has turned into a kid who has been suspended three times from school, once for the acknowledged tardiness, then for basically having the tools and treasures of a burglar, and then for pot:

 

"They've killed my son, now they want to kill his reputation."

 

First of all, who is "they" that killed your son?.............And, you didn't say anything when the media portrayed him as an angel.

[B-Man]

Why is the Obama thing stuck in people's craw? Martin is skinny and black... Fairer skin too... Could be Obama's kid.

 

 

 

The role of a president is to rein in the mob, not to unleash it.

 

The latter is what community organizers do; the former is what makes statesmen.

 

.

[Bigfatbillsfan]

Dear liberals,

 

I hope as I write these words you are all enjoying a tasty plate of crow. For me personally this situation has been a source of great enlightenment and understanding as well as misanthropy. I have witnessed a nationwide lynchmob arise over a great leap to a far conclusion demanding the head of a man who appears now to be innocent & a police department that appears now to have done its job. I saw the national media, those who the bulk of the population trust to keep them informed, willfully misrepresent a story to manufacture the controversy with no regard for the consequences. I saw the President of the United States encourage and enflame the bloodthirsty mob. So what have we learned from all this?

 

We've learned that liberals believe that anytime a black person is hurt or killed by a non-black person that person is both racist and guilty until proven otherwise.

 

Liberals look for and see racism everywhere it can exist; it is their default explanation.

 

If you see someone acting suspiciously do not call the cops & if you do call the cops certainly don't follow the person to see where he's going, ESPECIALLY if he's black. If he notices you and attacks you it's your fault for upsetting him and we'll assume without question that the only reason he looked suspicious is because he's black & you're a racist.

 

Taking a logical approach to a situation and waiting for the facts is racist.

 

It is appropriate for the DoJ to pursue isolated local crimes any time baseless claims of racism are thrown around.

 

If you shoot someone who is smashing your head against the ground make sure he doesn't have any !@#$ing Skittles.

 

Obama is a shameless race-obsessed 60s radical wannabe who sees the world through the prism of "us v. them." (okay, we already knew this, but now we can prove it).

 

Liberals have lost a lot of credibility here. I see some of you grasping at straws to save face but it's not working. Just eat your crow & get it over with. You're collectively the little boy who cried racism. The sad part, & the one that I'm struggling with internally to try to justify a fading belief in the good of humanity, is that most of you have learned nothing from this.

 

A prosecutor told me today (in an unrelated conversation) to look at an article about someone accused of sexual abuse & then read the comments. Many are very detailed accusations attributing motives to the accuser as well as the accused and all are based on nothing more than the five sentence blurb above. That's what we've seen here.

 

 

Did your pea brain ever consider that maybe it wasn't an 'obvious racial killing' to the people who were actually investigating the case?

 

The DOJ should act based on the media popularity of events? Or to provide 'evidence' to ignorant lynch mobs members like you?

 

 

Moron.

 

Wow man, Just... Wow.

 

Lynch mob?

 

[bbb]

I'm being asked this question. The new witness or two - are they just new to the media, but told the police their story before, or have they just appeared on the scene? Does anybody know?

[ExiledInIllinois]

<br />The role of a president is to rein in the mob, not to unleash it. <br /><br />The latter is what community organizers do; the former is what makes statesmen.<br /><br />.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

And this says where in the job description? I am sure you are referencing the USC..

[Bigfatbillsfan]

You're missing the point, and I'm surprised because you're normally fairly sound (in these parts anyway). You're injecting your speculation just like BFMF was.

 

Take the principle you're espousing outside of this particular incident and apply it broadly. You're essentially saying that any time you see a potential predator acting suspicious mind your business and keep going.

 

And he obviously wasn't calling the cops for advice, much less the advice of a !@#$ing dispatcher. That would be like me asking the 16 year old working the counter at the pharmacy for medical advice.

 

This is a feeble attempt for an analogy.

 

This has nothing to do with speculation idiot. You can't even grasp the point of what I was saying because you can't think anywhere outside of the small box it's in. Then you talk about someone else injecting their speculation.

 

For a good example of a post that injects a persons speculation see your "Dear liberals" post.

[....lybob]

This would not be an issue if the DA worked a little harder since the get go and didn't just throw their hands up in the air with regard to stand your ground... That is what bothers me since the start of this... If it was the other way around... I am confident that they would have pressed harder from the start.

 

Yet really, some creepy dude tails you... What are you gonna do? Ask questions? Get passive? If you are young and AA, running is not an option.. Makes you look like you are doing something wrong. The only option besides being a victim is to go ghetto on the stalker. Trayvon's problem is the guy had a gun. Why the heck was he being followed? What was so suspicious that Trayvon was doing... Even if he appeared to be under the influence... Who made Zimmerman Capt Drug Tester!

Questions just to start

1.Did Trayvon Martin have George Zimmerman's blood on his hands or Zimmerman's skin under his finger nails.

2. What did Trayvon Martin Toxicology panel show

3. Was Zimmerman taken to a hospital to be treated if so what were the results

4. What did the bullet wound say about the distance Martin was shot from, did the bullet pass through Martin and if so where was the bullet found

5. Why wasn't Zimmerman drug tested

6. Did Zimmerman have any of Martin's blood on him like you'd suspect if you were shooting someone on top of you. what evidence if any did the police take? Zimmerman's clothes? did they take pictures of the crime scene? it was raining was the ground ripped up where they supposedly fought, were Martin's knees muddy.

7. Zimmerman said Martin was acting suspiciously and seemed like he was on drugs- what were the exact actions and behaviors he saw Martin doing? was Martin staggering, was Martin going onto private property testing doors and windows, was Martin screaming at passers by, was Martin stripping naked, was he walking around with with electronics, did he shoot up or toke up, was he yelling "I'm a golden God" and jumping into pools.

 

Why is the Obama thing stuck in people's craw? Martin is skinny and black... Fairer skin too... Could be Obama's kid.

 

What did Martin do to get hassles and stalked by another civilian?

I was thinking it was the ears

[Bigfatbillsfan]

Is anyone arguing that Zimmerman isn't culpable?

 

I think the real question at this point is whether he's criminally liable, or civilly liable...

 

I think you would have a hard time proving that he is criminally liable in a court or law since there is no way to know for sure what happened. But I think this is a good indictment of the "Stand your ground" law as it is currently written. It needs to at least be tweaked.

 

Civilly? That's a hard one to decide.

[3rdnlng]

 

 

 

Wow man, Just... Wow.

 

Lynch mob?

 

 

New Black Panthers and their $10,000 (for now) bounty on George Zimmerman---Dead or Alive.

[3rdnlng]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

The media never jumps to conclusions or pushes their agenda

 

-Duke lacrosse team

[B-Man]

L A Times

 

Playing the race card again

By Jonah Goldberg

 

White Hispanic." That's how the New York Times, Reuters and other media outlets have opted to describe George Zimmerman, a man who would simply be Hispanic (or Latino in this newspaper) if he hadn't shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. The term, rarely if ever used before this tragedy, is necessary in telling the Martin story in a more comfortable way.

 

What's the comfortable way? It's the way the blame for Martin's death belongs squarely at the feet of "the system." And "the system" is a white thing, don't you know.

 

For instance, in a remarkably uncritical interview with The Times, Jesse Jackson explained that with the election of President Obama, "there was this feeling that we were kind of beyond racism." He continued: "That's not true. His victory has triggered tremendous backlash." Indeed, "Blacks are under attack."

 

Jackson apparently includes in this racist Obama "backlash" record home foreclosures for African Americans and black unemployment. It would have been nice if The Times had asked Jackson to work a little harder to connect those dots.

 

Jackson also laments that "targeting, arresting, convicting blacks and ultimately killing us is big business" in America.

 

On the saner end of the liberal spectrum, Reniqua Allen of the New America Foundation writes in the Washington Post that it's harder to talk about race now that we have a black president (note: not a "white African American president," a la the new Zimmerman standard, although both men have a white parent).

 

Allen is surely right that having a black president makes it hard to talk about race, particularly if you want to have the hackneyed monologue hustlers such as Jackson and the Rev. Al Sharptonwant to have. Weak-tea Marxist rants about a system that parasitically feeds off black men sound absurdly antiquated when that system is run, at the top, by black men (Eric H. Holder Jr., let's not forget, runs the Justice Department).

 

 

But the aging race industry that continues to see the world through a half-century-old prism of Jim Crow, and still wants you to see it that way too, is determined to bum-rush Zimmerman into his assigned role, heedless of facts or the lack of them.

 

Meanwhile, Obama, who promised a new conversation on race, seems happier in an election year to lend heft to the old one. He called for soul-searching — but absent a full set of facts, why does this homicide of all U.S. homicides require it? Obama's comments mostly seem aimed at adding credence to liberal conventional wisdom.

[Juror#8]

If Martin took a punch at Zimmerman, knocked him down, etc., the only thing that that demonstrates, from a legal standpoint, and with respect to this issue, is that Zimmerman got his ass kicked.

 

Let's introduce some legal analysis:

 

Florida Law

 

776.012 Use of force in defense of person. - ...a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

 

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

 

In this instance, the immunity (or "Stand Your Ground" portion) is activated as per:

 

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

 

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force

 

HOWEVER, a nuance rests in the "aggressor" language:

 

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

 

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

 

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

 

There is A LOT of detail in this language but a couple of things stand out that implicate the following questions:

 

A. Was Zimmerman the aggressor?

 

Which implicates 2 clarifying questions -

 

1. Is the act of following an individual against the admonitions of police when the individual being followed hasn't perpetrated any articulable illegal act considered being "an aggressor"?

 

AND

 

2. There is an audio tape that suggests that Zimmerman called Martin a "coon." Does that tape say waht it is purported to say?

 

http://fcir.org/2012/03/23/on-zimmermans-911-call-what-sounds-like-a-racial-slur/

 

IF he called him a racial slur, Zimmerman is the aggressor. Period.

 

In that instance, Zimmerman loses his 776.032 protection and has to fulfill one of the exceptions articulated in 776.041 (a) and (b)

 

Under 776.041 Zimmerman would have to had to try to escape (and their relative body weights would come into play), OR he would have had to clearly announce his intent to withdraw from the confrontation. Simply walking away is insufficient to convey that withdrawal IF Zimmerman is considered the aggressor (based on the tape).

 

The audio tape has been sent to the FBI for analysis. If Zimmerman called Martin a "coon," it is going to be an uphill battlefor him.

 

B. Did Zimmerman reasonably believe that "that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself"?

 

Which implicates proportionality considerations -

 

1. Reasonableness (to include relative size and weight considerations)

 

2.Necessity

 

Also (and this is significant), the past history of violence for each party is admissible to demonstrate their physical competencies, disposition, aggressive liklihoods, predilictions, or tendencies, etc.

 

If Zimmerman claims that he was a scared bunny, but the accusations of domestic violence and assault against authority figures are true, he is gonna have an uphill battle on proportionality - reasonableness, and necessity.

 

 

At the end of the day, NOTHING has changed. As mentioned above, if it is true that Martin took a punch at him or that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, it doesn't really impact the above considerations ESPECIALLY if Zimmerman called Martin a "coon."

 

Those claiming that the scales are tipping toward Zimmerman and Martin advocates are being somehow exposed as "wrong" fundamentally misunderstand the law and the how these circumstances fit within the law's complex tapestry.

 

The best thing to do is to let the matter unfold fully. Zimmerman deserves a fair and impartial adjudication of these issues. Martin's family does too.

 

From a legal perspective though, I think Zimmerman is sunk if that audio tape comes back with his voice uttering a racial slur. But that is a big IF, and conditioned upon criteria that are still subject to analysis. And that still presupposes grand jury findings, the legal battle over items of admissibility, casting of legal doubt, etc.

 

Long way to go folks. Media is off-course. To them, Dave is still getting good PR from that Goliath thing. But everyone here thinking that a fight circumscribes this issue has never seen the inside of a courtroom as an advocate. That fight means little to nothing.

 

Florida jury instructions for those interested:

 

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/chapters/entireversion/onlinejurryinstructions.pdf

 

Section 3.6 is the relevant section.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Juror#8

[Doc]

L A Times

So if Zimmerman is "white Hispanic," should we start referring to Barry as "white black?" And since the white part dominates in Zimmerman and leads to him being racist...

[GaryPinC]

After reading the articles referenced in this thread, I am thinking George Zimmerman never ended his call with 911 and the police have this audio that supports his version of things.

 

Obviously they never arrested him and never pressed any charges. They are very definitive (beyond "John's" statements) that the person yelling for help was indeed Zimmerman. They sound very willing to let any outside investigators examine their work, and it says there was a minute of silence on the phone when they couldn't tell what was going on (guessing this was when Zimmerman was looking for Martin).

 

I am guessing the reason Martin's parents had to sue to get the 911 tapes released was because they are to be used as evidence and upon forcing the issue police withheld the crucial last part of the recording that includes the actual altercation.

 

This presumes the police did their jobs properly and weren't clouded by racism. I am also wondering if the initial photo of George Zimmerman looking like a beat-up thug was one of the photos police took of him that night.

 

Curious as to what others think of this scenario, and I have not listened to the 911 call(s).

[GaryPinC]

This would not be an issue if the DA worked a little harder since the get go and didn't just throw their hands up in the air with regard to stand your ground... That is what bothers me since the start of this... If it was the other way around... I am confident that they would have pressed harder from the start.

 

Yet really, some creepy dude tails you... What are you gonna do? Ask questions? Get passive? If you are young and AA, running is not an option.. Makes you look like you are doing something wrong. The only option besides being a victim is to go ghetto on the stalker. Trayvon's problem is the guy had a gun. Why the heck was he being followed? What was so suspicious that Trayvon was doing... Even if he appeared to be under the influence... Who made Zimmerman Capt Drug Tester!

 

 

Really? From Zimmerman's account it sounds like Martin in fact had eluded him but decided to circle back and kick his ass. So he did just what you thought he should and he's dead now. If Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he might have ended up dead or severely injured. All because of a simple misunderstanding.

 

You, sir, and this mentality are part of the problem. This situation could have been avoided if both of these guys had set aside their prejudices and talked to each other. Doesn't sound like Martin was cornered at any point in time, he also could have just run away and left the situation behind him.

 

I hope you give this some serious thought and readjust your attitude. There is certainly a time where your best option is to "go ghetto" but right now this shooting indicates the reverse.

 

I missed the part where Obama said kill whitey- which part did you find incendiary.

 

"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon."

 

This. Personalizing a kid and a situation he really doesn't know or understand.

 

If Zimmerman's story turns out to be closest to reality will our passionate president publicly step up and acknowledge it?

 

I had been willing to vote for him this fall. If Martin's really the one at fault and Obama can't have the balls to stand up and acknowledge it no way do I even consider Obama for a second term.

[erynthered]

 

 

 

 

 

I had been willing to vote for him this fall. If Martin's really the one at fault and Obama can't have the balls to stand up and acknowledge it no way do I even consider Obama for a second term.

 

Are you !@#$ing kidding me??

 

You would base your vote on this case??

 

Please tell me thats not true.

[Rob's House]

Sorry Juror, you're wrong on this. If events transpired as the witness account say it's an open & shut case for self defense.

 

Regardless of what happened prior to the confrontation, when Zimmerman is going back to his car and Trayvon approaches him Trayvon becomes the aggressor. And I think if someone had just broken your nose and was sitting on your chest repeatedly slamming your head against the concrete you would realize how reasonable it is to fear imminent bodily harm. At that point you can no longer retreat and thus stand your ground wouldn't apply. And you can't claim self defense for Trayvon because Zimmerman (I.e. The danger) was retreating. He can't even claim he was standing his ground because he was moning forward.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Rob's House