Now Greg Williams is a cheater?

[bbb]

How about pictures of guys strapped onto boards being put in ambulances?

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Just a thought - - it would be interesting to see if there was any correlation between the use of the throat-slashing gesture that the NFL outlawed a few years back and the use of any injury-based bounty system by the gesturing player's team.

[jumbalaya]

Pro football is rough enough sport and there is no place for purposely injuring somebody. Yes we all now it happens but to actibvely promote and contribute dollars to the pot means that Greggo should be suspended for a full year without pay and fined heavily, Sean Payton should be heavily fined for letting his buddy contribute to the pot and the GM should be suspended for a year and fined even more than idiot Greggo. Then the Saints should lose their first round pick. These guys won't change until someone dies on the field and then it will be too late for one more guy. It is already too late for Daryl Stingley.

[NoSaint]

Pro football is rough enough sport and there is no place for purposely injuring somebody. Yes we all now it happens but to actibvely promote and contribute dollars to the pot means that Greggo should be suspended for a full year without pay and fined heavily, Sean Payton should be heavily fined for letting his buddy contribute to the pot and the GM should be suspended for a year and fined even more than idiot Greggo. Then the Saints should lose their first round pick. These guys won't change until someone dies on the field and then it will be too late for one more guy. It is already too late for Daryl Stingley.

 

If he did it in buff should there be consequence here too?

[BuffaloBillsSD]

If he did it in buff should there be consequence here too?

 

I was just going to ask what the appropriate punishment would be if it is found that this was going on when he was with the Bills. I am guessing the responses would be a lot more subdued.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

If he did it in buff should there be consequence here too?

If in Buffalo (1) it was paying players a bonus for causing injury and not just paying for stats like forcing a turnover or getting a sack, and (2) the league has sufficient proof, then:

 

Absolutely.

[towelie]

I'm already so sick of bountygate, and people chastising the Saints...

I hate about 80% of the nfl media and about 50% of the nfl 'fans'

[Roger Goodell]

Anyone got any lube I can borrow?

 

On second thought, nevermind.

[Chandemonium]

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=-HbehN1LET8

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I'm already so sick of bountygate, and people chastising the Saints...

I hate about 80% of the nfl media and about 50% of the nfl 'fans'

I'm glad you don't post too often.

 

I like DD but his posts in this topic are very disappointing to me.

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

I'm glad you don't post too often.

 

I like DD but his posts in this topic are very disappointing to me.

 

If more information is made public, and we find out there was a list that read along the lines of:

 

Blown Knee: $1000

Concussion: $1000

Twisted Ankle: $500

etc

 

then by all means, the Saints deserve to be punished severely.

 

However, if we find that it was vaguely named "big hit"/"had to leave field"/"knock out of game", then I stand by my post that it's no big deal.

 

Defense is about hitting. It's like paying offensive players for scoring, or gaining certain amounts of yards, or even big blocks. All the defense does is hit, and try to create turnovers. Hitting will obviously be rewarded.

 

The key point to all of this is finding out how dirty they were encouraged to be. Again, the Saints have not been known as a dirty team. Certainly not like the Steelers or Lions. So how much could this have been influencing anything?

[Bruce]

This is more wretched than Belicheat, and even worse than the players use of HGH and anabolic steroids. This is worse than cheating.

 

This type of thing should have no place in any sport- professional or amateur.

 

Paying an incentive to go above and beyond with "kill shots" is criminal. Apparently, Albert Haynesworth never got these memos from Williams (since he played for both the Titans and Redskins under Williams), as he was only motivated by a big pay day. Nonetheless, the very moniker of "kill shots", or an emphasis on taking a player out of the game is exactly the kind of ridiculous football that is shown on TV today.

 

Defenders at the Pro level should be the soundest technique-wise tacklers on the planet. Instead, we see knuckleheads, diving head first with helmet-to-helmet hits with the goal of giving the other player a concussion, and/ or knocking them out of the game.

 

It's wrong for players to be doing it. But for it to be officially sanctioned by a coach, and known by the head coach, serious penalties should be in order. Williams should be suspended for the year. Favre and Warner should be allowed to sue Williams and Peyton.

 

On a side- does anyone remember the Bills game against the Dolphins in Miami this year? Their secondary was viciously going after our WR's, to the point where they knocked 3 of them out of the game. I watched other Dolphin games and did not see this type of missile tackles, aimed at maximum damage. I was disgusted that it was dissolving into simple head hunting.

 

If more information is made public, and we find out there was a list that read along the lines of:

 

Blown Knee: $1000

Concussion: $1000

Twisted Ankle: $500

etc

 

then by all means, the Saints deserve to be punished severely.

 

However, if we find that it was vaguely named "big hit"/"had to leave field"/"knock out of game", then I stand by my post that it's no big deal.

 

Defense is about hitting. It's like paying offensive players for scoring, or gaining certain amounts of yards, or even big blocks. All the defense does is hit, and try to create turnovers. Hitting will obviously be rewarded.

 

The key point to all of this is finding out how dirty they were encouraged to be. Again, the Saints have not been known as a dirty team. Certainly not like the Steelers or Lions. So how much could this have been influencing anything?

 

 

Well, let's just say that both Gregg Williams and Sean Peyton have both issued public apologies for their behavior in supervising and sanctioning these activities.

 

If this was a minor issue, neither one apologizes for much of anything.

 

This is a huge admission that this was exactly what is being claimed.

[Bruce]

And Im not just saying "It's ok since everyone does it".

 

My point is, if these "bounty systems" were truly changing the way the game was played, they would have been exposed much earlier. And the teams using them (almost all 32) would have a lot more personal fouls.

 

These systems have been around for years, yet we see the game become less and less violent every year. So obviously the systems were more for show, and bragging, than for actually causing players to be cheap.

 

"Less and less violent"?

 

Really!?!?

 

How so?

 

Perhaps for certain positions, like the QB position. Heck, there is even the pantied-pansy tier of pro football, where if your name is Brady you can whine your way to penalizing the other team.

 

How much money is the NFL spending on concussion research every year? New helmets designed to reduce concussions? Public awareness campaigns? Player awareness campaigns?

 

OK, so if you look at 60's football there are no more defenders using things like head slaps and straight arms to bring down offensive players; and things like stomping on tackled players and breaking fingers in the pile up are practically non-existent (sorry, Romo).

 

But where is the technique used for tackling? Where is the form? I would counter and say that defenders try to consistently go for the big hit so they can make a name for themselves. A name earns respect, and earns a big pay day if it is consistent. Similar to all of the stupid sack dances players do these days, it is almost like professional wrestling with their own unique sack dance.

 

Go back and look at the 90's games with Bruce Smith- especially in normal/ non-playoff type games. He had his sack dance, but it was mild compared to the showmanship that goes on today. Regardless of the stakes of the game.

 

Saying football has become less violent is just irresponsible and out-of-touch. Less violent than what? Bodyweights are larger and moving faster due to heavy HGH and steroid abuse that the forces involved in a "tackle" are more violent than ever. Simple physics. Larger mass moving at a faster speed then suddenly stopping....if measured in terms of force, does that sound less violent or more?

[DrDawkinstein]

Well, let's just say that both Gregg Williams and Sean Peyton have both issued public apologies for their behavior in supervising and sanctioning these activities.

 

If this was a minor issue, neither one apologizes for much of anything.

 

This is a huge admission that this was exactly what is being claimed.

 

That's an opinion. You could just as easily argue that they immediately apologized and owned up to it because they know it doesnt have a lot of steam. If this is as dirty as you guys want it to be, then there will be lawyers involved, and no one would be admitting to anything.

 

The fact that they came right out and said "Yep, it was stupid and we're sorry", could be because it was the same type of bounty system almost every team uses, and it really doesn't effect the game much.

 

Again, we dont have enough info either way, and you are guessing just like me. Im just waiting to find out the facts before I get all worked up.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

If more information is made public, and we find out there was a list that read along the lines of:

 

Blown Knee: $1000

Concussion: $1000

Twisted Ankle: $500

etc

 

then by all means, the Saints deserve to be punished severely.

 

However, if we find that it was vaguely named "big hit"/"had to leave field"/"knock out of game", then I stand by my post that it's no big deal.

 

Defense is about hitting. It's like paying offensive players for scoring, or gaining certain amounts of yards, or even big blocks. All the defense does is hit, and try to create turnovers. Hitting will obviously be rewarded.

 

The key point to all of this is finding out how dirty they were encouraged to be. Again, the Saints have not been known as a dirty team. Certainly not like the Steelers or Lions. So how much could this have been influencing anything?

Thanks for replying Doc.

 

Your latest reply is a more balanced view, IMO… I don't see the point of vehemently arguing any position (yours or opposing) when we're so early in the discovery process.

 

We have yet to find out the exact nature of these bounties… there have been a lot of quotes and sound bites but many of them have been crafted to not disclose the very exact nature of Greg(g) Williams' bounty system.

 

What you suggest above as a hypothetical is exactly the crux of the biscuit and I'm far from convinced that Williams did not encourage his players to intentionally play dirty to injure other players.

 

Everyone understands and accepts the dangers of playing the world's most dangerous and violent sport… but (and I couldn't care less what a few itinerant players think and I become phucking annoyed when a person uses some moron football players' quote as ammo that such behavior is okay) when a man in a profession is willing to intentionally injure an opponent thru dirty play… I think there's plenty there (paragraphs of arguments in fact) why that is outrageous on so many levels… both from a football standpoint and also transcending football.

 

 

Onto yet another facet of this issue, have you read the articles outlining the role of Mike Orenstein in all of this?

 

IMO, until we really know what happened, there's no point in arguing how bad Williams' actions were… except hypothetically which you've now done.

 

I certainly don't see defending the guy at all… particularly with vehemence and conviction.

[BuffaloBillsSD]

Can't link since I'm on my phone but Tim Graham has former Bills players saying it happened here as well. Now how do you all feel?

[NoSaint]

This is more wretched than Belicheat, and even worse than the players use of HGH and anabolic steroids. This is worse than cheating.

 

This type of thing should have no place in any sport- professional or amateur.

 

Paying an incentive to go above and beyond with "kill shots" is criminal. Apparently, Albert Haynesworth never got these memos from Williams (since he played for both the Titans and Redskins under Williams), as he was only motivated by a big pay day. Nonetheless, the very moniker of "kill shots", or an emphasis on taking a player out of the game is exactly the kind of ridiculous football that is shown on TV today.

 

Defenders at the Pro level should be the soundest technique-wise tacklers on the planet. Instead, we see knuckleheads, diving head first with helmet-to-helmet hits with the goal of giving the other player a concussion, and/ or knocking them out of the game.

 

It's wrong for players to be doing it. But for it to be officially sanctioned by a coach, and known by the head coach, serious penalties should be in order. Williams should be suspended for the year. Favre and Warner should be allowed to sue Williams and Peyton.

 

On a side- does anyone remember the Bills game against the Dolphins in Miami this year? Their secondary was viciously going after our WR's, to the point where they knocked 3 of them out of the game. I watched other Dolphin games and did not see this type of missile tackles, aimed at maximum damage. I was disgusted that it was dissolving into simple head hunting.

 

 

 

 

Well, let's just say that both Gregg Williams and Sean Peyton have both issued public apologies for their behavior in supervising and sanctioning these activities.

 

If this was a minor issue, neither one apologizes for much of anything.

 

This is a huge admission that this was exactly what is being claimed.

 

Outside of the Warner/favre hits I just haven't seen the type of questionable lets knock him out hits your talking about out of the saints. I mean, they happen occasionally but not really more than anyone else. I'd even argue that Jenkins is one of the cleanest big hitters in the league. There were some very physical games this year but the saints giants game was the only one that stuck out as going a bit that way with late and questionable hits going both ways with both teams trading personal fouls several times and fighting a third quarter.

 

In those 3 years the only people I recall getting carted off to the ambulance are Tracy porter and Courtney roby, both saints.

 

I think the word "kill shot" sounds worse than intended when out of context. I think this was more about intensity and momentum shifting plays than ending careers.

 

The only guy on the roster I can even remotely think of that might fall close to dirty is Harper. There's no doubt he tries to lay hits on people every chance he gets and some of them can be on the edge of late/high/away from the play etc.... My impression is that he's mostly trying to be the "heart and soul" of a physical defense and probably making up for his own shortcomings physically with some added fire/passion/intensity.

 

For those that are absolutely disgusted by this, I'd be curious if it's more the idea of it or if it's what you saw on the field from his defenses? Outside of the Warner/favre examples I don't really have incidents that come to mind and generally, those hits weren't awful- in fact most of us would love our defense putting those exact hits in Brady twice a year.

 

Clearly they should and will fine all the coaches, the team, strip a pick but I don't think this is quite what some are making it out to be.

Edited March 4, 2012 by NoSaint

[stevestojan]

The NFL, the league that will throw a gamechanging 15 yard flag for literally brushing your hand on a QBs helmet as a "blow to the head" needs to ban GW from the NFL for life. Is this the only team that has done this? Maybe, maybe not. The difference here is New Orleans got caught. Does the drunk driver who gets pulled over get a pass because "there's got to be thousands of drunks on the road tonight officer"? Nope. Lifetime ban is appropriate based on the NFLs position on player safety.

Edited March 4, 2012 by stevestojan

[DrDawkinstein]

"Less and less violent"?

 

Really!?!?

 

How so?

 

Perhaps for certain positions, like the QB position. Heck, there is even the pantied-pansy tier of pro football, where if your name is Brady you can whine your way to penalizing the other team.

 

How much money is the NFL spending on concussion research every year? New helmets designed to reduce concussions? Public awareness campaigns? Player awareness campaigns?

 

OK, so if you look at 60's football there are no more defenders using things like head slaps and straight arms to bring down offensive players; and things like stomping on tackled players and breaking fingers in the pile up are practically non-existent (sorry, Romo).

 

But where is the technique used for tackling? Where is the form? I would counter and say that defenders try to consistently go for the big hit so they can make a name for themselves. A name earns respect, and earns a big pay day if it is consistent. Similar to all of the stupid sack dances players do these days, it is almost like professional wrestling with their own unique sack dance.

 

Go back and look at the 90's games with Bruce Smith- especially in normal/ non-playoff type games. He had his sack dance, but it was mild compared to the showmanship that goes on today. Regardless of the stakes of the game.

 

Saying football has become less violent is just irresponsible and out-of-touch. Less violent than what? Bodyweights are larger and moving faster due to heavy HGH and steroid abuse that the forces involved in a "tackle" are more violent than ever. Simple physics. Larger mass moving at a faster speed then suddenly stopping....if measured in terms of force, does that sound less violent or more?

 

 

First off, this isnt what is being argued in this thread.

 

If you want my opinion on proper form tackling, and how dangerous this stupid trend of being a human-missile is, please take a few moments to see my previous posts here:

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2335915

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2336381

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2336793

 

You're preaching to the choir on that stuff, brother.

 

But back to the subject at hand. If the Saints were being coached to hit in such a manner, then where are the fines? Where are the penalties? Where is the rep of being a dirty, head-hunting team? Or even the rep of being a good, physical defense?

 

Im not trying to defend Williams specifically, as it most likely could have been a number of DCs that ended up in trouble for this. I just dont think the players were being coached to seriously injure. If that comes out, then shame on them, and they deserve what they get.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Can't link since I'm on my phone but Tim Graham has former Bills players saying it happened here as well. Now how do you all feel?

Again it depends on the exact nature of the bounty.

 

If it was "knock the snot out of the guy so that he's injured" that's one thing and much more acceptable to me than:

 

"Go for his knees and try to take out his ACL"

 

 

Then at some point (and I'm not saying this because I'm a Bills fan) you have to factor in that this happened in Buffalo nearly 10 years ago and as a result the statute of limitations comes into play, IMO.

 

In other words it becomes something closer to "water under the bridge" and much less of a current concern.