EasternOHBillsFan Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 ESPN has their head up their asses. Not saying that fans are the best barometer, but the majority of fanbases that need WR help have Stevie on their short list. The real question is, what happens when the Bills foolishly let Stevie walk, and Vincent Jackson laughs at our offer and goes to another team? In your opinion it is foolish. Letting him go and getting Vincent Jackson is an automatic major upgrade.
section122 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Sure, I'll answer and play along. Your problem is using absolute values as an argument when football we all know is about games and what you do in games. So as valuable as the argument is over absolute stats, it has major flaws. The first and most obvious is your homerism and only using the last two seasons because that's all Stevie has of value. That does two things, it makes his stats look better than Jackson, who held out last year but it also discounts his stats prior to that, which is convenient to your argument. In statistics we call that cherry picking, which means it sucks. When you look at averages, you get a better idea of the player and in the case of Jackson, he might not have the catches (because SD has had other weapons to spread the ball around like Gates and Tomlinson) which validates Stevie does more with less let alone a less competent qb but his career YPC is 4.5 yards higher. Stevie's TD rate is slightly higher but the sample size (games played) is lower meaning the results aren't as valid as a larger sample size, which would be Jackson's games played. All that aside, if you want to cherry pick. Jackson AND Wallace had more yards, more TDs, and a better YPC this past year that Stevie, on LESS catches, which shouldn't be a knock on them but proof they're better. More production out of less catches, how is that bad again? In a league based on production with the last season the best predictor of success next season (you don't estimate tomorrow by what happened 5 years ago as much as what happened 5 days ago)so why do you want to compare careers vs the last two years? , Jackson AND Wallace are both better and the guys making the decisions and signing the checks will valiudate that by giving them better, bigger contracts than Stevie. Vincent Jackson sat out last year on his own free will. He was able to play in those games and chose not too. Its not cherry picking stats its comparing a two year period (which is all stevie has to go on). Stevie had a worse qb and worse supporting cast but put up just as good numbers. If you would like I will "cherry pick" VJ's two best years (2009 and 2011) and I come up with averages of 64 catches 1137 yards and 9 tds. I don't understand why fans want to dump Stevie to pay more for this guy. As for the ypc argument you do realize that they are different types of receivers right? A wr is not just a wr. Some are "possession" and some are "speed" receivers. Speed receivers by nature will have more ypc and possession more catches. Which is exactly what plays out here. Again I don't understand how VJ is so much better than Stevie and clearly a #1 when Stevie supposedly is not (according to the fans here). Stevie has already played in Buffalo and supposedly has a love for this city. I don't understand the want to try for someone else other than this being a grass is greener situation for fans.
Ramius Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 In your opinion it is foolish. Letting him go and getting Vincent Jackson is an automatic major upgrade. Where is it guaranteed that V-Jax will sign with us? If you let Stevie walk, you're running the risk of heading into the draft with David Nelson and Garbage Jones as our 2 starting WRs, with a 3rd WR (Easley) who hasn't taken an NFL snap in his 2-year career.
DrDawkinstein Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Where is it guaranteed that V-Jax will sign with us? If you let Stevie walk, you're running the risk of heading into the draft with David Nelson and Garbage Jones as our 2 starting WRs, with a 3rd WR (Easley) who hasn't taken an NFL snap in his 2-year career. In all fairness, it is NOT completely up to the Bills whether Stevie re-signs or not. I mean, I guess they could offer him $12mil/year and get it done, but is that really something they should do?
NastyMan Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 The sad thing is we let Stevie walk, he signs with the Patriots and they own the division for another 10 years, because lets face it Stevie is the only reciever in the league that owns Revies from the Jets, and the Pats build their teams to win the division first then see what happens in the playoffs. That is what we need to do. Not compare Stevie to the other recievers in the league but compare him to our divisional foes and go from there. I really think we are going to sign him because you can't count on VJ or someone else coming here and I think the office knows everyone in Western New York and Bills fans everywhere are tired of starting over. Pay the man and let's move on please.
section122 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 The sad thing is we let Stevie walk, he signs with the Patriots and they own the division for another 10 years, because lets face it Stevie is the only reciever in the league that owns Revies from the Jets, and the Pats build their teams to win the division first then see what happens in the playoffs. That is what we need to do. Not compare Stevie to the other recievers in the league but compare him to our divisional foes and go from there. I really think we are going to sign him because you can't count on VJ or someone else coming here and I think the office knows everyone in Western New York and Bills fans everywhere are tired of starting over. Pay the man and let's move on please. some food for thought http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors/_/date/20120220#14121 says basically all of the same things you put in your post. I would absolutely be sick to my stomach if this happened.
DrDawkinstein Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 The sad thing is we let Stevie walk, he signs with the Patriots and they own the division for another 10 years, because lets face it Stevie is the only reciever in the league that owns Revies from the Jets, and the Pats build their teams to win the division first then see what happens in the playoffs. That is what we need to do. Not compare Stevie to the other recievers in the league but compare him to our divisional foes and go from there. I really think we are going to sign him because you can't count on VJ or someone else coming here and I think the office knows everyone in Western New York and Bills fans everywhere are tired of starting over. Agreed with everything here. But... Pay the man and let's move on please. THIS is the issue. Obviously the Bills want to pay him, since they have been making offers. But the question is, Pay the man WHAT exactly? Where do you draw the line? Are you saying "Pay him whatever he is asking for"? What if it is currently $9mil/year?
3rdand12 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 If we let stevie go regardless of price we have next to nothing to put on the field but hope. Hope that we can bring some others in and hope that our current stock of unproven receivers and going to improve significantly this year. We are in a difficult situation indeed. His agent, if he is wise knows this. We might gain leverage if we get a respectable free agent pick up before stevie tests the market. To get a big name to come here we will be paying out our chooch. Lets just get stevie done and move on to defense. please!
stony Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Agreed with everything here. But... THIS is the issue. Obviously the Bills want to pay him, since they have been making offers. But the question is, Pay the man WHAT exactly? Where do you draw the line? Are you saying "Pay him whatever he is asking for"? What if it is currently $9mil/year? It has to get done. This might be a situation where we have to overpay for one of our own. I don't think it'll be 9mil that gets it done, but if signed, the final price will be closer to Stevie's offer than the Bills IMO.
Dorkington Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 What a surprise. Lose another good player. I'm sure we'll try to replace him with an UDFA and claim we are better.
EldaBillsFan Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Its crazy to want to get rid of a wr that has great chemistry with a qb...to bring in another wr to replace the wr you lost...and hope they can emake a similar or bigger impact
thewildrabbit Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 I can sorta understand the balking over Stevie if he is asking for 10 mill. All those drops and in big games, several of which the bills win "IF" he held on to it. Then considering all those pass attempts by this Bills team the last two years. I gotta wonder why Johnson doesn't have more receptions. Wes Welker 122 rec & Gronkowski had 90. Stevie Johnson had 76 receptions , David Nelson had 61. Anyway Vincent Jackson fits the profile of what Nix has stated he is looking for in a #1 WR 6'5'' 230, but then Johnson had the better year last year
NoSaint Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 In all fairness, it is NOT completely up to the Bills whether Stevie re-signs or not. I mean, I guess they could offer him $12mil/year and get it done, but is that really something they should do? Further I'll add they should probably have a very good read on others interest before free agency and how desperate they should be. I know its tampering but that "other guy" should be figured out before letting Stevie walk Its crazy to want to get rid of a wr that has great chemistry with a qb...to bring in another wr to replace the wr you lost...and hope they can emake a similar or bigger impact Is the chemistry great or are we that used to poor that it seems more noteworthy. How many games left us arguing whether it was Stevie or fitzs fault? Whether it was missed passes or dropped balls? Even the two giants picks- great chemistry?
NastyMan Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 It has to get done. This might be a situation where we have to overpay for one of our own. I don't think it'll be 9mil that gets it done, but if signed, the final price will be closer to Stevie's offer than the Bills IMO. I agree, not 9M a year just move within a million of what he wants or pay him up front and let the amount of money decrease in years played.
EldaBillsFan Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 If we lose Johnson that means we are not serious about winning and signing Fitz was pointless Further I'll add they should probably have a very good read on others interest before free agency and how desperate they should be. I know its tampering but that "other guy" should be figured out before letting Stevie walk Is the chemistry great or are we that used to poor that it seems more noteworthy. How many games left us arguing whether it was Stevie or fitzs fault? Whether it was missed passes or dropped balls? Even the two giants picks- great chemistry? Only their second year together....and chemistry doesn't mean mistakes won't happen.....they both were on their way to record seasons until injuries hit....injuries were thr turning point in the season
Bill from NYC Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Where is it guaranteed that V-Jax will sign with us? If you let Stevie walk, you're running the risk of heading into the draft with David Nelson and Garbage Jones as our 2 starting WRs, with a 3rd WR (Easley) who hasn't taken an NFL snap in his 2-year career. Remember Mr. Wilson's comment about Fitz "needing receivers?" He is seemingly not impressed enough to even franchise SJ if this article is true. You and I predicted a long time ago that the Bills would use the first round pick this year on a wide receiver as I recall. It's making sense now, no? Perhaps this situation will serve as food for thought for those who doubt that Mr. Wilson, even at his age, really does get involved with first round selections.
ThurmasThoman Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) If we lose Johnson that means we are not serious about winning and signing Fitz was pointless Only their second year together....and chemistry doesn't mean mistakes won't happen.....they both were on their way to record seasons until injuries hit....injuries were thr turning point in the season this. every year, certain "talking points" emerge in the discourse surrounding the NFL, and this year, it has been "injuries are not an excuse." i do not know who started this (my best guess is jim rome-he's the first person i heard bring this up, and it's certainly been repeated since then) but now that phrase has taken on a life of it's own, to the point that it has become a given. hardly worth discussing. "you can't use injuries as an excuse, look at the _________ " "this is a next man up league, so don't use injuries as an excuse." and on and on. its all gabage. the buffalo bills started the season 5-2, beat the afc conference champions at home, and lost to the eventual league champions on the road in the final minutes of a close game. following injuries to our: quarterback, running back, oline, wideouts, linebackers, dline, kicker and secondary, we began to fall apart, and missed the playoffs. these injuries are partly bad luck, but partly due to the fact that there was no offseason conditioning, there was no training camp, there were no mini camps. pessimistic bills fans will counter with: "good teams find ways to win in situations like that." i will counter with this: that was one of the worst seasons of professional football i have ever seen in my life. the patriots won our conference after beating denver in the divisional round by 30 points--a denver team we had beaten at home 3 weeks earlier by the same margin. they won our conference by beating baltimore in the championship game after baltimore dropped the game winning touchdown and shanked the game tying, 20 yard field goal. they won our conference despite baltimore being the only team all season they beat with a winning record. baltimore was only playing in that game because THEY barely beat houston's third string quarterback at home. a houston team that got to face cincinnati's rookie qb in round one. and in the national conference, you have the 9-7, super bowl champion new york giants. a team that had to beat the cowboys in week 17 just to get into the playoffs. quality of play across the league was down all year, it wasn't even a war of attrition. it was simply: one team is going to win the superbowl, who is it. how far, really, are the bills from these groups of teams? from a super bowl champion 9-7 giants team? from a can't beat a team with a winning record, hell, can't even beat the buffalo bills new england patriots team? from a divisional round denver broncos team? we're close. and injuries prevented us from clearing that hurdle this year. but next year? we absolutely should expect the best from this team. but that comes with a caveat: resiging our BEST offensive weapon. is the market for wide receivers too pricey? i dont care. you don't buy all the ingredients to make a cake, then complain about sugar prices and tell your kid he's getting dinner rolls for his birthday party instead. we got a coach that loves slants, curls and screens. we got a qb that can't throw it further than 10 yards in a dome, and we got an oline that looks great when the ball is thrown in 2 seconds or less. we NEED a young, fast, strong, durable wideout that knows where the first down marker is and can get there every time. that knows what fitzs limitations are and can adjust his route accordingly. people want a "true" number 1? that's great, but if you're picturing fitz hitting vincent jackson in stride on a beatufiul 50 yard go pattern, i think you should be picturing vince young or jamarcus russel throwing that pass, because that simply isn't how our offense works, or is capable of working. bottom line - resign stevie, make the playoffs. Edited February 21, 2012 by JohnnyGold
All_Pro_Bills Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 you have the 9-7, super bowl champion new york giants. a team that had to beat the cowboys in week 17 just to get into the playoffs. but that comes with a caveat: resiging our BEST offensive weapon. is the market for wide receivers too pricey? i dont care. you don't buy all the ingredients to make a cake, then complain about sugar prices and tell your kid he's getting dinner rolls for his birthday party instead. bottom line - resign stevie, make the playoffs. The Giants allowed more points 394 vs 400 than they scored during the season. I believe the only Super Bowl winner (or contestant) to ever do that. If the Bills had an abundance of talent at the WR position resigning Johnson would not be so important. But given the lack of playmakers at the position, losing the only WR on the roster with decent numbers would be foolish. They might need to overpay but that's what you get for waiting too long to get serious about contract negotiations and then having to deal from a position of weakness with each day that brings them closer to the start of free agency. You don't get better by letting good players go and creating more 'needs' to fill. You get better by filling needs before they appear by grooming back ups with starter potential and not letting players walk until you have a backup plan in place. Close the gap in the contract numbers and get it done.
NoSaint Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 If we lose Johnson that means we are not serious about winning and signing Fitz was pointless Only their second year together....and chemistry doesn't mean mistakes won't happen.....they both were on their way to record seasons until injuries hit....injuries were thr turning point in the season I agree injuries are big but.... At times Stevie didn't even seem to like fitz. Gailey benched Stevie in the last game. I question if behind the scenes if the 3 got along as well as portrayed at times. That said dudes could hate each other and play well, but even that was spotty, especially in clutch moments. I still say pay Stevie but I'm not going to say he's irreplaceable
Just in Atlanta Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwEIjbfOHD0
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