Now Greg Williams is a cheater?

[NoSaint]

For reference - the WSJ has gone back through the tape, and applied the "formula" for payment that has been given -

 

For a 54 game stretch as the saints coordinator 18 players were injured and Roman Harper would be the guy that hit the jackpot inflicting 4 of those at a total of $4,500. Of course that ignores any bump for playoffs, or whatever else may have been happening behind the scenes.

 

So once every 3 games a player was knocked out of the game by a defensive hit.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203370604577263580381162426.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird#articleTabs%3Darticle

 

of the 5 plays singled out, only one received a flag. the giants, and titans ones were in games that were already getting pretty chippy. id argue the hit on nicks had more to do with the 3 fights, brutal hit on graham that quarter, and the late hits each team traded. that game turned into a brawl in the 3rd, and i think had nothing to do with cash - brandon jacobs dancing in the saints face after scoring tipped off a nasty run.

Edited March 6, 2012 by NoSaint

[Buftex]

It is hard for me to fathom that Gregg Williams, or even Buddy Ryan before him, are the architects of this "pay for pain" system. I have little doubt this type of thing has been going on for decades. I think this is a case of Roger Goodell realizing that the violence of this sport is going to catch up to the NFL, financially, so he is trying to write the script, before somebody else does. This is Bud Seling/Steroids all over again. I am no fan of Gregg Williams, but I think he is going to be the fall guy for something that has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time.

[NoSaint]

It is hard for me to fathom that Gregg Williams, or even Buddy Ryan before him, are the architects of this "pay for pain" system. I have little doubt this type of thing has been going on for decades. I think this is a case of Roger Goodell realizing that the violence of this sport is going to catch up to the NFL, financially, so he is trying to write the script, before somebody else does. This is Bud Seling/Steroids all over again. I am no fan of Gregg Williams, but I think he is going to be the fall guy for something that has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time.

 

i agree with this, and frankly its the saints own fault that they will be the fall guys. they were arrogant with it all along - whether it be including coaches, including ornstein, the remember me hits interview - it was asking to become the example.

[bbb]

It is hard for me to fathom that Gregg Williams, or even Buddy Ryan before him, are the architects of this "pay for pain" system. I have little doubt this type of thing has been going on for decades. I think this is a case of Roger Goodell realizing that the violence of this sport is going to catch up to the NFL, financially, so he is trying to write the script, before somebody else does. This is Bud Seling/Steroids all over again. I am no fan of Gregg Williams, but I think he is going to be the fall guy for something that has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time.

 

Totally agree.

[NoSaint]

Well put.

 

My additional two cents is that too many people are focusing on the "hits" and whether or not anybody was injured as a result of this bounty system. It doesn't matter if anyone was injured or not. What matters is that injury was put on the table as an incentive in the first place in the form of "knockouts" and "cart-offs" and the fundamental disconnect this represents.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

i think the focus shifts because we all generally accept that it was there and it was bad - but if discussing the shades of gray (all being pretty dark at this point) whether or not people were laying illegal hits with intent to injure is frankly different than celebrating a big clean hit on a guy you put a target on. Myself, DD, SJBF and others arent dismissing this as something that doesnt matter because of a lack of injuries, but something that might need to be discussed in a different light than a situation where players fines were paid for illegal hits to knock someone out in life threatening ways on purpose. in that dynamic, the hits definitely matter.

 

the focus on the hits at this point for me helps to figure out the true intent of the program. were injuries a way to measure how big a hit was (wow, you knocked him out, huge hit), or were injuries the primary goal (do whatever you can to hurt that guy)--- when discussing the penalties to follow, for example, i think intent makes a big difference.

 

obviously we all agree paying a guy under the table to injure someone is morally wrong - we all agree on that, and makes for a pretty short discussion on what is a much larger issue.

[Captain Hindsight]

It is hard for me to fathom that Gregg Williams, or even Buddy Ryan before him, are the architects of this "pay for pain" system. I have little doubt this type of thing has been going on for decades. I think this is a case of Roger Goodell realizing that the violence of this sport is going to catch up to the NFL, financially, so he is trying to write the script, before somebody else does. This is Bud Seling/Steroids all over again. I am no fan of Gregg Williams, but I think he is going to be the fall guy for something that has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time.

This^

 

On a somewhat related note, will the Bills be punished at all? Since it is likely he used the system here too? It was so long ago and it doesnt make sense to me to punish an organization with very few people remaining from when it happened

[K-9]

i think the focus shifts because we all generally accept that it was there and it was bad - but if discussing the shades of gray (all being pretty dark at this point) whether or not people were laying illegal hits with intent to injure is frankly different than celebrating a big clean hit on a guy you put a target on. Myself, DD, SJBF and others arent dismissing this as something that doesnt matter because of a lack of injuries, but something that might need to be discussed in a different light than a situation where players fines were paid for illegal hits to knock someone out in life threatening ways on purpose. in that dynamic, the hits definitely matter.

 

the focus on the hits at this point for me helps to figure out the true intent of the program. were injuries a way to measure how big a hit was (wow, you knocked him out, huge hit), or were injuries the primary goal (do whatever you can to hurt that guy)--- when discussing the penalties to follow, for example, i think intent makes a big difference.

 

obviously we all agree paying a guy under the table to injure someone is morally wrong - we all agree on that, and makes for a pretty short discussion on what is a much larger issue.

 

The intent doesn't matter. The hits don't matter. Whether or not anyone was injured or penalized for hits doesn't matter. That's ALL after the fact.

 

Why were "knockouts" and "cart-offs" used as a barometer in the first place? Why was there a graduated scale of reward associated with that barometer? Why wasn't it good enough to simply reward for "sacks" or "tackles" or "blocks?"

 

This is an issue that transcends the game.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited March 6, 2012 by K-9

[NoSaint]

This^

 

On a somewhat related note, will the Bills be punished at all? Since it is likely he used the system here too? It was so long ago and it doesnt make sense to me to punish an organization with very few people remaining from when it happened

 

Well, according to players it was used. Extent of punishment would seemingly depend on who knew, if he contributed funds or just players etc.... I'd assume fines either way but how sizable would vary depending on factors. All under the umbrella of organizational control. I'd assume mostly duration and scope would effect greggs punishment though (with regards to things fans care about - draft picks, suspensions)

[K-9]

This^

 

On a somewhat related note, will the Bills be punished at all? Since it is likely he used the system here too? It was so long ago and it doesnt make sense to me to punish an organization with very few people remaining from when it happened

 

According to a report on NFLN that I saw this morning, the Titans, Bills, and Redskins will not come under league scrutiny and no form of punishment will be administered to those teams. It was reported that Goodell's focus is strictly on Williams and the Saints.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Captain Hindsight]

According to a report on NFLN that I saw this morning, the Titans, Bills, and Redskins will not come under league scrutiny and no form of punishment will be administered to those teams. It was reported that Goodell's focus is strictly on Williams and the Saints.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Ok, thanks. i havent heard much time to really read about this, so thanks for the info

[dave mcbride]

It is hard for me to fathom that Gregg Williams, or even Buddy Ryan before him, are the architects of this "pay for pain" system. I have little doubt this type of thing has been going on for decades. I think this is a case of Roger Goodell realizing that the violence of this sport is going to catch up to the NFL, financially, so he is trying to write the script, before somebody else does. This is Bud Seling/Steroids all over again. I am no fan of Gregg Williams, but I think he is going to be the fall guy for something that has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time.

I think that Williams deserves the worst, but you are right about the pre-Ryan era (although Ryan was certainly bad). I think it's time to bust out THEY CALL ME ASSASSIN for a little perspective here.

[truth on hold]

They never knocked him out even. If that was the end all goal - forget the fines penalties etc - knock him out, it would've been done. It was a swarming hit him whenever you can strategy. McCray got killed by SP on the sideline in front of all his teammates when he got the penalty. If that's the gold standard of a 10+ year program.... Then yea, I do to a degree question whether illegay knocking guys out was a goal. Or if McCray maybe got a bit carried away when told hit him hard every chance you get.

 

Every team has some bad hits, but to say it was institutionalized gy Gregg for 10+ years to injure players, whatever it takes - you'd expect both more injuries and more nasty hits than an average team.

 

If you told me someone drove drunk every day for a decade and I looked at a driving record that had a couple if average infractions, I would probably also be surprised and ask for more proof.

Favre said he thinks his ankle was broken on that play. Like I said earlier probably anyone else comes out. In another instance coach dungy concludes the same type of high-low hit from a Greg defense lea to manning's career threatening neck injury.

 

But you're right neither shows up as the "knock out" stat you're artificially basing everything on. Sounds like you need to see stretchers and body bags before you believe intent matters.

 

Funny though the man you keep defending obviously thought it mattered, or he wouldn't have (literally) bought into all those years.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack

[NoSaint]

and now im starting to hear the term cartoff referred to any and all game exits (had to be helped off the field) while the knockout was a did not return.

 

i dont vouch for how true but thats certainly different than on a stretcher and unconcious. still not good (i know, i know - youll tell me 12 times that intent and if the hits were clean or meant to destroy a life doesnt matter)

[K-9]

and now im starting to hear the term cartoff referred to any and all game exits (had to be helped off the field) while the knockout was a did not return.

 

i dont vouch for how true but thats certainly different than on a stretcher and unconcious. still not good (i know, i know - youll tell me 12 times that intent and if the hits were clean or meant to destroy a life doesnt matter)

 

If we try hard enough, we can rationalize this to the point that Greg Williams and the Saints are just innocent victims in all this.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited March 9, 2012 by K-9

[NoSaint]

If we try hard enough, we can rationalize this to the point that Greg Williams and the Saints are just innocent victims in all this.

 

GO BILLS!!!

clearly. ive advocated for huge fines, and draft picks stripped, but im trying to rationalize it so they are the victim.

 

couldnt be that as information has come out that it has become much more commonplace, and much less violent then portrayed a week ago - and the conversation is evolving. if we all agree it was wrong, why cant we discuss bad vs worse?

 

Yes, but Golic says they would get paid more for a hit that injures a guy. My question all along has been why have that kind of language associated with any part of the game at any time. And from the report on NFLN when the story broke last week, the Saints had a more refined grading scale; one amount for a "knockout" and another amount for a "cart off."

 

We are reading from separate books entirely. Let alone being on the same page.

 

GO BILLS!!!

this was the kind of post i was sharing the new details for. the scale was truly for "missed a play" and "didnt return" not "unconcious" or "on a stretcher" as the terms imply on a face level.

 

perhaps instead of rationalizing it, i was just trying to share information about what had possibly been misinterpreted earlier.

Edited March 9, 2012 by NoSaint

[DrDawkinstein]

clearly. ive advocated for huge fines, and draft picks stripped, but im trying to rationalize it so they are the victim.

 

couldnt be that as information has come out that it has become much more commonplace, and much less violent then portrayed a week ago - and the conversation is evolving. if we all agree it was wrong, why cant we discuss bad vs worse?

 

 

this was the kind of post i was sharing the new details for. the scale was truly for "missed a play" and "didnt return" not "unconcious" or "on a stretcher" as the terms imply on a face level.

 

perhaps instead of rationalizing it, i was just trying to share information about what had possibly been misinterpreted earlier.

 

There is no point in arguing it here. Most posters instantly made up their mind that this coach was advocating damaging other players for the rest of their lives and ruining their careers. They have no concept of the grey area that "big hits" dwell in. Even though almost every player to talk about this has said it was no big deal, the posters here are ready to judge and crucify. It doesnt help that the guy at the center of the story is a former Bills coach who isnt that well liked.

 

No matter how many players come out and refer to them simply as "remember me hits", the posters here (who obviously know way more about how the league works and what its like to play) will always jump to the worst possible conclusion.

 

No one is rationalizing what they have done. Im simply looking at the reaction of the "victims" before getting my panties in a wad over something we dont really know about.

[Adam]

"Money on the Board" will never stop.

 

 

 

in a funny twist:

 

Goodell is yet to hand out discipline for the Saints, who could face fines, suspensions and forfeiture of draft choices, "in light of the competitive nature of the violation," according to the league's statement. The Patriots own New Orleans' first-round pick in the upcoming draft.

I think he will complete his investigation before handing out any penalties.

[bbb]

They should take the Pats pick away then. Call it further punishment for Spygate!