Dennis in NC Posted March 3, 2012 Posted March 3, 2012 At the tail end of a play Wood was running downfield near the sidelines alongside a D-lineman. The D-lineman pushed him. It was an innocent looking play but Wood seemed to be caught off guard and fell awkwardly. Torn ACL. Wasn't this on a play where Fitz had been intercepted, and the offense became defenders trying to tackle to DB?
Dan Posted March 3, 2012 Posted March 3, 2012 1330783221[/url]' post='2393944'] I didn't post this to try to sell the Bills OL to anyone. And, the lowest ratings I gave were to the spots that you mentioned (LT and C). The good news is that it is no longer the weakest unit on this team. This alone is amazing for the Bills. Remember Marcus Spriggs? Greg Jerman? Jerry Ostroski? Duke Preston? Urbik is better than the 48 million dollar Dockery, and Pears is better than the 25 million dollar Langston Walker. Does this stop me from wanting a standout talent at LT? Of course not. But, LB is a big problem too imo. Other than Barnett, who is on the wrong side of 30, what LB do you like on this roster? Sheppard? He really needs to show more. In summary, if the Bills can grab a franchise LT in round 1, this is obviously a good thing. He wouldn't have to be Orlando Pace/Anthony Munoz either in order for this to be a good pick. A LT at the talent level of a Brad Hopkins or Tarik Glenn would be a great thing. But if a top LT isn't there, they better do something about LB/DE. Again, jmo. For me, this is exactly how I see it. The Oline, although not great, is easily not the worst unit on the team. DE/LB is... period. Depending upon what they do in FA, I'd put WR next. Then, LT. So depending upon the health of a few of our own players, who they do or don't sign as FA (including our own guys), and who's available at #10, you take the best player at one of those positions. see... it really is just that simple.
DanInUticaTampa Posted March 3, 2012 Posted March 3, 2012 I'm not sure what people are seeing in Pears. Maybe I need to look again, but he didn't seem anything special to me. Average. Average can look pretty amazing when you compare it to the other players we had at rt in recent years
thewildrabbit Posted March 3, 2012 Posted March 3, 2012 I'm not sure what people are seeing in Pears. Maybe I need to look again, but he didn't seem anything special to me. Average. I agree No offense to Bill but this set of linemen grades out with D's and F's in my book with any other QB. The ONLY player who played like a pro bowler last season was center Eric Wood, and it sucks he was injured again or he might have had a shot at getting that honor. This line is mostly masked and protected by the scheme and the QB, so the GM & HC thought they could get away with sub par players...and they did for awhile. But take note that once the Bengals showed other teams how to defend the Bills short quick passing offense in week 4 the offensive scoring started to diminish week by week as the season went on. Even tho the play caller kept calling more and more passing plays. That week 16, 40-14 win over the Denver Bronco's was all the defense & Special Teams scoring as the offense only scored 6 pts, and that was by the RB. The spread formation also accounts for the better RB play as opposing defense can't really stack the box! If the defenders are spread out and if the RB breaks a tackle he makes a big gain. This also accounts for the all the long runs this past year. If you look at the RB play week by week vs last year both Spiller and Jackson had more long runs then in previous years. NFN, but if this team ever wants to compete against the better defenses they need to get a deep passing game working. In order to do that they need to upgrade that line on at least 2-3 positions. JMO
spartacus Posted March 3, 2012 Posted March 3, 2012 Average can look pretty amazing when you compare it to the other players we had at rt in recent years the guy can't pass block or run block consistently - but since he is not a jailbreak on every play -he is studly in Bills land
Bill from NYC Posted March 3, 2012 Author Posted March 3, 2012 Average can look pretty amazing when you compare it to the other players we had at rt in recent years SO true Dan!!! There were many times where the Bills had 1 or 2 professional level blockers on their entire roster. And, a number of factors now enter into the equation: 1) This is now a passing league. 2) The Bills play outdoors, in the elements. The running game will ALWAYS matter more to the Bills than it does to dome, or hot weather teams. I will never back down from this stance. 3) Fred Jackson sees a hole better thsn any RB we have fielded since Thurman Thomas. Spiller gets by on pure speed, and needs more room. This requires power blocking on the right side. We have more of this now than we have had in how long? A good, healthy LT would make this a MUCH better team. Pears/Hairston are more than we have fielded at RT in decades. That said, we lack pass rush and credible LBs. Improvement is a tall order, but I have my fingers crossed that Nix bases this draft/FA period on making this a stronger team, rather than selling tickets. We will see.
Bill from NYC Posted March 3, 2012 Author Posted March 3, 2012 I agree No offense to Bill but this set of linemen grades out with D's and F's in my book with any other QB. The ONLY player who played like a pro bowler last season was center Eric Wood, and it sucks he was injured again or he might have had a shot at getting that honor. This line is mostly masked and protected by the scheme and the QB, so the GM & HC thought they could get away with sub par players...and they did for awhile. But take note that once the Bengals showed other teams how to defend the Bills short quick passing offense in week 4 the offensive scoring started to diminish week by week as the season went on. Even tho the play caller kept calling more and more passing plays. That week 16, 40-14 win over the Denver Bronco's was all the defense & Special Teams scoring as the offense only scored 6 pts, and that was by the RB. The spread formation also accounts for the better RB play as opposing defense can't really stack the box! If the defenders are spread out and if the RB breaks a tackle he makes a big gain. This also accounts for the all the long runs this past year. If you look at the RB play week by week vs last year both Spiller and Jackson had more long runs then in previous years. NFN, but if this team ever wants to compete against the better defenses they need to get a deep passing game working. In order to do that they need to upgrade that line on at least 2-3 positions. JMO No offense taken; I appreciate the dialogue. Actually, I think that we are on the same page. Fitz put up some OK numbers with a less than distinguished wr corps. He would, imo, strongly benefit from help at LT, and they need to improve the situation at Center. The bolded is where we disagree. Imo Andy Levitre is a top quality LG.
papazoid Posted March 4, 2012 Posted March 4, 2012 WOW !! I went & looked at the link ------ And it MIGHT have something to it BUT , seeing as we had the 3rd LEAST sacked QB in the league AND up to the point of him getting hurt one of if not the best RB as far as out put in the league AND then when CJ came in we continued to show the ability of the line to open wholes for our RB's just makes me think this guy that wrote this article is a first class DINK !!!!!!! When it comes to evaluating talent in the NFL !! Maybe thats why he's a writer & not a football coach -- YA THINK ????? I DO !!! in all fairness....that ranking was done BEFORE last season started (Aug 2011). they/he might rank em differently this year. i do think on the plus side that Woods at Center and Levitre at Left Guard are studs. on the negative side, i truly believe we have the worst starting Tackles in the league. just to repeat myself, that 3rd least sack stat is mainly because Fitz is smart enough to throw the ball in 3 seconds or less. most lines provide LONGER pass protection. Fred Jackson near leading the league in YAC is a testament to him, NOT the line.
silvermike Posted March 4, 2012 Posted March 4, 2012 No offense taken; I appreciate the dialogue. Actually, I think that we are on the same page. Fitz put up some OK numbers with a less than distinguished wr corps. He would, imo, strongly benefit from help at LT, and they need to improve the situation at Center. The bolded is where we disagree. Imo Andy Levitre is a top quality LG. Levitre and Wood are great offensive linemen (health notwithstanding, of course). The other three are all passable, and Demetrius Bell might even be a little bit above average, but the injuries are killers. They look better because of Fitz's quick release, Freddie's instincts, and CJ Spiller's speed, but there are other QBs with lightning-quick instincts in the league, and they were sacked more often than Fitz (we were one of the best in QB sacks saved, so this shouldn't take anythign away from Fitz, either, see below). Freddie and CJ are a great pair of backs, but the Bills did better per-carry than 29 teams in this league, and the team average of 4.9 yards per carry topped MJD, Ray Rice, Michael Turner, LeSean McCoy, Arian Foster, Marshawn Lynch, Willis McGahee, Frank Gore, and Steven Jackson: the top 9 rushers in the league last year. They tied with #10 Ryan Matthews. I don't think you can rule out the line altogether here, injuries and all. And besides the league-best 23 sacks allowed, the Bills were 10th best with 69 QB hits allowed. Fitz's quick decisions can't escape post-release hits. While I'm looking at these numbers, let's use that QB hits minus sacks as a rule of thumb for "QB sacks saved". We've got 46 of them. Here's the rest: Denver: 26 San Diego: 27 New Orleans: 27 Minnesota: 27 Carolina: 30 NYJ: 30 Kansas City: 30 Tennessee: 31 Tampa Bay: 32 Green Bay: 32 Jacksonville: 32 Arizona: 32 Pittsburgh: 35 Cincinnati: 35 Houston: 35 San Francisco: 38 Chicago: 38 New England: 39 Philadelphia: 40 Oakland: 41 Detroit: 42 Dallas: 42 Cleveland: 44 NYG: 44 Miami: 44 Baltimore: 45 Indianapolis: 46 Buffalo: 46 Atlanta: 58 St. Louis: 59 Seattle: 64 Washington: 67
thewildrabbit Posted March 4, 2012 Posted March 4, 2012 No offense taken; I appreciate the dialogue. Actually, I think that we are on the same page. Fitz put up some OK numbers with a less than distinguished wr corps. He would, imo, strongly benefit from help at LT, and they need to improve the situation at Center. The bolded is where we disagree. Imo Andy Levitre is a top quality LG. Yea we disagree on Levitre. Although I think he played well at guard, he really stunk it up at center and LT. Again, he was good at guard last season, just not elite. You need elite to be named to the pro bowl IMO. However, we both agree that Andy levitre's play would be greatly enhanced if he had a better player next to him at LT. What also hurt him was when Urbik moved to center. It goes back to that old saying, its tough to soar like an eagle when surrounded by turkeys. I think we also disagree on past players on that line as Jason Peters is an elite player at LT even if no Bills fans want to acknowledge that fact. Guard Derrick Dockery and RT Langston Walker played well under line coach Jim McNally. But then the line play went downhill after his retirement. The problem with that line with Peters, Walker and Dockery was they never did have anyone at the center position worth a damn. Which is just about as much a key position as the tackles. That line needs 5 reasonably good players to be an top effective unit. It really is a darn shame this GM & HC didn't build that line properly when they first got to Buffalo as even top LT's take some time to jell in the offensive scheme. Not every player can step right in and succeed the moment they hit the field I can only hope Nix and Gailey work to improve that line this year.
Bill from NYC Posted March 4, 2012 Author Posted March 4, 2012 Yea we disagree on Levitre. Although I think he played well at guard, he really stunk it up at center and LT. Again, he was good at guard last season, just not elite. You need elite to be named to the pro bowl IMO. However, we both agree that Andy levitre's play would be greatly enhanced if he had a better player next to him at LT. What also hurt him was when Urbik moved to center. It goes back to that old saying, its tough to soar like an eagle when surrounded by turkeys. I think we also disagree on past players on that line as Jason Peters is an elite player at LT even if no Bills fans want to acknowledge that fact. Guard Derrick Dockery and RT Langston Walker played well under line coach Jim McNally. But then the line play went downhill after his retirement. The problem with that line with Peters, Walker and Dockery was they never did have anyone at the center position worth a damn. Which is just about as much a key position as the tackles. That line needs 5 reasonably good players to be an top effective unit. It really is a darn shame this GM & HC didn't build that line properly when they first got to Buffalo as even top LT's take some time to jell in the offensive scheme. Not every player can step right in and succeed the moment they hit the field I can only hope Nix and Gailey work to improve that line this year. Not that I blame you, but you must not be familiar with my posts. When the Bills traded Peters, he was the best player on the team by a wide margin. I was, and still am disgusted by this trade. Walker? He could barely get out of his stance. As I recall, he barely played after the Bills got rid of him. Dockery? He got his money and had the cleanest uniform in the NFL. I watched him game after game fail to put forth effort, and he wasn't all that skilled to begin with. Now, wrt Levitre, he imo is a perfect OG for the "new" NFL. I don't know how old you are. I wish I was younger but I remember a Guard named Larry Little. As I recall his nickname was "Highway 66." Larry Czonka would get the ball, and tuck it in with his right arm. He would put his left hand on Little's huge ass and follow him for long gains. When Little would pull around the OC with a head of steam, he was brutal. Czonka played out his contract and signed with the Giants for a bundle, and he was an average at best back. There were other brutal Guards such as John Hannah. But again, the game has changed. Levitre is more of a finesse blocker than a brute. He is very good at pass protection having played LT in College. Today, receivers can go over the middle with less fear. Safeties such as Donnie Shell, Ronnie Lott, Jack Tatum, etc. would be fined, suspended, and probably tossed from the NFL. So like it or not, passing means more today, and Levitre is a great fit. Btw, I STILL think that running the football means more to the Bills than most teams. They play outdoors in the elements, as do 2 of their divisional opponents. So I am always about improving the OL. It just isn't as bad as it used to be imo.
BobChalmers Posted March 4, 2012 Posted March 4, 2012 in all fairness....that ranking was done BEFORE last season started (Aug 2011). they/he might rank em differently this year. i do think on the plus side that Woods at Center and Levitre at Left Guard are studs. on the negative side, i truly believe we have the worst starting Tackles in the league. just to repeat myself, that 3rd least sack stat is mainly because Fitz is smart enough to throw the ball in 3 seconds or less. most lines provide LONGER pass protection. Fred Jackson near leading the league in YAC is a testament to him, NOT the line. In other words, using it in this discussion is utter bunk. Thank you. I don't see much in Pears either - except a big contract extension the Bills just gave him last year. Those here who expect Hairston to take over at RT this season can forget it. Nix - as with many things this off season, has been perfectly up front about the situation... Paraphrasing Nix only a little: 1. "Bell's very good IF he's healthy - but so far he's not been healthy enough." 2. "You can always use more help at Offensive Tackle" and "you can move Tackles to Gaurd if you have to". 3. "We're going to draft another tackle." He's also said what the analysts have said - in spite of the fact that he and Gailey know pass rush is the #1 need - the pass rushers in this year's draft don't justify high #1 picks. There's a good chance they take an OLT if one they like is still there. If they let Bell walk (though they won't if they can keep him for cheap) then I'd say the odds are VERY high they go OLT in the first round.
silvermike Posted March 4, 2012 Posted March 4, 2012 Speaking of rankings, here's Pro Football Focus last week: Run Rank 12th, Pass Rank 2nd, Penalties Rank 6th Quite the turnaround for a Bills line that did a great job giving it’s quarterback sufficient time, and making life easy for their running backs. The impressive thing is how well the Bills did despite suffering a number of injuries, cutting short the breakout year of Demetrius Bell (+6.8) and forcing a number of positional shifts. Best Player: It’s a testament to Andy Levitre (+13.3) that despite having to play center and left tackle at various points of the year that he still put forth such a strong season. One of the better left guards on the year, how good could he be if he was allowed to flourish in one spot? Worst Player: It’s always tough to pick on a rookie, but Chris Hairston (-8.0) was the weakest of links in his 475 snaps. He didn’t embarrass himself, but such was the quality of the line that he was the only candidate for this category. 4th overall: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/
D2K Posted March 4, 2012 Posted March 4, 2012 exactly !!.... the unit as whole SUCKS !!...according to Rotoworld's analysis they are ranked 30th out of 32 teams. the ONLY reason they show up statistically at all is because Fitz throws the ball in 3 seconds or less and Fred Jackson is a league leader in YAC yards after contact. http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/38453/179/matchups YOu have got to be kidding me. That article was written in August of 2011. BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED. What a joke. Here is what is currently being said about our Oline: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/ http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/21/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/ http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/ THis offensive line is really good, and so many people grossly undervalue them.
LynchMob23 Posted March 4, 2012 Posted March 4, 2012 I think also you have to give credit to Joe D as an oline coach piecing these guys together and having them play as a unit - because they truly were more than the naked eye sum of their parts!
Bill from NYC Posted March 4, 2012 Author Posted March 4, 2012 YOu have got to be kidding me. That article was written in August of 2011. BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED. What a joke. Here is what is currently being said about our Oline: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/ http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/21/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/ http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/ THis offensive line is really good, and so many people grossly undervalue them. It isn't "really good." There are problems. It's just that for a change, it isn't the weakest unit on the team. If they were THAT good, we would not be drafting in the 10 slot.
D2K Posted March 4, 2012 Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) It isn't "really good." There are problems. It's just that for a change, it isn't the weakest unit on the team. If they were THAT good, we would not be drafting in the 10 slot. Really? You actually belive what you just typed? So the Bills would have won more than 6 games if the Oline was better, is your argument? Thats hilarious to the point of absurdity. So how many wins does an offensive line get your football team? How many losses are they responsible for? What about when that unit ranks as one of the top units in the league? What about when your starting Rb is leading the league in rushing before he gets injured and your backup comes and the run game is still effective? Lets not blame the real problem. A QB who is a bottom feeder in the league, who is on his 3rd team in his 7th going on 8th year. A QB who led the league in INT's? Couldnt be him? Couldnt be a defense that couldnt even get PRESSURE on Qb's. It must be the must productive unit on the entire team. Makes sense!!!! Lets waste a top 10 pick on a OT. Instead of addressing the defense or playmakers. Brilliant. Edited March 4, 2012 by D2K
JohnC Posted March 5, 2012 Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) I am sorry that I posted to you. You are clearly an insane idiot, and I shouldn't have wated my time or yours. Again, I am sorry. NYC Bill, Let's take out the petulance and vitriol of D2K's post and break it down. He makes the point that Fitz is a lower tiered starting qb. He is correct. He also makes the point that our defense was incapable of putting pressure on the qb in a passing league. I'm sure you will agree that he is not unfairly describing our defense. He didn't mention that the Bills arguably had at best one of the worst receiving corps in the league. There is a bigger point to be made regarding his post and indirectly what he was getting at. The Bills are still a long way from being a complete team. There are gaping deficiencies on both sides of the ball that can't all be addressed by this very staid organization in one year. If a 93 yr old owner who has presided over a generation of losing football doesn't exhibit an urgency then all you can ask for is incremental improvement with good drafting and a few productive free agent acquisitions. In my view getting a quality OT and solidifying the OL would be very useful. It would also help the qb who although a somewhat erratic thrower is superb at reading defenses. With more time he would be able to mix more intermediate and longer routes instead of the standard quick hitters that were eventually neutralized by the defenses. In general, adding another good receiver from the free agency market would help him maximize his average talents. My general drafting philosophy is very simple. (I'm sure you get tired of my tiresome mantra.) Make your picks count by (in general) putting more emphasis on the talent than on a particular position. If I had my druthers I would select an OT with our first pick, assuming he is one of our higher rated player on the board. If the first selection is not an OT and the player is a quality pick you won't get a complaint from me. Edited March 5, 2012 by JohnC
billsfan89 Posted March 5, 2012 Posted March 5, 2012 Wood when healthy is a very good NFL center. Problem is he has some freak injury issues (Which may or may not mean he is injury prone). This season is make or break for him as the guy can play just can he stay on the field.
BillsWatch Posted March 5, 2012 Posted March 5, 2012 I think we also disagree on past players on that line as Jason Peters is an elite player at LT even if no Bills fans want to acknowledge that fact. Guard Derrick Dockery and RT Langston Walker played well under line coach Jim McNally. But then the line play went downhill after his retirement. The problem with that line with Peters, Walker and Dockery was they never did have anyone at the center position worth a damn. Which is just about as much a key position as the tackles. That line needs 5 reasonably good players to be an top effective unit. Nice of you to put in black and white that you are not a Bills fan; Eagles fans also say he is overrated but I guess they see nothing too. Site should require paid advocates of players to be registered.
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