Hanoverbills Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 What is with he Left Tackle mafia around here lately? LT is NOT the 2nd most important position in the game. Not even close. Joe Thomas, Jake Long, Michael Roos and Jason Peters are the consensus best tackles year after year in the NFL and they never take their teams to the playoffs. A QB who makes quick decisions and has good pocket presence makes his Oline look a lot better. Here is a stat for you. There hasn't been a OT picked in the first round to start in the super bowl in since 2007. Great teams pick impact players up near the top of the draft. Wasn't Nate Solder drafted in the first rd by N.E. last year? He started 13 games for N.E. last year at OT. Green Bay drafted OT first the last two years and Bulaga started his rookie year two years ago.
John Cocktosten Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Wasn't Nate Solder drafted in the first rd by N.E. last year? He started 13 games for N.E. last year at OT. Green Bay drafted OT first the last two years and Bulaga started his rookie year two years ago. I corrected myself in the thread and said LT. Again, my point being the days of needing a dominant LT are over. The 5 step vertical passing game is a thing of the past. The Pats were in the SB this year and their biggest deep threat was a TE. QBs are more mobile and the west coast offense (short passes) out of the spread is more prevalent than ever. If we are sitting there at #10 and Ingram is there I'd be willing to bet a million $'s that he is the choice. That gives the Bills the one of the best D-lines in the game. I wouldn't mind picking a tackle if we traded back (only if Ingram isn't there) picked up an extra pick and drafted an OT. IMO #10 is too high for an OT. Edited March 18, 2012 by John Cocktosten
Reed83HOF Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 #10 is too high for a LT, value can be found in later rounds. If we get another legit threat at WR to go along with SJ, teams will have to respect both of the WRs, plus our running game. teams won't be pinning their ears back and all out rushing Fitz. All of a sudden out LT situation will look A LOT better.
KOKBILLS Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 Jonathan Martin - "Warning signs for a lack of heart." What? I still think Martin is the Pick at #10...I definitely don't believe he lacks heart whatsoever...We'll see though...
Bill from NYC Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 Bill I have been waiting for you. We all know how you feel about drafting CBs/DBs. My question is do you see this is an area of need on our team and if so, where you would see us drafting? Absolutely not, at least not with the #10. Remember, we just used a VERY early #2 on a corner. Look at the jets if you will.....They are paying Revis almost as much as we will pay Mario. The results? No playoffs, and they had to extend Sanchez, a so-so qb at best, to do so. Dick Drawn explains it better than me. In 4 or 5 wide sets, even a "shut down corner" only covers one receiver. But, today teams go with 4 or even 5 wide sets. Corners were never a good idea to build a team around. Now it makes even less sense. As for us, we have (imho) but one credible LB on the team. That would be Barnett, who is on the wrong side of 30. And, we have an obvious need at LT. If Nix/Gailey loved Bell, he would be signed. And if GMs around the league believed in him, he would have a 75 million dollar contract. One of the very best posters on this board (John C) hates me for it lol, but I would love to see them trade down just a few spots and draft Hightower. But Martin would make me just as happy, and Upshaw would be great as well. Jmo.
The Senator Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Both Levitre and Urbik are solid starters. You want one of them to switch solely to a backup role for no reason just so we can draft DeCastro? That makes no sense to me. No, I want them both to continue starting at guard, and for Levitre be available to play LT behind Hariston & Bell in emergency should both Hairston and Bell both become injured, and for Urbik to be moved around as well. Just like I posted. Just like Levitre and Urbik did last season when Hairston, Bell, and Eric Wood were all injured at the same time. And that would make adding depth at the guard position much more crucial than anyone apparently cares to admit at this time. Plus there is the obvious inevitability (obvious to me at least) that, having all been drafted in 2009, Urbik-Levitre-Wood will not be here together forever. We are bound to lose one or more of them in the next two or three years, either to trade, free agency, injury, etc., or simply thru attrition as the Bills draft even better players...like David DeCastro. (Unless, of course, you see no need to continually improve and add depth at every position, or plan for the future - or are perfectly happy with Michael Jasper as your future starting guard.) . Edited March 19, 2012 by The Senator
Reed83HOF Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Absolutely not, at least not with the #10. Remember, we just used a VERY early #2 on a corner. Look at the jets if you will.....They are paying Revis almost as much as we will pay Mario. The results? No playoffs, and they had to extend Sanchez, a so-so qb at best, to do so. Dick Drawn explains it better than me. In 4 or 5 wide sets, even a "shut down corner" only covers one receiver. But, today teams go with 4 or even 5 wide sets. Corners were never a good idea to build a team around. Now it makes even less sense. As for us, we have (imho) but one credible LB on the team. That would be Barnett, who is on the wrong side of 30. And, we have an obvious need at LT. If Nix/Gailey loved Bell, he would be signed. And if GMs around the league believed in him, he would have a 75 million dollar contract. One of the very best posters on this board (John C) hates me for it lol, but I would love to see them trade down just a few spots and draft Hightower. But Martin would make me just as happy, and Upshaw would be great as well. Jmo. I entirely respect your opinion, your post game comments are almost always spot on. There are a bunch of spots we need to shore up. LB we have a few and we drafted them over the past couple years, how well they fit in in our new scheme with Wanny, we will see - they seem to be high on Sheppard though. As you said above with the 4-5 WR sets, we won't have 3LBs out there at one time too often, but we do need depth and they do stop the run. If I read the Wanny article right today, he places the emphasis on the DL and the secondary. I'm not trying to argue against an LB or anything, just really trying to figure out where the value of higher picks should go on our D. Williams was drafted very early last year and looks like he might be a capable player. I have no faith in McGee staying healthy and Leodis has been terribly inconsistent at best, usually not that good. Locking up a player like Revis costs a ton; I am not advocating that. I find the FA value way too high and like you said is Revis worth as much as Mario, no way in hell; a shutdown CB can only cover one person, where Mario creates all sorts of havoc. You do have to admit he (Revis in this instance) does have an impact on the game and can shut down an opposing offense's #1 WR. Are these the types of players that you should draft high, sign for 5-6 years and let go? I know it is a waste to let them go, but they get way overpaid. You don't see the Revis type player often in the latter rounds, you may find capable DBs out there. We did this with McKelvin and he was a wasted pick imo; however when you get the right guy, it pays dividends for the rest of the D while he is under contract. I admit I struggle at placing value on it. John does make lots of good points - I do agree with him in regards to the LT position. It is important, but I think you can make up for it in other areas. If you are in a position to get that amazing LT, you should do it; but I wouldn't go out of my way for it especially if the rest of your line is solid. I think a true big possession WR and a decent LT would help the OL more than a franchise LT, which there is only 1 clear cut one in this draft. jmo of course...
LynchMob23 Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Absolutely not, at least not with the #10. Remember, we just used a VERY early #2 on a corner. Look at the jets if you will.....They are paying Revis almost as much as we will pay Mario. The results? No playoffs, and they had to extend Sanchez, a so-so qb at best, to do so. Dick Drawn explains it better than me. In 4 or 5 wide sets, even a "shut down corner" only covers one receiver. But, today teams go with 4 or even 5 wide sets. Corners were never a good idea to build a team around. Now it makes even less sense. As for us, we have (imho) but one credible LB on the team. That would be Barnett, who is on the wrong side of 30. And, we have an obvious need at LT. If Nix/Gailey loved Bell, he would be signed. And if GMs around the league believed in him, he would have a 75 million dollar contract. One of the very best posters on this board (John C) hates me for it lol, but I would love to see them trade down just a few spots and draft Hightower. But Martin would make me just as happy, and Upshaw would be great as well. Jmo. One problem with that logic Bill, though it cuts into another area you like - Coach Wannstedt's defense calls for maximum resource allocation to the defensive line, and as long as you can run and hit he's fine with you at linebacker. With that in mind, if they traded back and are using their biggest asset (#1 pick) they would most likely go for a lineman on defense, as they're more useful to him than any of the rookie LBs, Hightower notwithstanding.
The Senator Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 DeCastro in round one; Hightower in round two. JMO.
Bill from NYC Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 I entirely respect your opinion, your post game comments are almost always spot on. There are a bunch of spots we need to shore up. LB we have a few and we drafted them over the past couple years, how well they fit in in our new scheme with Wanny, we will see - they seem to be high on Sheppard though. As you said above with the 4-5 WR sets, we won't have 3LBs out there at one time too often, but we do need depth and they do stop the run. If I read the Wanny article right today, he places the emphasis on the DL and the secondary. I'm not trying to argue against an LB or anything, just really trying to figure out where the value of higher picks should go on our D. Williams was drafted very early last year and looks like he might be a capable player. I have no faith in McGee staying healthy and Leodis has been terribly inconsistent at best, usually not that good. Locking up a player like Revis costs a ton; I am not advocating that. I find the FA value way too high and like you said is Revis worth as much as Mario, no way in hell; a shutdown CB can only cover one person, where Mario creates all sorts of havoc. You do have to admit he (Revis in this instance) does have an impact on the game and can shut down an opposing offense's #1 WR. Are these the types of players that you should draft high, sign for 5-6 years and let go? I know it is a waste to let them go, but they get way overpaid. You don't see the Revis type player often in the latter rounds, you may find capable DBs out there. We did this with McKelvin and he was a wasted pick imo; however when you get the right guy, it pays dividends for the rest of the D while he is under contract. I admit I struggle at placing value on it. John does make lots of good points - I do agree with him in regards to the LT position. It is important, but I think you can make up for it in other areas. If you are in a position to get that amazing LT, you should do it; but I wouldn't go out of my way for it especially if the rest of your line is solid. I think a true big possession WR and a decent LT would help the OL more than a franchise LT, which there is only 1 clear cut one in this draft. jmo of course... Thanks! It is very hard to place value on some of these players, but Revis is a great example. The man is great at what he does. But if he was on the Bills making 15 million and sucking away cap space, I make the case that there would be no way we would have signed Mario. The Jets had to re-negotiate with Sanchez just to stay under the cap. This after a very disappointing season. But, Jet fans can sit around and say, "Revis is great." As far as a possession wr vs. a franchise LT, I will always lean towards the franchise LT, if only because they are so hard to get. He wouldn't have to be Ogden/W. Jones/Pace either. A Glenn/Hopkins/Light would suit me just fine. And LTs are the easiest players to keep. Their tag price is lower than that of corners because linemen are lumped in together for some reason. And drafting dbs in round 1, only to let them walk, is a recipe for failure. One created by the Buffalo Bills. Again, jmo.
Toshiero Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Honestly I think Jim Kelly let the cat out of the bag a little. Nix keeps saying that he isn't going to reach "at #10". I think they have every intention on trading down and getting more picks then take a LT. Just because some 'expert' has so and so rated #1-#whatever does that mean teams do. Nor does it mean they work out. We can get a guy lower in the 1st that can come in a do the job and do it well.
Kelly the Dog Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Honestly I think Jim Kelly let the cat out of the bag a little. Nix keeps saying that he isn't going to reach "at #10". I think they have every intention on trading down and getting more picks then take a LT. Just because some 'expert' has so and so rated #1-#whatever does that mean teams do. Nor does it mean they work out. We can get a guy lower in the 1st that can come in a do the job and do it well. Nix has repeatedly said he doesn't like to trade down. It's not impossible but it's unlikely. Some team would have to blow them out of the water with the trade offer AND Nix would need to not be high on a player in a position of need like LT or WR.
hondo in seattle Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Have you looked around at the AFC east lately? There is not one great edge rusher on any teams (except Buffalo hopefully). You don't need a great OT in an offensive scheme that is built off of the 3 step drop game. Slants, speed cuts, screens are our bread and butter because those are Fitz's strengths. He is not a 5 step QB. He can't throw the deep ball to save his life so he doesn't need 5 seconds in the pocket. It's unbelievable that some people cant understand this. You don't "need" great players at any position if you're content with mediocrity. Pretty much everyone on this board 'understands' that Fitz doesn't throw a great long ball and Chan prefers a quick-hitting passing attack anyway so maybe having a great OT isn't as important to the Bills as it is to teams that likes to throw deep. But teams that win Super Bowls usually have good offensive lines. OTs don't just protect 5 step QBs. They open holes for RBs too. And I'm not confident I can count on Hairston to protect Fitz (even just 3 steps back) or open holes for Freddy. I hope he either surprises me - or we find someone better.
Kelly the Dog Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 You don't "need" great players at any position if you're content with mediocrity. Pretty much everyone on this board 'understands' that Fitz doesn't throw a great long ball and Chan prefers a quick-hitting passing attack anyway so maybe having a great OT isn't as important to the Bills as it is to teams that likes to throw deep. But teams that win Super Bowls usually have good offensive lines. OTs don't just protect 5 step QBs. They open holes for RBs too. And I'm not confident I can count on Hairston to protect Fitz (even just 3 steps back) or open holes for Freddy. I hope he either surprises me - or we find someone better. Chan doesn't prefer a short passing game, Chan built the Bills short passing offense around the fact we had crappy tackles and other linemen who couldn't keep the opposing teams pass rush off our QB for more than 2-3 seconds.
Pirate Angel Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Is langston Walker still around....he was a good Left Tackle:wallbash::bag: we could even bring back 68 seconds with Langston Walker Edited March 19, 2012 by BILLriant
Owen Posted March 19, 2012 Author Posted March 19, 2012 Buddy Nix knows the importance of having a solid left tackle that is dependable and durable... Fitzpatric had to have a quick release last season because of weak tackles... and yes he was pressured a lot... especially when Bell was out of action... No way does he want to get his QB injured. He wants to give him more time in the pocket.. He will be more effective... That is why he will select a quality OLT in the first round. As I can see from the readers...they want other positions to be selected which is all well and good if you have a good OLT which the Bills presently do not... Until that position is settled by Buddy Nix it will be the most improtant for the Bills to fill with a top priority pick... There are really good DEs, WRs, CBs, and OLBs in rounds 2 thru 4 this season...Buddy will fill those holes in the draft with the best athlete available when he picks....
Reed83HOF Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Thanks! It is very hard to place value on some of these players, but Revis is a great example. The man is great at what he does. But if he was on the Bills making 15 million and sucking away cap space, I make the case that there would be no way we would have signed Mario. The Jets had to re-negotiate with Sanchez just to stay under the cap. This after a very disappointing season. But, Jet fans can sit around and say, "Revis is great." As far as a possession wr vs. a franchise LT, I will always lean towards the franchise LT, if only because they are so hard to get. He wouldn't have to be Ogden/W. Jones/Pace either. A Glenn/Hopkins/Light would suit me just fine. And LTs are the easiest players to keep. Their tag price is lower than that of corners because linemen are lumped in together for some reason. And drafting dbs in round 1, only to let them walk, is a recipe for failure. One created by the Buffalo Bills. Again, jmo. Revis on the Bills right now under a second contract makes no sense; the dollars are no way close in equaling the value. When it comes to a franchise game-changing possession WR or a franchise LT, again I come back to value at that moment in time and what the rest of your line is like. We need to an some more depth on the OL, but our glaring weakness is at LT. If you have a great interior, I think you don't have to reach or search out a franchise LT. If the player falls in your lap you need to grab him. You have to have a solid line. Where we are this year, there is no clear cut favorite; so I would hate to reach. The value of the 2nd best WR in Floyd is much better imo. A big physical WR who piles up YAC, makes people miss and makes big catches in traffic; finding a FA WR will cost Revis/Mario/Megatron $$ and for a building team like us a waste. If you grab him at #10, sign him to a max 1st round contract, you get great value. I don't have an issue drafting DBs in round 1 and letting them walk if it is once every 4 or 5 years, once your team is built and more pressing holes are filled. This season I see it a bit different, because our secondary is getting a bit older. Yeah we drafted Searcy and Williams last season; but I don't see our 2 starting CBs making it through the season. One will be benched, the other most likely have a bum leg again. This season if the 2nd best CB was there and the WR option is gone, I think this would help our D the most right now. In this draft class I don't see an LT @ #10 that has the value to take with that pick. The DE/LB at that pick would be a reach as well. As well, jmo. I'm glad I don't have to make this pick. I will be happy whoever we get, as long as it isn't a Whitner pick that makes you go WHAT?! WHO?!
TheKidd Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Left tackle is the 2nd most important position next to QB... Right now, OLT Bell has been offered a contract that the Bills can live with... It may or may not be what Bell wants... Unfortunately for him he is injuried too often to make starter money. Bills need a quality Left Tackle that is not only good but durable... That is why I believe they will draft one with their 10th pick even if Bell re-signs... I looked at the top Left tackles.. Matt Kail will be gone before the Bills select... Riley Reiff is tough as hell but has short arms and is better suited for guard Jonathan Martin has all the qualification for a starting LT but some say he is soft. Warning sign for lack of heart Mike Adams is there for a starting LT position... Has all the qualifications... but will be picked at the lower end of the 1st round... The LT I like who I think Buddy would pick at #10 has 6'5' height...346 lbs...10 inch hands, 35" plus arms,84 5/8 wing span, dominate work ethic, powerful and mobile with good balance..He can play OLT or guard... comes from a good southern school where Buddy likes to pick them... His name is Cordy Glenn... Watch him go up in the charts. I like the pick of left tackle here because in rounds 2 thru 4 there are quality WRs, CBs and OLBs to choose from. Fixing the O-line should be a top priority this year and getting any one of those LTs whom Buddy likes hopefully will be the right move... But Buddy has to really like him at #10... ------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Kalil is the only offensive tackle worthy of a top ten pick. If the Bills don't trade down, they will be reaching if they pick any of the other guys you mentioned. But knowing the Bills and looking at how many blown number ones in the past, I would bet they reach. I just saw an article about teams and how they have drafted. Of the teams in our division Buffalo has the WORST drafting record the past decade. Our whole scouting department should be fired. The Bills finish at the bottom of the heap every year, giving them great drafting position, but they blow it almost every year. After Kalil there is a HUGE drop off. It would be a lot smarter if they drafted a tackle in round 2. But except for Dareus, when was the last time Buffalo ever drafted smart?
TheKidd Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Left tackle is the 2nd most important position next to QB... Right now, OLT Bell has been offered a contract that the Bills can live with... It may or may not be what Bell wants... Unfortunately for him he is injuried too often to make starter money. Bills need a quality Left Tackle that is not only good but durable... That is why I believe they will draft one with their 10th pick even if Bell re-signs... I looked at the top Left tackles.. Matt Kail will be gone before the Bills select... Riley Reiff is tough as hell but has short arms and is better suited for guard Jonathan Martin has all the qualification for a starting LT but some say he is soft. Warning sign for lack of heart Mike Adams is there for a starting LT position... Has all the qualifications... but will be picked at the lower end of the 1st round... The LT I like who I think Buddy would pick at #10 has 6'5' height...346 lbs...10 inch hands, 35" plus arms,84 5/8 wing span, dominate work ethic, powerful and mobile with good balance..He can play OLT or guard... comes from a good southern school where Buddy likes to pick them... His name is Cordy Glenn... Watch him go up in the charts. I like the pick of left tackle here because in rounds 2 thru 4 there are quality WRs, CBs and OLBs to choose from. Fixing the O-line should be a top priority this year and getting any one of those LTs whom Buddy likes hopefully will be the right move... But Buddy has to really like him at #10... ------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Kalil is the only offensive tackle worthy of a top ten pick. If the Bills don't trade down, they will be reaching if they pick any of the other guys you mentioned. But knowing the Bills and looking at how many blown number ones in the past, I would bet they reach. I just saw an article about teams and how they have drafted. Of the teams in our division Buffalo has the WORST drafting record the past decade. Our whole scouting department should be fired. The Bills finish at the bottom of the heap every year, giving them great drafting position, but they blow it almost every year. After Kalil there is a HUGE drop off. It would be a lot smarter if they drafted a tackle in round 2. But except for Dareus, when was the last time Buffalo ever drafted smart?
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