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Posted

Again....a complete fabrication on your part.

 

You offer nothing but cliches.

 

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No, both Santorum and Paul are on record as saying that recreational sex is immoral.

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Posted

No, both Santorum and Paul are on record as saying that recreational sex is immoral.

 

Do they actually think that, or just say it to pander to the fundamentalist base?

 

I suspect, even if they "think" that, they certainly don't practice it.

Posted (edited)

I actually think it shows how much they miss the point. To view this as a men oppressing women thing is kind of juvenile of them. There are many women who are anti-abortion and many men that are pro-abortion.

It's also intellectually dishonest because the issue revolves around killing a baby. Whichever side of the issue you're on, that is still the issue, and whether you consider it a baby or a mass of cells it is still a life form growing into a person that is killed. When a man takes viagra nothing gets killed. Referring to all matters involving abortion as "women's reproductive health issue" as though there are no moral or substantive difference between that and any other procedure involving reproductive health is nothing more than zooming out to an arbitrary point of abstraction to obscure the reality of the situation.

 

 

All due respect Rob, I think you are completely missing their point. If the issue is about "killing a baby", then Republicans should use the correct politcal channels to repeal the abortion laws, rather than harassing women who are not breaking any laws. The viagra issue is rediculous, and that is the point. If women must be subjected to unnecessqary ultra-sounds, they are saying, why shouldn't men be subjected to unnecessary heart evaluations, as viagra can affect those with heart conditions. It is really not up to you, or me, to decide what is a matter of a woman's health. Everyone is so concerned about who pays for birth control, nobody cares about who pays for expensive, and unnecessary ultra-sounds?

 

Do they actually think that, or just say it to pander to the fundamentalist base?

 

I suspect, even if they "think" that, they certainly don't practice it.

 

 

I don't know, but they both said it in the last (or one of the last two) Republican debates. So much for Ron Paul, the great libertarian!

Edited by Buftex
Posted

No, both Santorum and Paul are on record as saying that recreational sex is immoral.

 

Define recreational.

Posted

I don't know, but they both said it in the last (or one of the last two) Republican debates. So much for Ron Paul, the great libertarian!

 

...and I care less about what they believe than I do what they do. So they think recreational sex is immoral. So what? Unless they try to prosecute and ban it, they can think what they want.

 

Big difference between thinking X is immoral, and thinking X should be illegal.

Posted

All due respect Rob, I think you are completely missing their point. If the issue is about "killing a baby", then Republicans should use the correct politcal channels to repeal the abortion laws, rather than harassing women who are not breaking any laws. The viagra issue is rediculous, and that is the point. If women must be subjected to unnecessqary ultra-sounds, they are saying, why shouldn't men be subjected to unnecessary heart evaluations, as viagra can affect those with heart conditions. It is really not up to you, or me, to decide what is a matter of a woman's health. Everyone is so concerned about who pays for birth control, nobody cares about who pays for expensive, and unnecessary ultra-sounds?

 

 

Whose health do you think the ultrasound is MOST geared towards?

Posted

All due respect Rob, I think you are completely missing their point. If the issue is about "killing a baby", then Republicans should use the correct politcal channels to repeal the abortion laws, rather than harassing women who are not breaking any laws. The viagra issue is rediculous, and that is the point. If women must be subjected to unnecessqary ultra-sounds, they are saying, why shouldn't men be subjected to unnecessary heart evaluations, as viagra can affect those with heart conditions. It is really not up to you, or me, to decide what is a matter of a woman's health. Everyone is so concerned about who pays for birth control, nobody cares about who pays for expensive, and unnecessary ultra-sounds?

You're still obscuring the issue. Whether you think it's the proper channel or not doesn't change the fact that the purpose of the measure is to protect the unborn baby rather than to have a man decide what is a matter of "a woman's health". 98% of the time the abortion isn't a matter of a "woman's health" it's a matter of a woman's convenience. The fact that you guys must speak so euphemistically and abstractly about the matter indicates that you instinctively know this.

Posted

Whose health do you think the ultrasound is MOST geared towards?

 

No one's. Isn't that part of the issue? That the law mandates it without any real need?

Posted

All due respect Rob, I think you are completely missing their point. If the issue is about "killing a baby", then Republicans should use the correct politcal channels to repeal the abortion laws, rather than harassing women who are not breaking any laws. The viagra issue is rediculous, and that is the point. If women must be subjected to unnecessqary ultra-sounds, they are saying, why shouldn't men be subjected to unnecessary heart evaluations, as viagra can affect those with heart conditions. It is really not up to you, or me, to decide what is a matter of a woman's health. Everyone is so concerned about who pays for birth control, nobody cares about who pays for expensive, and unnecessary ultra-sounds?

 

 

 

 

I don't know, but they both said it in the last (or one of the last two) Republican debates. So much for Ron Paul, the great libertarian!

 

 

I think a prescription is required for ED medication, so a doctor is automatically involved.

Posted

No one's. Isn't that part of the issue? That the law mandates it without any real need?

 

How do you figure that an ultrasound doesn't give a doctor information on anyone's health?

Posted

You're still obscuring the issue. Whether you think it's the proper channel or not doesn't change the fact that the purpose of the measure is to protect the unborn baby rather than to have a man decide what is a matter of "a woman's health". 98% of the time the abortion isn't a matter of a "woman's health" it's a matter of a woman's convenience. The fact that you guys must speak so euphemistically and abstractly about the matter indicates that you instinctively know this.

 

 

I am not obscuring anything. If your data is correct (I will take your word for it), then change the law at the heart of the issue...but don't harass people that aren't breaking the law, as it stands. I don't know to make that point any simplier. Obviously, we have to agree to disagree on this one.

Posted

I am not obscuring anything. If your data is correct (I will take your word for it), then change the law at the heart of the issue...but don't harass people that aren't breaking the law, as it stands. I don't know to make that point any simplier. Obviously, we have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on this point. I'm simply stating that the attempt to draw some equivalence between viagra and abortion is contrived at best because aside from falling under a very broad catagorization of "reproductive health" they have nothing in common.

Posted

How do you figure that an ultrasound doesn't give a doctor information on anyone's health?

 

That the doctor needs?

 

An MRI gives my doctor information; doesn't mean he requires one every time I have joint pain.

Posted

This is another deflection by the left.........an ultrasound is standard procedure before an abortion.

 

Published in the medical journal Contraception in 2003, researchers with the group IPAS, the University of North Carolina, a consortium of Planned Parenthood clinics and the National Abortion Federation surveyed staff at 113 Planned Parenthood affiliates and independent abortion businesses between February and April 2000.

 

 

Almost all sites offering early medical abortion always performed a vaginal ultrasound before and after the abortion, consistent with common practice in the US,” the study said.

 

Surveying 72 of the abortion businesses that sold the abortion pill to women, the researchers found abortion facilities frequently use vaginal ultrasounds before an abortion to determine the gestational age of the baby or afterwards to determine if the abortion was complete. In fact 99 percent of the abortion facilities surveyed always or sometimes performed an ultrasound in association with the surgical abortion — while just one percent did not.

 

 

Contraception Study

 

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Posted

I don't know, but they both said it in the last (or one of the last two) Republican debates. So much for Ron Paul, the great libertarian!

 

Ron Paul may personally think it's immoral but show me where he stated that he believes it's the governments role to enforce morality upon others?

 

I think a prescription is required for ED medication, so a doctor is automatically involved.

Haven't been out to a nightclub recently?

Posted

This is another deflection by the left.........an ultrasound is standard procedure before an abortion.

 

Published in the medical journal Contraception in 2003, researchers with the group IPAS, the University of North Carolina, a consortium of Planned Parenthood clinics and the National Abortion Federation surveyed staff at 113 Planned Parenthood affiliates and independent abortion businesses between February and April 2000.

 

 

Almost all sites offering early medical abortion always performed a vaginal ultrasound before and after the abortion, consistent with common practice in the US,” the study said.

 

Surveying 72 of the abortion businesses that sold the abortion pill to women, the researchers found abortion facilities frequently use vaginal ultrasounds before an abortion to determine the gestational age of the baby or afterwards to determine if the abortion was complete. In fact 99 percent of the abortion facilities surveyed always or sometimes performed an ultrasound in association with the surgical abortion — while just one percent did not.

 

 

Contraception Study

 

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And this is another example of complete "intellectual dishonesty" or ignorance by Republicans. Utrasounds are a normal part of an abortion procedure, not transvagianl ultrasounds.

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