Now Greg Williams is a cheater?

[jumbalaya]

If he did it in buff should there be consequence here too?

After reading more on this, Williams put a big emphasis on injuring other players wherever he coached. A lifetime ban from coaching in the NFL is not unreasonable. The man is clearly the dick we all thought he was when he was head coach. Get him out of the league, keep him out of the league. Send a strong message please. It is time to stop this nonsense once and for all. Gregwilliams = Dickhead

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I don't think anyone is trying to PERMANENTLY, or SERIOUSLY injure people(even with the bounties), but they sure as hell are trying to hit the guy hard enough that he can't finish the game.

 

What is it you think these guys are trying to do when they run full speed at a guy, and drive him into the ground? I think you have your head in the sand.

I couldn't care less what you personally would like to believe happened.

 

You're repeating points that have already been made in this topic.

 

You don't know if dirty play was encouraged. That's at the crux of this issue and you have no idea what happened.

 

Again, spare us what you think happened.

 

Also, why are the people who disagree with you the ones hiding "their heads in the sand?"

 

Maybe you're the one who's hiding his head in the sand.

Edited March 4, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[n3wyork13]

saints need to be slammed and lose a draft pick for each year that it was going on and knew it was going. Payton knew it was going on and did nothing to stop it, unlike the news that is coming out know pertaining to buffalo and Washington where as.far as we know (so far) no one in the front office was aware of it. Saints need to be made an example of and Greg Williams needs to be suspended for atleast a year. He also needs to be fined for every game in which he coached when the program was going on in N.O.

[Geno Smith's Arm]

I couldn't care less what you personally would like to believe happened.

 

You're repeating points that have already been made in this topic.

 

You don't know if dirty play was encouraged. That's at the crux of this issue and you have no idea what happened.

 

Again, spare us what you think happened.

 

Also, why are the people who disagree with you the ones hiding "their heads in the sand?"

 

Maybe you're the one who's hiding his head in the sand.

 

You aren't being realistic about what is happening on the field.

 

"Spare us what you think happened" This is a forum, telling me not to express my opinion is ridiculous. And if you don't care what I think, why are you addressing me specifically?

 

I think dirty play was most definitely encouraged, and I think it happens in all kinds of sports, from auto racing to hockey, from baseball to football.

 

And what aspect of this issue do you think I'm not facing (with my head in the sand)? Poor sportsmanship?! Corruption in pro sports?! Desperate actions by guys juiced up on growth hormones?! Inhumanity in the sporting world, where coaches dehydrate their own players to death?! Get real.

 

I definitely believe there should be penalties dealt out, but I don't believe it will stop guys from trying to tear players heads off.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Matthews' Bag

[1billsfan]

Gregg's crap throwing fan has hit our team now...

 

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/04/report-bills-had-bounty-system-under-gregg-williams/

[truth on hold]

Dungy asserts it was a Gregg Williams money hit on manning that started his neck problems. Yikes.

[Bruce]

That's an opinion. You could just as easily argue that they immediately apologized and owned up to it because they know it doesnt have a lot of steam. If this is as dirty as you guys want it to be, then there will be lawyers involved, and no one would be admitting to anything.

 

The fact that they came right out and said "Yep, it was stupid and we're sorry", could be because it was the same type of bounty system almost every team uses, and it really doesn't effect the game much.

 

Again, we dont have enough info either way, and you are guessing just like me. Im just waiting to find out the facts before I get all worked up.

 

 

Well, I'll concede that. Public relations campaigns have people apologizing for all kinds of things that they shouldn't to save face and wash it away, rather than say nothing and allow charges to fester and grow, unaddressed.

 

I'm not the type naive enough to believe that a simple "I'm sorry" absolves all wrongs nor intent, but in the court of public opinion the issue does seem to settle when the accused comes forth and apologizes.

 

Outside of the Warner/favre hits I just haven't seen the type of questionable lets knock him out hits your talking about out of the saints. I mean, they happen occasionally but not really more than anyone else. I'd even argue that Jenkins is one of the cleanest big hitters in the league. There were some very physical games this year but the saints giants game was the only one that stuck out as going a bit that way with late and questionable hits going both ways with both teams trading personal fouls several times and fighting a third quarter.

 

In those 3 years the only people I recall getting carted off to the ambulance are Tracy porter and Courtney roby, both saints.

 

I think the word "kill shot" sounds worse than intended when out of context. I think this was more about intensity and momentum shifting plays than ending careers.

 

The only guy on the roster I can even remotely think of that might fall close to dirty is Harper. There's no doubt he tries to lay hits on people every chance he gets and some of them can be on the edge of late/high/away from the play etc.... My impression is that he's mostly trying to be the "heart and soul" of a physical defense and probably making up for his own shortcomings physically with some added fire/passion/intensity.

 

For those that are absolutely disgusted by this, I'd be curious if it's more the idea of it or if it's what you saw on the field from his defenses? Outside of the Warner/favre examples I don't really have incidents that come to mind and generally, those hits weren't awful- in fact most of us would love our defense putting those exact hits in Brady twice a year.

 

Clearly they should and will fine all the coaches, the team, strip a pick but I don't think this is quite what some are making it out to be.

 

Well, I think it would be a mistake to say that if a player or team does not have a reputation for being dirty, then that means that they absolved from being motivated by a cash pot of thousands of dollars for taking out an opposing player.

 

I honestly did not get any impression of the Saints being dirty- besides, like you said, with the Favre hits. I was walking in to the gym when I heard Damien Woody on ESPN commenting on this and its implications. I had heard of nothing other than Favre and Warners comments after their respective games.

 

And IMO, the NFL is babying QB's way too much. I understand the QB being the flagship position of every team. The marquee position. They are not easy to find, and certainly not easy to develop. It's the games key position. So I can understand- to a point- the NFL wanting to protect QB's. The current rules, IMO, are being slanted to basically giving the QB a red shirt like in practice with specific rules that they are not to be touched at all.

 

What I really think is sinister, if it to be true, is coaches- who are supposed to be respected, experienced, experts on their field but also on gamesmanship- are officially attempting to steer behavior with the intent of being rewarded for injuring an opposing player.

 

First off, this isnt what is being argued in this thread.

 

If you want my opinion on proper form tackling, and how dangerous this stupid trend of being a human-missile is, please take a few moments to see my previous posts here:

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2335915

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2336381

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2336793

 

You're preaching to the choir on that stuff, brother.

 

But back to the subject at hand. If the Saints were being coached to hit in such a manner, then where are the fines? Where are the penalties? Where is the rep of being a dirty, head-hunting team? Or even the rep of being a good, physical defense?

 

Im not trying to defend Williams specifically, as it most likely could have been a number of DCs that ended up in trouble for this. I just dont think the players were being coached to seriously injure. If that comes out, then shame on them, and they deserve what they get.

 

On a side note, check out this link:

 

http://profootballta...gregg-williams/

 

Two important quotes:

 

1.) "Tim Graham of the Buffalo News reports that multiple former Bills players allege that Williams maintained such a system during his three seasons as the teams head coach, from 2001 through 2003. Former safety Coy Wire told Graham that “[t]here was financial compensation” for inflicting injury. Two other former players speaking on the condition of anonymity said the same thing.

 

“That’s real,” Wire said. “That happened in Buffalo. There were rewards. There never was a point where cash was handed out in front of the team. But surely, you were going to be rewarded. When somebody made a big hit that hurt an opponent, it was commended and encouraged.”

 

and

 

2.) the oil slick that started just north of the Gulf of Mexico will spread to Washington and to Buffalo. With hundreds of former players now suing the league for the consequences of a career’s worth of concussions, don’t be surprised if more allegations of bounty programs emerges, with the league eventually having to turn over stones in most if not all NFL cities.

 

Similar to the BALCO and steroid scandals with the "home-run derby" of baseball, this could have just revealed the tip of the iceberg.

 

Bullsh*t! The object of the game is to tackle, not achieve a "cart off" or "knockout." Was Williams just being "cute" with the language? Why not just offer incentives for sacks and tackles, etc.? Oh, they're already included in their contracts as performance clauses. So why the explicit language then?

 

There's also a thing called simple sportsmanship which seems to be lost on many nowadays. If my kid were being coached like this I'd rip his coach a new one.

 

Also, I think any team that does this is just comprised of a team full of p*ssies. If Greg William and the New Orleans Saints are afraid of beating a team with their best players, then I don't need to say any more about what a chickensh*t practice the "bounty" system is.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

That's an incredible point.

 

That's what I think is being missed here. If true, this is not just head-hunting.

 

I think Charles Barkley is an idiot. Professional athletes, in today's society ARE role models. Now, it can be debated whether any culture wants professional athletes to be role models- and I think that is a valid argument- but they the simple reality is that they are. Whether they like it or not.

 

High school players watch the NFL and college ball. How many current NFL players talk about their heroes of the gridiron growing up? Players that they wanted to emulate?

 

There seems to be a disconnect with fans when it comes to the behavior of professionals and their impact on those who watch that behavior and will follow in their footsteps.

 

If a high school coach were putting this kind of trash out there, he would be gone and face possible criminal charges.

[Bufcomments]

It is clear now that Williams promoted this "bounty" everywhere he coached.If this turns out to be true I think the best way to handle this is to ban Williams from the league. Make him the fall guy.

 

Going forward the league just should tell all the 32 teams this will not be allowed anymore and there will be heavy fines or loss of draft picks if teams are caught doing this from now on.

 

Sad to say this will blow over in a week or two.

[RealityCheck]

I am curious how many personal fouls were called on his defenses during his time as DC versus the league average and also compare the fines on his players during the same time span.

[NoSaint]

I am curious how many personal fouls were called on his defenses during his time as DC versus the league average and also compare the fines on his players during the same time span.

 

I want to say over his 3 years in new Orleans the saint were tied for 8th in personal foul penalties. Above average but not right at the top.

 

saints need to be slammed and lose a draft pick for each year that it was going on and knew it was going. Payton knew it was going on and did nothing to stop it, unlike the news that is coming out know pertaining to buffalo and Washington where as.far as we know (so far) no one in the front office was aware of it. Saints need to be made an example of and Greg Williams needs to be suspended for atleast a year. He also needs to be fined for every game in which he coached when the program was going on in N.O.

 

So payton being aware is significant but our headcoach being the one who ran it is not?

Edited March 4, 2012 by NoSaint

[NoSaint]

I couldn't care less what you personally would like to believe happened.

 

You're repeating points that have already been made in this topic.

 

You don't know if dirty play was encouraged. That's at the crux of this issue and you have no idea what happened.

 

Again, spare us what you think happened.

 

Also, why are the people who disagree with you the ones hiding "their heads in the sand?"

 

Maybe you're the one who's hiding his head in the sand.

 

 

It's definitely true that what kind of play was incentivized makes a big difference.

 

"hit him, hit him hard and hit him again - hit him til he's sent to the locker room" and "go spear his head, I'll pay your fine" are waaaaay different in how your coaching but either could be what happened here.

 

I obviously never want to see guys SERIOUSLY hurt but I do want my defense trying to make impact hits that rattle the other team. If he was serious in his discussion about "remember me shots" then I get where he's coming from. Let's face it, we all want to put shots on Brady - it's how you win. You rattle him, and whether or not he stays in the game - you try and make him hurt.

 

It's a fine line when trying to foster that take no prisoners attitude. I agree this crossed the line but I don't think it's to the point that many are arguing based on what we know so far.

[Roger Goodell]

Oh, well - there goes our pick at #10:

 

Tim Graham ‏ @ByTimGraham

Retweet

Posted soon at BuffaloNews.com, former Bills players say Gregg Williams promoted rewards for big plays and injuring opponents.

 

Our preliminary investigation found that no Bills ever actually earned a bounty so you don't need to worry.

[Dorkington]

If he did the same here, we should be punished as well. It's the only fair way to deal with it. Sucks, but the FO shouldn't have allowed such activities on our team.

[UConn James]

If the Bills face sanctions after an appropriate investigation, then so be it.

 

A couple of things to note:

 

What was described in the Graham article, if it was an accurate depiction of what went on, doesn't have the hallmark of an institutional system. N.O.'s problem is that the coach, FO and subsequently even the owner were aware of the goings-on. And even when it was ordered by the owner to end, it didn't.

 

In a sense, the NFL caught the Saints red-handed. Very different from saying "Oh, 10 years ago, GW..." Because how far back are they going to take this issue? If they dug around, they would shortly find damning evidence from every team. Just like the steroid scandal, this is a bag of stevestojan Goodell doesn't want to open up very wide. There's vague public knowledge that many players in the 60s, 70s and 80s used, it's not something the league wants to investigate very thoroughly and uses those eras as a vague justification of why testing for substances and heavy penalties is needed so badly.

 

There's a history of the NFL sweeping nasty things under the rug, and indeed, destroying evidence. And even with any legal liability, I wouldn't expect the gov't to get involved in something that could damage such a tax cash cow as the NFL. GW will take the fall and the league will be like, "OK, from now on, let there be NO mistake..."

[Dorkington]

If the Bills face sanctions after an appropriate investigation, then so be it.

 

A couple of things to note:

 

What was described in the Graham article, if it was an accurate depiction of what went on, doesn't have the hallmark of an institutional system. N.O.'s problem is that the coach, FO and subsequently even the owner were aware of the goings-on. And even when it was ordered by the owner to end, it didn't.

 

In a sense, the NFL caught the Saints red-handed. Very different from saying "Oh, 10 years ago, GW..." Because how far back are they going to take this issue? If they dug around, they would shortly find damning evidence from every team. Just like the steroid scandal, this is a bag of stevestojan Goodell doesn't want to open up very wide. There's vague public knowledge that many players in the 60s, 70s and 80s used, it's not something the league wants to investigate very thoroughly and uses those eras as a vague justification of why testing for substances and heavy penalties is needed so badly.

 

There's a history of the NFL sweeping nasty things under the rug, and indeed, destroying evidence. And even with any legal liability, I wouldn't expect the gov't to get involved in something that could damage such a tax cash cow as the NFL. GW will take the fall and the league will be like, "OK, from now on, let there be NO mistake..."

 

What do you suggest the statute of limitations is for this?

[NoSaint]

What do you suggest the statute of limitations is for this?

 

I've also seen some people say that the organization didn't know here - who would have to know? TD? Russ Brandon? Ralph? I'm curious where each of these lines fall.

 

Reading coy wires comments, it seems like it was no secret with the bills either. Even though Russ has claimed to not know, I find it odd that coy described it as an organizational culture at that point in time. Maybe the details weren't clear but with coys description - if true- it seems hard to believe no one outside players and coaches had any idea.

[Beerball]

This is probably already posted in this thread, but I'm too lazy to look through every post.

 

Merriman, a three-time Pro Bowler, claims he was intentionally injured in 2007 while with the San Diego Chargers. in retaliation for hitting Tennessee quarterback Vince Young after a handoff. Merriman hasnt been the same dominating player since the knee injury.

 

“Why is this a big deal now? Bounties been going on forever,” Merriman tweeted.

 

link

[NoSaint]

This is probably already posted in this thread, but I'm too lazy to look through every post.

 

 

 

link

 

 

It's in here somewhere- what it does bring up is a question of if buffalo is still doing it. It sounds like San Diego was.

[stevestojan]

Dungy asserts it was a Gregg Williams money hit on manning that started his neck problems. Yikes.

Joe, you have a link to this?

[NoSaint]

Joe, you have a link to this?

 

It's in this thread too- essentially manning hit in Washington on a high/low, gets up looking at arm and moving it like there's numbness