The age of the shutdown cornerback is over

[BADOLBILZ]

We all know that the league is becoming more pass oriented.

 

Some people(incorrectly) see that as a need for a stud cornerback.

 

My question is, how many good CB's does it take to cover 5 receivers for 5 seconds?

 

Probably 10.

 

The NFL has gotten a taste of the new, less punishing game of football.

 

The new game is more marketable and less expensive.

 

I'm just saying.....smashmouth defensive football is MORE THAN not likely to be making a comeback.

 

It just ain't happening. At all.

 

5 receiver pass plays used to be a rather unsustainable approach to offense due in great part to the threat of harm to the QB.

 

The old shutdown CB, who was a rare breed even then, used to take out a good 1/3 of the opponents 3 receiver passing game.

 

And what's more, he probably took out the one guy who could consistently get open.

 

But now, all 5 receivers can get open. All areas of the field are open for business from sideline to sideline. QB's can take 5-7 step drops liberally which allows for longer routes which means more time to get open. Give receivers time, they get open.

 

At best, all a shutdown cb can do is take out one guy out of 5, and that one guy is no longer unique is his ability to get open.

 

The answer in pass defense is get quality pass rushers and quantity cornerbacks.

[Captain Hindsight]

I dont disagree with your final premise but if you have a guy you know you can leave on an island and use other methods to cover the other guys then that is an asset but your right, a quality pass rush might be more useful nowadays

[BADOLBILZ]

I dont disagree with your final premise but if you have a guy you know you can leave on an island and use other methods to cover the other guys then that is an asset but your right, a quality pass rush might be more useful nowadays

 

10 on 10 is not a win for the defense. It used to be, when that 11th guy was the one guy who could get open before the QB got his skeleton re-arranged.

 

Now, the decapitation has been replaced with the wrap-up tackle, in both the secondary and the backfeld. The only offensive player who still takes a beating is the running back.

[Dragonborn10]

Agree for the most part but NFL defenses are more complicated than you are making them out to be. Rarely if ever is the entire secondary in zone or man to man. Having a true # 1 CB allows you to mix zone and man coverage in the same play and it may not be just that #1 CB that plays man to man. NFL defense as you correctly stated is about getting pressure on the QB. But you still need to stop the run from time to time and even more important you need to confuse the QB/WR's. At least enough to slow them down. There are so many adjustments made before the snap and during the play, even a moments hesitation can cause a pass break up or a turnover. Having a true #1 CB allows you to disguise your defense even more than if you have 5 equally competent corners(of which no one does).

[artmalibu]

I dont agree!! When you send 5 out for a pass the defense can sent 6 at the QB and the offense only has 5 to block. So, 1 pass rusher will be unblocked and none of the other pass rushers cant be doubled up on. so, in the end the CBs wont have to hold coverage for long. Teams that cant run the ball will still have a problem winning.

 

The 5 wides are nothing new anyway.

[BADOLBILZ]

Agree for the most part but NFL defenses are more complicated than you are making them out to be. Rarely if ever is the entire secondary in zone or man to man. Having a true # 1 CB allows you to mix zone and man coverage in the same play and it may not be just that #1 CB that plays man to man. NFL defense as you correctly stated is about getting pressure on the QB. But you still need to stop the run from time to time and even more important you need to confuse the QB/WR's. At least enough to slow them down. There are so many adjustments made before the snap and during the play, even a moments hesitation can cause a pass break up or a turnover. Having a true #1 CB allows you to disguise your defense even more than if you have 5 equally competent corners(of which no one does).

 

I think you are thinking about 5 year ago NFL football. Yes, the zone blitz ushered in an era of creative pass defense in the 1990's. It was created to counter teams that played offense THEN (Bills/Niners) like teams do now, but much of the impact of that has been legislated out of the game.

 

Look for teams......like the Bills and keep it simple Dave Wannstedt.......to go back to more conservative defensive tactics to speed up defenders and try to play their best defense in the red zone when the limited space negates some of the offenses heavy advantage. The closer you get to the goal line, the greater the impact of penetration at the LOS.

 

I don't expect to see crazy pin-ball scoring numbers, but the pass yardage will continue to be astronomical.

 

I think this past Super Bowl is what will be passing for a defensive struggle from here on out.

 

I dont agree!! When you send 5 out for a pass the defense can sent 6 at the QB and the offense only has 5 to block. So, 1 pass rusher will be unblocked and none of the other pass rushers cant be doubled up on. so, in the end the CBs wont have to hold coverage for long. Teams that cant run the ball will still have a problem winning.

 

The 5 wides are nothing new anyway.

 

Yeah, that was kind of the deterrent years ago. Now, the QB takes the quick dump off and the unblocked blitzer pulls up quickly to avoid a penalty and more importantly.......a fine that comes out of HIS paycheck.

 

Players are money motivated. Why would they risk a fine if it meant losing money? Well, the NFL is in the process of closing up any potential loopholes.....ANY..... to their strategy. Google "Gregg".

[1billsfan]

We all know that the league is becoming more pass oriented.

 

Some people(incorrectly) see that as a need for a stud cornerback.

 

My question is, how many good CB's does it take to cover 5 receivers for 5 seconds?

 

Probably 10.

 

The NFL has gotten a taste of the new, less punishing game of football.

 

The new game is more marketable and less expensive.

 

I'm just saying.....smashmouth defensive football is MORE THAN not likely to be making a comeback.

 

It just ain't happening. At all.

 

5 receiver pass plays used to be a rather unsustainable approach to offense due in great part to the threat of harm to the QB.

 

The old shutdown CB, who was a rare breed even then, used to take out a good 1/3 of the opponents 3 receiver passing game.

 

And what's more, he probably took out the one guy who could consistently get open.

 

But now, all 5 receivers can get open. All areas of the field are open for business from sideline to sideline. QB's can take 5-7 step drops liberally which allows for longer routes which means more time to get open. Give receivers time, they get open.

 

At best, all a shutdown cb can do is take out one guy out of 5, and that one guy is no longer unique is his ability to get open.

 

The answer in pass defense is get quality pass rushers and quantity cornerbacks.

 

 

The age of DEFENSE is over. Except for the few rare exceptions, NFL defenses were rolled in 2011.

 

It's the very reason why I think the Bills would be Superbowl contenders THIS season if they traded up to get RGIII.

 

Take a peek at the RGIII thread, the asking price may be reasonable since the Browns and Redskins are starting to play hardball with the Rams.

[sllib olaffub]

Hey - nice post!

 

I love your reasoning, although I think it is a bit of a generalization, and I think it's tough to see any one team designed in a way that would make it a good match against all types of opponents, overall, if I were a GM I'd build a defense keeping what you said in mind. Here is how I'd do it:

 

I'd have two very large and agile DT's in the middle (Williams wall in Minny, the Bills D of ten years ago, the Ravens superbowl team). I think that having two guys in the middle that can more or less eliminate inside running, and also collapse the pocket from the interior, automatically makes the rest easier. That is where I'd start.

 

I'd make the rest of the front seven as fast and able to get to the QB and sideline to sideline as possible - looking for the big guys who are special and who can run as well. You shut down the inside run, you cover the outside runs and have the speed to cover tight ends and get to the QB, and the corners - as was eluded to - should be able to do the rest.

 

I would love it if the Bills got themselves two elite pass rushers - coupled with Dareus and Williams, that would be a Offensive Coordinators nightmare!

[aussiebills]

u can win with above average cornerbacks as long as u have a pass rush, or u will need two shut down corners

[Bill from NYC]

We all know that the league is becoming more pass oriented.

 

Some people(incorrectly) see that as a need for a stud cornerback.

 

My question is, how many good CB's does it take to cover 5 receivers for 5 seconds?

 

Probably 10.

 

The NFL has gotten a taste of the new, less punishing game of football.

 

The new game is more marketable and less expensive.

 

I'm just saying.....smashmouth defensive football is MORE THAN not likely to be making a comeback.

 

It just ain't happening. At all.

 

5 receiver pass plays used to be a rather unsustainable approach to offense due in great part to the threat of harm to the QB.

 

The old shutdown CB, who was a rare breed even then, used to take out a good 1/3 of the opponents 3 receiver passing game.

 

And what's more, he probably took out the one guy who could consistently get open.

 

But now, all 5 receivers can get open. All areas of the field are open for business from sideline to sideline. QB's can take 5-7 step drops liberally which allows for longer routes which means more time to get open. Give receivers time, they get open.

 

At best, all a shutdown cb can do is take out one guy out of 5, and that one guy is no longer unique is his ability to get open.

 

The answer in pass defense is get quality pass rushers and quantity cornerbacks.

 

Every word you say is true. And to take it a step further, building a team from the secondary was always a stupid way to construct a team. The only championship team on which their best defensive unit was the secondary was the old Oakland Raiders. And that was before most posters here were born.

[BADOLBILZ]

Hey - nice post!

 

I love your reasoning, although I think it is a bit of a generalization, and I think it's tough to see any one team designed in a way that would make it a good match against all types of opponents, overall, if I were a GM I'd build a defense keeping what you said in mind. Here is how I'd do it:

 

I'd have two very large and agile DT's in the middle (Williams wall in Minny, the Bills D of ten years ago, the Ravens superbowl team). I think that having two guys in the middle that can more or less eliminate inside running, and also collapse the pocket from the interior, automatically makes the rest easier. That is where I'd start.

 

I'd make the rest of the front seven as fast and able to get to the QB and sideline to sideline as possible - looking for the big guys who are special and who can run as well. You shut down the inside run, you cover the outside runs and have the speed to cover tight ends and get to the QB, and the corners - as was eluded to - should be able to do the rest.

 

I would love it if the Bills got themselves two elite pass rushers - coupled with Dareus and Williams, that would be a Offensive Coordinators nightmare!

 

Thanks. I think any kind of pass rush is critical. Being able to stop the run at a high level is a bonus because there are bound to be teams that are able to run the ball for huge yardage because defenses will continue to look for quicker guys in the front 7.

 

I post this knowing full well that the Bills are usually behind on trends in the NFL. That's why they drafted a RB with a high first round pick 2 offseasons ago even though the role of the individual RB began decreasing a decade ago.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I'm just saying.....smashmouth defensive football is MORE THAN not likely to be making a comeback.

Tell that to San Fran,Giants, Denver, Ravens and the steelers are going back no matter what R-burger says.

[BADOLBILZ]

Every word you say is true. And to take it a step further, building a team from the secondary was always a stupid way to construct a team. The only championship team on which their best defensive unit was the secondary was the old Oakland Raiders. And that was before most posters here were born.

 

Of course, you and I agree on that. There was a time when you could trade out a pass rusher for a stud CB and get a similar result though. Not anymore. Quarterback and line play were always pretty much future proof picks but the Bills have spent half their draft picks since the merger on RB's and DB's.

 

Now, because of $$$$, I don't think that the defense has a prayer of turning the tide like it did in the mid-90's. Anything they come up with that hurts the offense is going to get legislated out.

 

The NFL is going to cash in on a crazy new tv deal, the players association is not liking the long term consequences of smashmouth football, and it is just a more interesting and marketable product if fragile geniuses like Aaron Rodgers are allowed to throw the football around without fear of decapitation.

 

Stud CB's are still going to be stud CB's just like stud runnin' bax are still stud runnin' bax. But their individual impact on the game is diminishing. I think we saw some of this last year in free agency with Joseph and Asomugha being allowed to hit free agency. Just going to be hard to justify paying one guy $15M per to do that job when his overall impact has diminished.

 

Tell that to San Fran,Giants, Denver, Ravens and the steelers are going back no matter what R-burger says.

 

Don't equate pass rush football with smashmouth football. Not the same. The Giants don't play smashmouth, they had a worst ranked defense statistically than the Bills.

 

And good luck to San Francisco keeping that all star defensive lineup intact.

 

The Steelers and Ravens defenses are a shadow of what they were just a couple years ago.

 

The Broncos.......the Bills and Patriots annihilated that defense. If that is smashmouth.....smashmouth is dead.

[agardin]

It is a game of match ups. If you have a shutdown corner you can roll coverages and/or send an extra guy. If you have a elite pass rusher the opponent will need to double your guy and leave match up problems elsewhere. If you have both then you will likely win a lot of games. That is why the CB and elite pass rusher are on the higher end of the pay scale. You can't take seven step drops and throw into good coverage and you can't take 7 step drops if there are guys in your QBs face. It is true that witout any pass rush the QB will make a play but the longer it takes (the better your coverage) the harder it is for an Oline to hold its' blocks.

 

I don't know if anyone counts coverage sacks vs regular sacks but that is a stat I would like to see, especially over the last few years.

 

It is an offensive league and the rule changes do make it harder to defend the pass but in the end if you need two to block my one and I can have one cover your best one and then double your second best then I will have a good day on D.

[BADOLBILZ]

It is a game of match ups. If you have a shutdown corner you can roll coverages and/or send an extra guy.

 

Has anyone else noticed the lack of a Michael Irvin or Jerry Rice superstar WR on the more successful teams? Which happen to be the more prolific passing offenses in the league?

 

The Packers, Saints, Pats, Chargers, Giants.......they couldn't care less about your $15M shutdown corner. If you want to play 10 on 10 football they will just throw the ball to the open man. A shutdown is a luxury item. If you got one, fine. If you have one without a pass rush, what's the point?

 

Now a pass rusher.......that's a different story. You get many benefits from guys who play near the LOS. A great pass rusher can be neutralized by a great offensive tackle, but you can move a pass rusher around and try to force a double team. That is a matchup advantage that still works.

[D'love]

I think you are thinking about 5 year ago NFL football. Yes, the zone blitz ushered in an era of creative pass defense in the 1990's. It was created to counter teams that played offense THEN (Bills/Niners) like teams do now, but much of the impact of that has been legislated out of the game.

 

Look for teams......like the Bills and keep it simple Dave Wannstedt.......to go back to more conservative defensive tactics to speed up defenders and try to play their best defense in the red zone when the limited space negates some of the offenses heavy advantage. The closer you get to the goal line, the greater the impact of penetration at the LOS.

 

I don't expect to see crazy pin-ball scoring numbers, but the pass yardage will continue to be astronomical.

 

I think this past Super Bowl is what will be passing for a defensive struggle from here on out.

 

 

 

Yeah, that was kind of the deterrent years ago. Now, the QB takes the quick dump off and the unblocked blitzer pulls up quickly to avoid a penalty and more importantly.......a fine that comes out of HIS paycheck.

 

Players are money motivated. Why would they risk a fine if it meant losing money? Well, the NFL is in the process of closing up any potential loopholes.....ANY..... to their strategy. Google "Gregg".

 

I think you mean more aggressive defenses with simpler roles for each player. The goal is for your athlete to beat their athlete. Less agressive = reactionary and slower. More aggressive makes the offense react to the defense.

[Green Lightning]

Get to the QB consistently, hit the QB, disrupt the QB's timing, sack him and bat down his passes. The Giants did that for 60 mins on Brady and it worked. Don't care who the QB is...it works. Dareus and KW will collapse the middle. We just need two DE's to do the rest ...I say just...but that's the deal.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Get to the QB consistently, hit the QB, disrupt the QB's timing, sack him and bat down his passes. The Giants did that for 60 mins on Brady and it worked. Don't care who the QB is...it works. Dareus and KW will collapse the middle. We just need two DE's to do the rest ...I say just...but that's the deal.

Agree with you and DD, all things being equal, pass rushers before cover men.

 

Also, yes. With our two outstanding interior D-linemen all we need is two edge rushers and the Bills pose serious problems for their opponents.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

I think you mean more aggressive defenses with simpler roles for each player. The goal is for your athlete to beat their athlete. Less agressive = reactionary and slower. More aggressive makes the offense react to the defense.

 

Yeah conservative was a poor choice of words. "Simpler" is what I was going for.

[UConn James]

Of course, you and I agree on that. There was a time when you could trade out a pass rusher for a stud CB and get a similar result though. Not anymore. Quarterback and line play were always pretty much future proof picks but the Bills have spent half their draft picks since the merger on RB's and DB's.

 

Now, because of $$$$, I don't think that the defense has a prayer of turning the tide like it did in the mid-90's. Anything they come up with that hurts the offense is going to get legislated out.

 

The NFL is going to cash in on a crazy new tv deal, the players association is not liking the long term consequences of smashmouth football, and it is just a more interesting and marketable product if fragile geniuses like Aaron Rodgers are allowed to throw the football around without fear of decapitation.

 

Stud CB's are still going to be stud CB's just like stud runnin' bax are still stud runnin' bax. But their individual impact on the game is diminishing. I think we saw some of this last year in free agency with Joseph and Asomugha being allowed to hit free agency. Just going to be hard to justify paying one guy $15M per to do that job when his overall impact has diminished.

 

All kinds of truth in this thread!

 

We've seen the castration of defense.