Alaska Darin Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (conservatives want it as loose as possible generally and liberals wanting it tighter than that). It's hard to have any sort of debate when you frame things in such a blindingly retarded fashion. "Conservatives want it as loose as possible" may be a fair statement - if Republicans were actually conservative anywhere but the campaign trail. "Liberals want it tighter than that". Care to tell me how many pages the US Code needs to be before "liberals" have it "tight enough" for their liking? See Switzerland OK. Automatic weapons for every able bodied adult. I love how liberals think they can use a country with a population that's comparable to most large US cities, has a land mass about a third the size of New York State, as their example of Socialist Utopia. Very realistic. I'm sure the extrapolation works. Somehow. I tell you what. You start paying double for everything you buy and I'll start believing you're serious about a "living wage", because that's what it's going to take to even start that conversation. We'll ignore the downstream affects like inflation and job loss (imagine how cheap China's goods are going to look when the cost of making anything in the U.S. doubles overnight). Later you can attend a Union rally and scream about how all the manufacturing jobs were sent "overseas" because you decided it was a good idea to pay the ticket taker at the !@#$ing movie theater $32k a year. Reality. Live in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I love how liberals think they can use a country with a population that's comparable to most large US cities, has a land mass about a third the size of New York State, as their example of Socialist Utopia. Very realistic. I'm sure the extrapolation works. Somehow. I tell you what. You start paying double for everything you buy and I'll start believing you're serious about a "living wage", because that's what it's going to take to even start that conversation. We'll ignore the downstream affects like inflation and job loss (imagine how cheap China's goods are going to look when the cost of making anything in the U.S. doubles overnight). Later you can attend a Union rally and scream about how all the manufacturing jobs were sent "overseas" because you decided it was a good idea to pay the ticket taker at the !@#$ing movie theater $32k a year. Reality. Live in it. i didn't say we had to mirror the swiss. i used them as a counterexample to s africa. nevertheless, i'll bet arguments similar to yours were used against the emancipation of the slaves. that worked out ok despite the obvious economic implications and besides that it was the right thing to do. we can't compete with chinese peasant wages now nor should we try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 i didn't say we had to mirror the swiss. i used them as a counterexample to s africa. nevertheless, i'll bet arguments similar to yours were used against the emancipation of the slaves. that worked out ok despite the obvious economic implications and besides that it was the right thing to do. we can't compete with chinese peasant wages now nor should we try. When reality fails, pull out the worst possible comparative example to prove your point. I'm sure you love it when the Republican apologists compare your political views to Hitler's Nazi's, right hypocrite? People who have skills get paid a living wage. People who fill popcorn buckets, stock shelves, mop floors, and/or take orders at fast food restaurants don't and shouldn't. At the end of the day, all of you "big government" idiots are getting the "Utopia" you deserve because you don't understand causal relationships or the big picture. Everything is more expensive and lower quality BECAUSE of your political views and the execution, not in spite of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) When reality fails, pull out the worst possible comparative example to prove your point. I'm sure you love it when the Republican apologists compare your political views to Hitler's Nazi's, right hypocrite? People who have skills get paid a living wage. People who fill popcorn buckets, stock shelves, mop floors, and/or take orders at fast food restaurants don't and shouldn't. At the end of the day, all of you "big government" idiots are getting the "Utopia" you deserve because you don't understand causal relationships or the big picture. Everything is more expensive and lower quality BECAUSE of your political views and the execution, not in spite of it. i freely admitted that costs would increase for goods and services. they're artificially low because of exploitation of an entire underclass of people who you apparently believe don't deserve adequate shelter, health care or decent general living conditions. Edited March 8, 2012 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 i freely admitted that costs would increase for goods and services. they're artificially low because of exploitation of an entire underclass of people who you apparently believe don't deserve adequate shelter, health care or decent general living conditions. ... while conveniently ignoring that the reason these people who apparently don't have adequate shelter, health care or decent general living conditions is because in the preceding 50 years they've been following a collectivist ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 ... while conveniently ignoring that the reason these people who apparently don't have adequate shelter, health care or decent general living conditions is because in the preceding 50 years they've been following a collectivist ideal. really? who's gonna flip your burgers? wipe your grandpas butt at the nursing home? pick your tomatoes? clean your hotel room or office? tend to your garden? etc., etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 really? who's gonna flip your burgers? wipe your grandpas butt at the nursing home? pick your tomatoes? clean your hotel room or office? tend to your garden? etc., etc, etc. I don't even know where to start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 really? who's gonna flip your burgers? wipe your grandpas butt at the nursing home? pick your tomatoes? clean your hotel room or office? tend to your garden? etc., etc, etc. My guess is that would be the same class of people who've toiled in low skill jobs since humanity learned to use a rock as a tool. At least capitalism recognizes that different skills and abilities deserve different rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 really? who's gonna flip your burgers? wipe your grandpas butt at the nursing home? pick your tomatoes? clean your hotel room or office? tend to your garden? etc., etc, etc. As long as we can keep the gun out of Jim in AK's hands? Mexicans of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 My guess is that would be the same class of people who've toiled in low skill jobs since humanity learned to use a rock as a tool. At least capitalism recognizes that different skills and abilities deserve different rewards. and that recognition doesn't require low skilled workers to be paid at below the poverty level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 and that recognition doesn't require low skilled workers to be paid at below the poverty level. ...as determined by cost of living, as determined by cost of living compared to wages earned. And you've already admitted that a "living wage" raises prices. Think it through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 and that recognition doesn't require low skilled workers to be paid at below the poverty level. Which completely ignores the reality of capital & labor mobility. So taboo is the topic among the chardonnay set, that even Krugman won't publicly defend the theories that won him the Nobel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) ...as determined by cost of living, as determined by cost of living compared to wages earned. And you've already admitted that a "living wage" raises prices. Think it through. yes, it's not a gordion knot. there is a point where wages meet a basic standard of living despite increased cost...like um, in switzerland. Edited March 8, 2012 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 i freely admitted that costs would increase for goods and services. they're artificially low because of exploitation of an entire underclass of people who you apparently believe don't deserve adequate shelter, health care or decent general living conditions. If the costs of goods goes up, then their wages become less than a living wage again. Do you get it yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 yes, it's not a gordion knot. there is a point where wages meet a basic standard of living despite increased cost...like um, in switzerland. You mean like this Switzerland, which is like the US? http://www.isyours.com/e/swiss-business-guide/underground.html "You are not likely to see any of the minuscule Swiss underground economy while traveling in Switzerland on business. Taxes being low and government reasonably small, most people see no need to hide what they do unless they deal in things illegal. The worst you will see is foreigners who work in restaurants or on construction sites without the proper work permit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 yes, it's not a gordion knot. there is a point where wages meet a basic standard of living despite increased cost...like um, in switzerland. Why don't you explain to the class how you're going to structurally alter the US economy to make it more like Switzerland's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Why don't you explain to the class how you're going to structurally alter the US economy to make it more like Switzerland's? Secret bank accounts and Nazi treasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 http://www.isyours.com/e/swiss-business-guide/underground.html "You are not likely to see any of the minuscule Swiss underground economy while traveling in Switzerland on business. Taxes being low and government reasonably small, most people see no need to hide what they do unless they deal in things illegal. The worst you will see is foreigners who work in restaurants or on construction sites without the proper work permit." and? therefore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 and? therefore? ... the undocumented foreigners earn lower than the standard "working wage" of upstanding Swiss citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 ... the undocumented foreigners earn lower than the standard "working wage" of upstanding Swiss citizens. they aren't there in great numbers: "miniscule underground economy". there will always be some cheaters. there not very well tolerated by the swiss however. they're rules people: think parochial school without the religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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