why our 3/4 didn't work

[3rdand12]

Mr Wannstache seems to have a very clear destination with his defense. he spent a year watching and now will implement what he has learned about our players and putting them in a position to succeed.

We shall see what we draft to fill up the roster. What makes the difference with offence or D coaching is can you get the team to playoffs without your wish list complete.

From the outside it seems to me we learned from our mistakes and are trying to correct them. but i think the draft will will tell us a lot more about where the team is headed. Fa just showed that we can comply with the salary cap demand i mean we had to spend this much anyways. we still have 12.9 left. thats about 10% that we can roll i think, if we choose. lets use it wisely, Buddy.

[John Cocktosten]

Except I sincerely doubt that Carter and Anderson would have had 10 sacks combined playing on the Bills. Teams are looking at both of them as average free agent players even after those seasons. And while it's easy to say it's because they are getting old, that didnt stop Abraham from getting serious money. You don't really think that Carter and Anderson, playing on the Bills, would have had 8-10 sacks each, do you?

 

My point was that Buddy didn't have a backup plan for Merriman when there was quality depth out there in FA and the draft. I'm sure that they would've gotten more than the combined 10.5 sacks that all of our OLBs combined for.

[Kelly the Dog]

My point was that Buddy didn't have a backup plan for Merriman when there was quality depth out there in FA and the draft. I'm sure that they would've gotten more than the combined 10.5 sacks that all of our OLBs combined for.

You mean except for the fact that they were ends? In our defense only one of them would have been playing at a time, because neither of them would have beat out Chris Kelsay, however crazy that may be, neither of them would have been on the field much the first four games of the season when we played Dareus, Kyle Williams and Merriman across the front (with kelsay at OLB and Edwards at RDE) and would have in all likelihood started Kelsay-Dareus-Williams-Merriman if we were still in a 4-3.

 

I'm not defending our strategy, and it clearly did not work. All I am saying is that Mark Anderson and Andre Carter were really not the solutions to our problems, nor mistakes in not getting them in free agency.

[DrDawkinstein]

My point was that Buddy didn't have a backup plan for Merriman when there was quality depth out there in FA and the draft. I'm sure that they would've gotten more than the combined 10.5 sacks that all of our OLBs combined for.

 

Except if he picked Reed instead of Williams, and with the injuries to our secondary that forced Williams into a starting role, you'd be criticizing Nix for not filling the CB hole and thinking McGee would last all year.

 

Again, you cant fix everything each offseason. You can only address/add so many pieces at a time. Nix has done everything exactly how he's promised to. Not sure what more you are expecting.

[Malazan]

Except if he picked Reed instead of Williams, and with the injuries to our secondary that forced Williams into a starting role, you'd be criticizing Nix for not filling the CB hole and thinking McGee would last all year.

 

When you're not the man making the calls, it's easy to criticize everything that goes wrong. There's just some people in the world who the idea that they could be wrong never even occurs to them. They're looking forward to that promotion to evening shift manager and it makes them arrogant.

[Sisyphean Bills]

When you're not the man making the calls, it's easy to criticize everything that goes wrong. There's just some people in the world who the idea that they could be wrong never even occurs to them. They're looking forward to that promotion to evening shift manager and it makes them arrogant.

Have you googled around for a board that's about bashing "The Others" because they hold/write viewpoints you don't like? This board is for discussing football and the Buffalo Bills.

[JohnC]

I don't know. Rex Ryan was able to quickly identify that Aaron Maybin had a single skill -- rushing the passer from the outside -- and that skill would be maximized in a scheme that tried to overload the zone from which he was rushing.

 

You got a good point about Rex getting more out of Maybin than the Bills did. But let's see how long he remains on the roster with his limited skills associated with his speed and his lack of football acumen.

 

If another team can get some productivity out of Maybin then more power to them. In selecting him when players such as Orakpo, Mathews and Cushing were available is one of the organization's long list of bonehead draft mistakes. The Gailey/Nix regime was right in acknowledging the mistake and moving on for the benefit of the team and the player.

Edited March 18, 2012 by JohnC

[John Cocktosten]

You mean except for the fact that they were ends? In our defense only one of them would have been playing at a time, because neither of them would have beat out Chris Kelsay, however crazy that may be, neither of them would have been on the field much the first four games of the season when we played Dareus, Kyle Williams and Merriman across the front (with kelsay at OLB and Edwards at RDE) and would have in all likelihood started Kelsay-Dareus-Williams-Merriman if we were still in a 4-3.

 

The Pats played 5 man fronts a ton this year. They wind up using the 3-4 more with the emergance of Anderson, Carter and Ninkovich.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=320205017

NEXT LEVEL: The Patriots began the game with their base 3-4 defense on the field for 8 of the Giants' first 11 plays, and used it 56 percent of the time in the first half. They then switched to their base 4-3 predominantly in the second half, and allowed twice as many yards per play in the process.

 

You can't be serious that neither guy wouldn't beat out Kelsay right? Kelsay can't cover, can't keep outside contain and can't rush the passer...okay? This is another case of Bills Stockholm Syndrome. Were gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

Edited March 18, 2012 by John Cocktosten

[BobChalmers]

Teams already figured out the 34 btitzing schemes and we just didn't have good enough guys to run it.

 

"I really believe the game has changed some," he said. "Ten years ago, eight years ago, when all the fire zones and blitzes became a big, big factor, you were able to scheme and trick guys and pick up a lot of sacks because offenses weren't ready to handle it. Now the good offenses are."

 

"You've got to attack a protection and make 'em block you one on one," Wannstedt said. "If you have good enough players, better players, and they win one on one, you get sacks and pressure. If your players aren't good enough, you can run the same blitzes as other teams, but you aren't going to get the pressures." Dave Wannstedt

 

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/article769045.ece?twobillsdrive

 

We had a 4-3 DT playing OLB. It's all about the talent/players.

[Kelly the Dog]

The Pats played 5 man fronts a ton this year. They wind up using the 3-4 more with the emergance of Anderson, Carter and Ninkovich.

http://scores.espn.g...ameId=320205017

NEXT LEVEL: The Patriots began the game with their base 3-4 defense on the field for 8 of the Giants' first 11 plays, and used it 56 percent of the time in the first half. They then switched to their base 4-3 predominantly in the second half, and allowed twice as many yards per play in the process.

 

You can't be serious that neither guy wouldn't beat out Kelsay right? Kelsay can't cover, can't keep outside contain and can't rush the passer...okay? This is another case of Bills Stockholm Syndrome. Were gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm saying they wouldnt beat out Kelsay not because of what you or I think of Kelsay, but because of what the Bills coaches and front office think of Kelsay, and every Bills coach has thought of Kelsay. As well as neither of them would have beat out Merriman for the first five games until he shut it down, which is what I said.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Spencer Johnson, Danny Batten, Chris Kelsay, Arhtur Moats and Shawn Merriman playing OLB were the reason that it didn't work. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't forget Troup and Carrington.

[Dragonborn10]

Chris Kelsay, OLB ...nuff said

[BillsWatch]

There is the question of talent.

 

I personally think we could have done better with what we had. I believe the hybrid 3-4, 4-3 scheme we were running was too complicated and required the players to do too much thinking.

They had different roles depending on the pre-snap read and then their own read post snap and if they weren't all on the same page it left gaps.

We had young players and a constantly changing cast due to injuries. I believe they could have done better if they were told "here's your role, that's your guy, 'sic 'em"

 

But that's just me.

 

IMO the 3-4 could have succeeded last year if not for (1) NFL strike which took a lot of time away from team trying to gel, (2) New NFLPA rules allowing limiting numbwe of games with pads (how do you get better at tacking w/o tackling?), and injuries. Good players think, anticipate and adjust which is what hybrid defense is about.

[TheKidd]

Teams already figured out the 34 btitzing schemes and we just didn't have good enough guys to run it.

 

"I really believe the game has changed some," he said. "Ten years ago, eight years ago, when all the fire zones and blitzes became a big, big factor, you were able to scheme and trick guys and pick up a lot of sacks because offenses weren't ready to handle it. Now the good offenses are."

 

"You've got to attack a protection and make 'em block you one on one," Wannstedt said. "If you have good enough players, better players, and they win one on one, you get sacks and pressure. If your players aren't good enough, you can run the same blitzes as other teams, but you aren't going to get the pressures." Dave Wannstedt

 

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/article769045.ece?twobillsdrive

 

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LOL You're funny when it comes to understanding football. There is one reason and only one reason 34 didn't work. The talent of the players you have in the scheme. If you have rotten players any scheme you play won't work. On the other side of the coin, if you have good players they will make any scheme look good. It's not the scheme, it's the talent. The majority of players on the Bills defense stink out loud and couldn't make the final cut on another NFL team. You can't win with garbage, no matter what scheme you use. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

IMO the 3-4 could have succeeded last year if not for (1) NFL strike which took a lot of time away from team trying to gel, (2) New NFLPA rules allowing limiting numbwe of games with pads (how do you get better at tacking w/o tackling?), and injuries. Good players think, anticipate and adjust which is what hybrid defense is about.

 

You make valid points about the lockout, and I agree that good players think, anticipate and adjust. The best players have their position down so well that they don't need to think, they just react on intuition to anticipate and adjust.

 

But young players, or players adjusting to a new position (the majority of our D last year), take too much time to think and sometimes adjust wrong. Absolutely the lockout didn't help us, but neither IMO did a defense that required more thinking and adjusting.

 

There is a reason GB and the Texans both cited "simplification" as a reason for improved D.

[John from Riverside]

I dont see how anyone could bash last years draft....

 

- Darius....well...its fricken Marcel Darius and was a no brainer at that position...BUT....NIX COULD have screwed up that pick and taken a QB or something.....he doesn't deserve a tone of credit on Marcel but he does deserve credit for not screwing up the pick which we seem to have been doing for a while.

 

- Williams.....this pick might not have been as glamorous as a QB or a pass rushign linebacker...but come on.....it WAS a good pick....a 1st round talent corner with good size, tackling ability, a guy that you can put on the bigger wideouts of the league....he ended up getting hurt the first year and missing time.....but frankly I thought it was the correct pick. Mgee is almost done, McKelvin looks like a bust at this point. Florence should be better with a pass rush. I actually like Justin Rogers. But Williams WAS a need.

 

- Shep....some interesting notes on Shep. I heard some commentary that Shep got better as the season went you....if you asked me I thought he got WORSE as the season went on. This isn't a knock on the player....when Shep stepped on the field I saw a instinctual player who was a hitter.......I thought that the complicated defensive scheme actually screwed him up as time went on not made him better. Shep is a INSTINCT player.....he makes a read then he committs to that decision...you force him to keep reading the defense and keep reading the defense...and thinking about it too much then you take away from him what makes him good. I thought that Dave W. comments about simplifying this defense were SPOT on......dont make defensive players think too much and they will get to their area of responsibility much faster....seriously

[tennesseeboy]

Gregg and Chan made the same mistake. Gregg went into the 4/3 without the personnel and disgruntled existing quality personnel (Hansen retired). Chan went to the 3/4 without the personnel and lost disgruntled quality personnel (Schobel). You can't run a race until you have a racehorse.

[John from Riverside]

I thought it was interesting that when Williams signed you heard grumblings of Schrobel wanting to come out of retirement.....

 

The bills are not dead....they were just broken. I feel like they really are fixing it.

[Reed83HOF]

The first season with Nix and Gailey was just used for evaluations, we still had Modrak and other leftovers who were in charge of the draft. Last season was our first true shot with drafting and signing for the 34. Once we signed on Wanny and we ended up with Dareus @3; personnel dictated that we had to go back to the 43. I think it was clear that Edwards was on thin ice going into last season, I think there was a definite concern and gut feeling within the organization he would be let go and Wanny would take over. Why we just didn't pull the plug early is beyond me...

 

Personally I like the 34 way more than the 43, but it doesn't make sense for us if we want to win anytime soon. Up until this year, we were a "toxic" team. The top ranked Ds may be a 34, but that talent wouldn't want to come here unless we overpaid and that wasn't going to happen. This move back fits our personnel, we havea coach who knows how to coach it and overall it will make our D look a lot better.

[John from Riverside]

The first season with Nix and Gailey was just used for evaluations, we still had Modrak and other leftovers who were in charge of the draft. Last season was our first true shot with drafting and signing for the 34. Once we signed on Wanny and we ended up with Dareus @3; personnel dictated that we had to go back to the 43. I think it was clear that Edwards was on thin ice going into last season, I think there was a definite concern and gut feeling within the organization he would be let go and Wanny would take over. Why we just didn't pull the plug early is beyond me...

 

Personally I like the 34 way more than the 43, but it doesn't make sense for us if we want to win anytime soon. Up until this year, we were a "toxic" team. The top ranked Ds may be a 34, but that talent wouldn't want to come here unless we overpaid and that wasn't going to happen. This move back fits our personnel, we havea coach who knows how to coach it and overall it will make our D look a lot better.

 

 

Actually....I think the defenses are starting to trend back to the 43 where once upon a time the 34 was the glamor defense.....

 

The Giants are starting it.....now people are starting to mimic it.......dominant defensive lines that get your pressures and sacks and then setting up coverages to confuse QB's into either throwing the ball away or throwing into coverage and making a mistake...OR...holdng the ball and getting sacked.

 

Wanny likes the way the Giants do it.....and the Giants have the Patriots number.