Now Greg Williams is a cheater?

[NoSaint]

Yes, but Golic says they would get paid more for a hit that injures a guy. My question all along has been why have that kind of language associated with any part of the game at any time. And from the report on NFLN when the story broke last week, the Saints had a more refined grading scale; one amount for a "knockout" and another amount for a "cart off."

 

We are reading from separate books entirely. Let alone being on the same page.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

And I agree that this went above and beyond anything that was acceptable. especially with the coaches getting involved, and quite frankly if there was 50k pages worth of documentation im sure theres more than just a few things that will add up to the severity of the punishment doled out here.

 

i just think that it was more about big hits than illegal hits, which is a HUGE line to me - the biggest in a situation like this. Being coach administered was a really big line, outside dollars is a big deal, not stopping when told is a very big deal.... if it was about illegal hits i will be the first to say ban all of them. as it stands, with no evidence of illegal hits, i am ok with tremendous fines, and stripping a pick. i think given the scope of it around the league, getting into suspending players at this point, for legal hits would be too far.

 

that is really that far out there to you?

[K-9]

Remember when the Jets DB's were accused of having a bet on who could knock Don Beebe out of a game? The next day at work the whole lunch room was talking (about 50 people), I I casually said that I wasn't the least bit surprised and that they are ALWAYS trying to knock guys out of a game. THE WHOLE LUNCH ROOM FREAKED OUT ON ME!They shouted me down and, as a temp worker, ostracized me. I never said I thought it was right, but I just wondered what it was people thought these guys are trying to do out there. I don't think anyone is trying to PERMANENTLY, or SERIOUSLY injure people(even with the bounties), but they sure as hell are trying to hit the guy hard enough that he can't finish the game.

 

What is it you think these guys are trying to do when they run full speed at a guy, and drive him into the ground? I think you have your head in the sand.

 

Head in the sand? Bullsh*t. There is nothing wrong with a player that hits as hard as he can. There is nothing wrong if that hit results in an injury. It's part of the game and everyone accepts that at par. This isn't about hitting in football, anyway.

 

What's WRONG is having a coach create a pay scale that seeks to reward players for "knockouts" and "cart-offs." Whats' WRONG is having a player like Golic say that while the intention is always a clean, hard hit on the guy, they got paid MORE if that hit DID injure the opponent.

 

What's wrong is that sportsmanship gets thrown away and the integrity of the game comes into question.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[papazoid]

Goodell: "Gregg, did you pay the tough to get going?"

 

Williams: "Yeah, and when the going got tough, two birds crapped in my hand"

 

Goodell: "well, i'm about to crap all over your head"

[K-9]

And I agree that this went above and beyond anything that was acceptable. especially with the coaches getting involved, and quite frankly if there was 50k pages worth of documentation im sure theres more than just a few things that will add up to the severity of the punishment doled out here.

 

i just think that it was more about big hits than illegal hits, which is a HUGE line to me - the biggest in a situation like this. Being coach administered was a really big line, outside dollars is a big deal, not stopping when told is a very big deal.... if it was about illegal hits i will be the first to say ban all of them. as it stands, with no evidence of illegal hits, i am ok with tremendous fines, and stripping a pick. i think given the scope of it around the league, getting into suspending players at this point, for legal hits would be too far.

 

that is really that far out there to you?

 

It's not about hitting at all. Is THAT really that far out there to YOU?

 

Like I said earlier, we are reading from two completely different books.

GO BILLS!!!

Edited March 5, 2012 by K-9

[BringBackFergy]

On Mike and Mike, Adam Shefter said it is possible the Bills, Redskins and Titans could also be penalized in some way (although it is unlikely given the time that has elapsed and the fact that they were never targeted by the investigation from the outset).

 

Can't see us losing picks and most of the coaches during the G. Williams era have moved on. I think these media guys love to stir up trouble and thinking the Bills may be penalized for this behavior retroactively is a stretch.

[Erik]

On Mike and Mike, Adam Shefter said it is possible the Bills, Redskins and Titans could also be penalized in some way (although it is unlikely given the time that has elapsed and the fact that they were never targeted by the investigation from the outset).

 

Can't see us losing picks and most of the coaches during the G. Williams era have moved on. I think these media guys love to stir up trouble and thinking the Bills may be penalized for this behavior retroactively is a stretch.

 

Would likely be a fine if anything.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

Any penalty imposed on Buff will be very minor. I doubt they see one at all.

[BringBackFergy]

Would likely be a fine if anything.

[/quote

 

Let Dick Jauron pay the fine...Ralph told DJ about the "Bounty" System and DJ drafted Maybin - "the quicker picker upper"

[dave mcbride]

It's quite interesting to me that the most forceful defenses of Williams rely on the dog-eat-dog logic of the American prison system:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/charles-barkley-rips-punk-and-snitch-who-ratted-on-gregg-williams/

 

Ryan Clark for the Steelers said essentially the same, blaming "snitches." I think we all know what happens to "snitches" in prison, and what the word "punk" means. Simply disgusting stuff. As for Barkley, not a role model indeed.

[NoSaint]

i think in its simplest terms, watching this play out, it seems the "death penalty" type scenarios circle around ornstein and not the dollars or hits. those were big, but i think big fines. if this goes bigger than spygate in the nfl offices, there must be more... as ive said others shouldnt jump to conclusions, i shouldnt outline this theory - but....

 

i dont think the nfl really cares about the bounty near as much as the rumored punishments would indicate, but i think they care immensely about freezing ornstein out of the league. i think the reason you saw the investigation never really follow to washington and buffalo before this weekend was because it was less about Gregg, or injuries and more about ornstein and felonies and fraud - and anger at the saints for arrogance with this, the pill issue, the issues with the media, and keeping ornstein around despite his history.

 

i think goodell and the rest were hoping to bury the saints for keeping him around (and justifiably so) but didnt want to expose his connections at the forefront of this - i also dont think they expected so many players to openly acknowledge it around the league making it easier to put to rest as huge punishments for a rare bounty system. it just seems the info on the bounties is too readily available for that to be the centerpiece to this all - and the nfl to have missed it so clearly.

 

 

 

some info on ornstein, for those unfamiliar - you know the guy that paid reggie at usc, after defrauding the nfl as an employee, and with multiple major issues hanging around him regarding nfl fraud. with the 50k pages in documents i think this potentially turns really ugly and away from the hits as things move forward.

 

http://deadspin.com/5890499/

Edited March 5, 2012 by NoSaint

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Here is a good one ....

 

 

Lions Ndamukong Suh On Saints "Bounty" Program: ‘We Wouldn’t Allow That'

 

 

 

Let me paraphrase a boy named Suh - "We Wouldn't Allow That" because we just LOVE to stomp on people for the fun of it.

Edited March 5, 2012 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[shrader]

Sorry if something along these lines has been mentioned already (long thread). I was reading some comments from Patriots fans that were hilarious. They try to make this out as being worse than filming the opposing team's practice. It's amazing the lengths people will go to not have their little bubble burst. Apparently wanting to hit someone just a bit harder gives you a bigger competitive edge than having potential advanced knowledge of the opposing team's game plan.

[I hate the Bills !]

I remember a play when the Bills were playing the Jets and Bruce beat the Left tackle so bad he was in the backfield and crushed Boomer so hard , I thought Boomer was dead, he was motionless on the ground. It was a clean hard hit by Bruce.

 

I also remember the NFC Championship when they interviewed Favre he looked like an beat up old man in the presser. NFl fans pay huge money to watch games. We loved it when Guys like Bruce, Reggie and LT Crushed Qb's thats their job, and the guys today like Harrison, Suh it still their job as long as they hit them in the NFL designated hit zone.

 

Hard tough football is a rite of passage.

 

The would bounty refers to the days of the old west. Unless the bounty is paid to sume scrub backup guys making $ 250,000 a year its nothing more than chump change to the guys playing now !

Edited March 5, 2012 by I hate the Bills !

[I hate the Bills !]

Bills players didn't get money they got "free wings" at the Big Tree for knocking out a player. According to the owner, no free wings were ever given away due to knockouts

Edited March 5, 2012 by I hate the Bills !

[BuffaloBillsSD]

Here is the complete statement from the league via PFT My link

[bbb]

Somebody asked me earlier in this thread why I thought this was a horrible time for this to come out. This is why:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7647468/the-new-orleans-saints-nfl-concussions

 

 

Everybody in the league knows that the NFL is trying to make the game at least nominally safer. Everybody in the league knows why it's trying to do that. They've read the studies. They know what the data indicates. How does a team establish a bounty program in the face of what it knows the league is trying to do? What kind of thinking drives a team to do it in the face of all the grisly data that keeps piling up? The people in New Orleans were aware of the consequences of the everyday violence of the sport. They didn't need to create performance bonuses for extraneous brutality. For the Saints to put in that program at this particular moment in time is evidence of a moral chaos in the game's essential culture that may very well be unredeemable. It is to make everyone complicit in unprincipled barbarism in the guise of professional sport.

[truth on hold]

And I agree that this went above and beyond anything that was acceptable. especially with the coaches getting involved, and quite frankly if there was 50k pages worth of documentation im sure theres more than just a few things that will add up to the severity of the punishment doled out here.

 

i just think that it was more about big hits than illegal hits, which is a HUGE line to me - the biggest in a situation like this. Being coach administered was a really big line, outside dollars is a big deal, not stopping when told is a very big deal.... if it was about illegal hits i will be the first to say ban all of them. as it stands, with no evidence of illegal hits, i am ok with tremendous fines, and stripping a pick. i think given the scope of it around the league, getting into suspending players at this point, for legal hits would be too far.

 

that is really that far out there to you?

You keep saying "no evidence of illegal hits" when I pointed out the league acknowledged they blew it on non-calls after saints defense brutalized favre in the NFC championship game. Illegal hits and an injured opponent. Again what more do you want? Should we not enforce DUI in your town until multiple vehicular homicides are committed by drunks?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

If I understand this MANY of the hits to "take people out" were legal hits. So you have to ask ... Is it cheating or just playing dirty?

 

 

And no I'm not a Greggggg fan

 

As to Favre.... He wasn't bothered by it and if I recall correctly ..... he laid down once to give a guy a sack.

[K-9]

Somebody asked me earlier in this thread why I thought this was a horrible time for this to come out. This is why:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7647468/the-new-orleans-saints-nfl-concussions

 

 

Everybody in the league knows that the NFL is trying to make the game at least nominally safer. Everybody in the league knows why it's trying to do that. They've read the studies. They know what the data indicates. How does a team establish a bounty program in the face of what it knows the league is trying to do? What kind of thinking drives a team to do it in the face of all the grisly data that keeps piling up? The people in New Orleans were aware of the consequences of the everyday violence of the sport. They didn't need to create performance bonuses for extraneous brutality. For the Saints to put in that program at this particular moment in time is evidence of a moral chaos in the game's essential culture that may very well be unredeemable. It is to make everyone complicit in unprincipled barbarism in the guise of professional sport.

 

Well put.

 

My additional two cents is that too many people are focusing on the "hits" and whether or not anybody was injured as a result of this bounty system. It doesn't matter if anyone was injured or not. What matters is that injury was put on the table as an incentive in the first place in the form of "knockouts" and "cart-offs" and the fundamental disconnect this represents.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[NoSaint]

You keep saying "no evidence of illegal hits" when I pointed out the league acknowledged they blew it on non-calls after saints defense brutalized favre in the NFC championship game. Illegal hits and an injured opponent. Again what more do you want? Should we not enforce DUI in your town until multiple vehicular homicides are committed by drunks?

 

They never knocked him out even. If that was the end all goal - forget the fines penalties etc - knock him out, it would've been done. It was a swarming hit him whenever you can strategy. McCray got killed by SP on the sideline in front of all his teammates when he got the penalty. If that's the gold standard of a 10+ year program.... Then yea, I do to a degree question whether illegay knocking guys out was a goal. Or if McCray maybe got a bit carried away when told hit him hard every chance you get.

 

Every team has some bad hits, but to say it was institutionalized gy Gregg for 10+ years to injure players, whatever it takes - you'd expect both more injuries and more nasty hits than an average team.

 

If you told me someone drove drunk every day for a decade and I looked at a driving record that had a couple if average infractions, I would probably also be surprised and ask for more proof.

Edited March 6, 2012 by NoSaint