Illegal Immigration Takes Its Toll

[Wacka]

Come out to CA or AZ and see for yourself how bad it is. We had a public hospital close because of the cost of treating illegals. To be a manager at McD's or any other fast food place, you must know Spanish.

I live in the suburbs. A local chain of 10 Mexican Restaurants (all in the suburbs) closed up because about 80% of the staff in the whole chain were illegal.The Mexican gangs are worse than the Crips or Bloods because they don't care who they kill.

[Jim in Anchorage]

I believe that we as a country should be more inclusive and that the rhetoric from the right to be too divisive. Whether you like it or not, there are a few realities regarding immigration, one the net gain from an economic standpoint outweighs the costs incurred from illegal immigration, two in order for there to be meaningful growth, population growth through immigration is a key part to making that happen and three from a political standpoint, the latino population is the fastest growing population in the US,and if the conservatives want to win elections moving forward, they better start gameplanning a strategy that includes them in their tent. Jeb Bush gets it, and so does Marco Rubio.

 

And I hate watching these primaries, specially this one, simply because the tea party without a doubt has driven the conservative movement a few notches to the right, so everyone is trying to prove that they are more conservative than the guy next to him (except Ron Paul of course). It's a turnoff. And for many people, specially in the age of the American Idol society, people look at these issues almost if not more than they look at who can run this economy better.

 

Like I said, if the focus can stay on the economy, ROmney wins, he is vastly superior to Obama when it come to handling the economy and the debt, if the Obama campaign can divert the attention away from the economy (which they will desperately want to) and steer it towards social issues, how Repubiclans are stuck in the dark ages, immigration, how Romney hate poor people and wants to protect his wall street buddies and that he waxes poetic about trees being the right size, then Obama wins.

You might want to step back a moment. You got a-

 

Hurrah

From DiN. Think about that.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Jim in Anchorage

[3rdnlng]

Why don't you try reading the 14th amendment?

 

What does the 14th Amendment have to do with illegal immigration?

[IDBillzFan]

...the net gain from an economic standpoint outweighs the costs incurred from illegal immigration...

 

I suspect this sounds nice on a national scale, but spend a year living, working and/or running a business in California and see how fast you change your tune. Illegal immigration is killing this state, and Arizona as well. Sometimes literally. In fact, the only upside to the crappy state of our California/Arizona economies is that even the Mexicans don't want to come here unless they're about to drop a baby.

 

Not to mention, we have legal ways to enter this country and people do it all the time. My grandparents did it. Not holding accountable those here illegally is a bitchslap to those who do things right. I don't mind compromising some items for the sake of advancing society, but it's time to build it deep and far and force people to enter this country the correct way. And you don't need to be a tea partier pushing the GOP to the right to understand and accept that point. We start with E-verify and making everyone show a valid form of ID to vote.

[Magox]

I suspect this sounds nice on a national scale, but spend a year living, working and/or running a business in California and see how fast you change your tune. Illegal immigration is killing this state, and Arizona as well. Sometimes literally. In fact, the only upside to the crappy state of our California/Arizona economies is that even the Mexicans don't want to come here unless they're about to drop a baby.

 

Not to mention, we have legal ways to enter this country and people do it all the time. My grandparents did it. Not holding accountable those here illegally is a bitchslap to those who do things right. I don't mind compromising some items for the sake of advancing society, but it's time to build it deep and far and force people to enter this country the correct way. And you don't need to be a tea partier pushing the GOP to the right to understand and accept that point. We start with E-verify and making everyone show a valid form of ID to vote.

It's the tone, the rhetoric, the overexaggeration of the perils of illegal immigration that I dislike. Latino's generally speaking, don't want to be part of a party that demogogues them. There are more effective and constructive ways with solving this issue, the party has steered super right on this issue, and it's a losing issue.

 

The best thing they could do is go along with the Dream Act and add in a few provisions such as tightening up the border and this E verify idea. And to stop talking down and demogoguing latino's. The claims from the right are wildly overexaggerated both from the economic and violence standpoints. That's a fact!

 

The left creates boogeymen and so do the right. The lefts boogeymen are more like "If you don't pass this bill 'babies will die' " or "If you don't pass this bill 'seniors will have no healthcare'"

 

The rights boogeymen are "If we don't go into this country, the religious fanatics are gonna come after us" or "If we don't secure the border, more people are going to die because of Mexican drug dealers"

 

It's all a bunch of bull ****! Just like Jeb Bush said, which is that the candidates are "appealing to people's fears" Thats true. I hate seeing it, why? Because it is an issue that doesn't play well in the general elections,and rather than people focusing on what they truly should be focusing on, which is the economy and debt, you will get the shallow segment of the population focusing on these lesser important issues.

[3rdnlng]

It's the tone, the rhetoric, the overexaggeration of the perils of illegal immigration that I dislike. Latino's generally speaking, don't want to be part of a party that demogogues them. There are more effective and constructive ways with solving this issue, the party has steered super right on this issue, and it's a losing issue.

 

The best thing they could do is go along with the Dream Act and add in a few provisions such as tightening up the border and this E verify idea. And to stop talking down and demogoguing latino's. The claims from the right are wildly overexaggerated both from the economic and violence standpoints. That's a fact!

 

The left creates boogeymen and so do the right. The lefts boogeymen are more like "If you don't pass this bill 'babies will die' " or "If you don't pass this bill 'seniors will have no healthcare'"

 

The rights boogeymen are "If we don't go into this country, the religious fanatics are gonna come after us" or "If we don't secure the border, more people are going to die because of Mexican drug dealers"

 

It's all a bunch of bull ****! Just like Jeb Bush said, which is that the candidates are "appealing to people's fears" Thats true. I hate seeing it, why? Because it is an issue that doesn't play well in the general elections,and rather than people focusing on what they truly should be focusing on, which is the economy and debt, you will get the shallow segment of the population focusing on these lesser important issues.

 

 

Do you think that illegal immigrants put a strain on such things as state budgets and healthcare costs?

[Magox]

Do you think that illegal immigrants put a strain on such things as state budgets and healthcare costs?

In many cases, yes.

 

I'm not an absolutist, don't believe in it, and happen to believe that its a deeply flawed way of thinking. Are there cases to be made for more protection at the border? Absolutely. Are there legitimate arguments that it does cause certain sectors of state government budgets to go deep in the red? Yep. On the otherhand do alot of these illegal immigrants create more favorable employer conditions? Yep. Do some of these illegal immigrants help us with population expansion which is critical for economic growth (See Europe)? You better believe it. Do illegal immigrants bring in added sales tax revenues? You betcha.

 

What the future of the conservative movement needs is more inclusiveness. From a social standpoint, alot of these latinos are very socially conservative, they can be brought under the tent, but if you alienate them, make them feel like they are a bunch of wetback fence hopping drug pushers that create economic chaos, then they will run over to the Liberals. And do you blame them?

 

So the solution involves inclusivity, protection of borders and integrating them into our society through legal means. Which of course would add more tax revenues.

 

That's the solution.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Magox

[LeviF]

UCRs don't contain immigration status. Booking cards for a jail do, but I don't know if that is reported to the FBI or not.

That doesn't surprise me. Thanks for the heads-up, it's been a while since I played around with that data.

[Chef Jim]

In many cases, yes.

 

I'm not an absolutist, don't believe in it, and happen to believe that its a deeply flawed way of thinking. Are there cases to be made for more protection at the border? Absolutely. Are there legitimate arguments that it does cause certain sectors of state government budgets to go deep in the red? Yep. On the otherhand do alot of these illegal immigrants create more favorable employer conditions? Yep. Do some of these illegal immigrants help us with population expansion which is critical for economic growth (See Europe)? You better believe it. Do illegal immigrants bring in added sales tax revenues? You betcha.

 

What the future of the conservative movement needs is more inclusiveness. From a social standpoint, alot of these latinos are very socially conservative, they can be brought under the tent, but if you alienate them, make them feel like they are a bunch of wetback fence hopping drug pushers that create economic chaos, then they will run over to the Liberals. And do you blame them?

 

So the solution involves inclusivity, protection of borders and integrating them into our society through legal means. Which of course would add more tax revenues.

 

That's the solution.

 

How do you integrate such a large influx? There are jobs out there the these immigrants will do that many Americans won't (this is a whole different discussion) but not enough as to provide jobs for all of them. What ends up happening to those that don't find work? I'll tell you. They rely on the already overburdened system or resort to crime to pay the bills. I would love to see what the unemployment rate is among certain neighborhoods of Southern CA and Arizona.

[DC Tom]

How do you integrate such a large influx? There are jobs out there the these immigrants will do that many Americans won't (this is a whole different discussion) but not enough as to provide jobs for all of them. What ends up happening to those that don't find work? I'll tell you. They rely on the already overburdened system or resort to crime to pay the bills. I would love to see what the unemployment rate is among certain neighborhoods of Southern CA and Arizona.

 

Integrate? Integration is discriminatory. We all have to learn Spanish.

[Chef Jim]

Integrate? Integration is discriminatory. We all have to learn Spanish.

 

You know that was true working in restaurants in soCal. I had to learn Spanish to communicate with some of my staff. I had a dishwasher that had been the US almost as long as I had been alive (I was almost 40 and the time) and he barely spoke any English.

[Magox]

How do you integrate such a large influx? There are jobs out there the these immigrants will do that many Americans won't (this is a whole different discussion) but not enough as to provide jobs for all of them. What ends up happening to those that don't find work? I'll tell you. They rely on the already overburdened system or resort to crime to pay the bills. I would love to see what the unemployment rate is among certain neighborhoods of Southern CA and Arizona.

Simply put, by allowing a higher percentage of them a pathway to citizenship. I think most of us can agree that citizens obviously have advantages for gainful employment over illegal aliens. Therefore they aren't in a position to contribute to society as much as legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are hamstrung in the jobs they can perform, for obvious reasons. Which is why they mainly work in menial sorts of labor, such as cook assistants, dishwashers, agriculture etc.

 

Allowing a gateway to citizenship, such as serving in the military and allowing the children of certain illegal aliens to attend college is a productive way of integrating such illegals into our society so that they can become even more productive.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Magox

[Chef Jim]

Simply put, by allowing a higher percentage of them a pathway to citizenship. I think most of us can agree that citizens obviously have advantages for gainful employment over illegal aliens. Therefore they aren't in a position to contribute to society as much as legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are hamstrung in the jobs they can perform, for obvious reasons. Which is why they mainly work in menial sorts of labor, such as cook assistants, dishwashers, agriculture etc.

 

Allowing a gateway to citizenship, such as serving in the military and allowing the children of certain illegal aliens to attend college is a productive way of integrating such illegals into our society so that they can become even more productive.

 

So we wave a wand over these illegal's heads and poof the jobs will appear? WTF?? Sure there are people here illegally that are skilled (I've had a doctor as a cook) but for the most part the ones coming over are the unskilled laborers that have very little qualifications other that cooking, washing, cleaning, picking etc. Making them a citizen will not all of a sudden make them skilled labor. So the main reason they're standing around Home Depot isn't because they're illegal. They're standing around Home Depot because they're illegal and unskilled.

[Magox]

So we wave a wand over these illegal's heads and poof the jobs will appear? WTF?? Sure there are people here illegally that are skilled (I've had a doctor as a cook) but for the most part the ones coming over are the unskilled laborers that have very little qualifications other that cooking, washing, cleaning, picking etc. Making them a citizen will not all of a sudden make them skilled labor. So the main reason they're standing around Home Depot isn't because they're illegal. They're standing around Home Depot because they're illegal and unskilled.

Did I say that? Did you read a !@#$ing word that I just typed? Or did you just pull that out of your ass? I'm gonna go with the latter.

 

I SAID allowing them to serve in the military and going to college. THAT'S WHAT I SAID! Now if you want to equate going to college and serving in the military as "waving a wand" and voilaaaa jobs appear, well then thats your problem.

[Chef Jim]

Did I say that? Did you read a !@#$ing word that I just typed? Or did you just pull that out of your ass? I'm gonna go with the latter.

 

I SAID allowing them to serve in the military and going to college. THAT'S WHAT I SAID! Now if you want to equate going to college and serving in the military as "waving a wand" and voilaaaa jobs appear, well then thats your problem.

 

My point is we already have an incredibly high unemployement rate in the country and I don't think illegals are counted in those numbers. By making them legal you make it easier for them to get public assistance. And if they can't find work who is going to pay their bills? Joe taxpayer. Just because you give them a college education and a stint in the military does not mean they will find work. Ask any recent college grad or someone returning from a tour in Iraq.

 

Let me ask you a question. Is there already a gateway to citizenship in this country??

Edited February 27, 2012 by Chef Jim

[IDBillzFan]

Allowing a gateway to citizenship, such as serving in the military and allowing the children of certain illegal aliens to attend college is a productive way of integrating such illegals into our society so that they can become even more productive.

That's something like Step #39. In the meantime, Step #1 is lock down the border, followed by pushing E-verify followed by cracking down hard on anyone hiring illegal immigrants. (Funny how we'll invade your guitar business if you're using illegal wood, but not if you're using illegal workers. Wonder why that is?)

 

I'm sure there are other steps that have to happen even between those, but if you don't shut down the flow of illegals into our country, then your steps above are simply incentives for more people to come here illegally. And believe me, live in California for a while and you'll puke when you see all the incentives we offer.

[Magox]

That's something like Step #39. In the meantime, Step #1 is lock down the border, followed by pushing E-verify followed by cracking down hard on anyone hiring illegal immigrants. (Funny how we'll invade your guitar business if you're using illegal wood, but not if you're using illegal workers. Wonder why that is?)

 

I'm sure there are other steps that have to happen even between those, but if you don't shut down the flow of illegals into our country, then your steps above are simply incentives for more people to come here illegally. And believe me, live in California for a while and you'll puke when you see all the incentives we offer.

I think that having a comprehensive immigration bill that includes these pathways to citizenship that I mentioned along with more protection at the border can both be done simultaneously.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Magox

[DC Tom]

I think that having a comprehensive immigration bill that includes these pathways to citizenship that I mentioned along with more protection at the border can both be done simultaneously.

 

Kind-of like what Bush suggested.

 

Except when he did it, it was discriminatory, because he's a Republican.

[IDBillzFan]

I think that having a comprehensive immigration bill that includes these pathways to citizenship that I mentioned along with more protection at the border can both be done simultaneously.

Yes, with the understanding that there ARE NO PATHWAYS to citizenship until mutually agreed upon milestones for border protection are accomplished first. This is precisely the kind of BS that liberals will work to mess with...delay border protection, expedite pathways to citizenship, increase the voting block.

 

Protect first, pathways fifth.

[Magox]

Yes, with the understanding that there ARE NO PATHWAYS to citizenship until mutually agreed upon milestones for border protection are accomplished first. This is precisely the kind of BS that liberals will work to mess with...delay border protection, expedite pathways to citizenship, increase the voting block.

 

Protect first, pathways fifth.

I'm not going to get into the complexities of it, but the idea that so and so has to happen first is a bunch of bull ****!

 

I will tell you this, what stopped Bush from being able to make this happen was the hardcore anti immigrant wing of his own party and the cynical political calculation of the liberals knowing this fact and using it to their benefit.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Magox