Tackling the "we need a LT" myth

[D2K]

Dude QBs that hold on to the ball get pressures and sacks not a guy with the quickest get out like Fitz. That can account for all of his pressures not his line that can't hold up for a long time. Where is your proof of Eli getting rid of the ball the fastest? I have provide a link that Matt Hasselbeck gets rid of it in 2.36 seconds. That same article says that Fitz and the Bills are the fastest. You do the math.

 

As far as offensive lineman playing together a long time. It's a thing called CHEMISTRY. You know the thing that makes a offensive line a cohesive unit. You can't dismiss that. Again the same coaching and system this creates CONTINUITY. You can't dismiss that. Look at the defense the guy has on the other side of the ball that when healthy can keep the Giants in any game! Look at his WR core compared to our wild cat QB, a RB and cast offs that we have had to start throughout the year. Where are your concrete facts that are not in anyway effected by a multitude of factors? Is the line to blame for a QB that holds on to the ball to long? Again. No factual stats to back up your claims.

 

Where do I even start with this trainwreck of a post?

 

You provided a link from NOVEMBER 11th of 2011, that is hardly definitive proof of ANYTHING. Then when I addressed that the article was from NOVEMBER 11th and was nothing more then a QBR assessment (which QBR was developed this year by the likes of Trent Dilfer, excuse me for not taking an ESPN generated ratings system seriously, you should do the same) you had NO argument after that point was made. NO one cares what Hasselbeck or Fitz did in October, neither one of them FINSIHED in the top 10 at ANYTHING, neither of their teams made the playoffs, neither of them were Pro Bowlers, neither of them are sure-fire locks at their position moving forward. Furthermore, QB's like FItz are capable of having stretches of 4-5 games where they play admirably, but when you look at a COMPLETE seasons worth of statistics and the guy is near the bottom in EVERY SIGNIFICANT QB related stat that tells the entire story. Not chapters 1 and 2 which you seem to be fervently clinging to. To think that article holds any credence whatsoever is absolutely laughable.

 

I can dismiss "chemistry and continuity" rather easily. This isnt 1987 anymore where teams are able to mold and gel into elite units, b/c of FA, and the fact that rookies are more so ready then ever right out of college. Dareus for example and Barnett as well, Shep, had NEVER played a single snap together and still they managed seasons worthy of recognition. I could give you countless other examples of the same being true. Cam Newton/Steve SMith, Andy Dalton/Aj green etc etc etc. ad nauseum.

 

Again, just waiting on a good point from you.

[thewildrabbit]

Just an annoying useless post as others have made complementing one poster while really making a backhanded stab at another. Thought I would join in on the fun. You completely missed his point of a "gelled" offensive line as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

Keep ignoring all the other problems and focus on one guy. I'm sure the Bills thank you for your support. Keep harping on players that are actually good enough instead of focusing on the guys that aren't. Maybe we can run Fitz out of town and let some other QB with a slow release and no balls get killed behind this line. Perhaps you would prefer another Edwards? We saw how he wasn't up to the task behind that line. We also saw how the line looked when Thigpen got in there for a while. Now THAT was not starting QB play.

 

Keep obsessing about the wrong guy. I can't WAIT until football starts. I wonder what your excuse will be if we can keep people healthy especially at WR and Fitz comes out gunning again. I look forward to continuing this conversation when the bullets start flying and look forward to your excuses for explaining away Fitz's expected success. Hopefully you won't change your screen name or stop posting by then. This going to be fun!

This guy kinda reminds me of " Paintmyhouse" and his hellbent crusade against Fitz last offseason.

 

Never mind the fact that the same place where he gets all his stats and facts from (pro football focus) states that Fitz is the 8th best QB in the league in avoiding sacks

[PDaDdy]

I like how you ignore a lot of what I said and focus on just the Giants O line and Eli Manning and his supposed ability to get the ball out faster then any other NFL QB.

 

OK Well, lets talk about this supposed fact that Eli Manning gets the ball out faster then any other QB in the NFL. Are you referring to his release or his ability to find the open receiver and get him the ball once the ball is snapped? Manning might get more pressures simply because his game plans call for him to take deeper drops, like way more 5-7 step drops then the Bills utilize.

 

Now I won't argue that Fitz isn't that quick in his delivery. Even Trent Edwards was timed by ESPN as one of the fastest QB's in the NFL at getting the ball out once he started the throwing motion. Now we all know the difference between Fitz and captain check-down. Ryan Fitzpatrick has an uncanny ability to find the open receiver and get him the ball in about 3 seconds or under. If you don't believe me ....will you believe NY Giants DE Osi Umenyiora when he stated such in an article by ex Giant Chris Canty

 

""The Giants' pass rush won't necessarily surrender Sunday, but it will change tactics. Big Blue has piled up 11 sacks since Umenyiora's Week 4 return, but isn't likely to get many against Buffalo. On average, Fitzpatrick fires the ball just 1.5 seconds after taking the snap, Umenyiora said. On set plays," Umenyiora said, "nobody can get to him."

Here is a link to an article by ESPN, and note that it was written when Eric Wood / Dem Bell were still healthy .. QB

The team that takes the shortest amount of time to throw is the Buffalo Bills. Fitzpatrick, also a top-10 quarterback according to Total QBR, has to get the ball out so quickly because Buffalo's offensive line is the second-worst in the league at allowing pass pressure within three seconds in the pocket.

 

 

 

 

Long winded rant?.... I'm trying to point out to you how important the term "continuity" is and the difference between players that only play 7 games a season vs players that play 16 games year in and year out since they started. David Diehl primarily plays guard and was kicked out to LT when the injuries hit that Giants O line. Unlike the Bills, the Giants were able to pull it together and give Manning the time to make most of his throws. The Bills tried to move Levitre to LT and it was an unmitigated disaster and had to move him back to guard. Diehl OTOH stayed at LT and played well enough all the way thru the season and SB.

 

You are trying to state that the Bills don't need a LT, which is complete BS. Even if they retain Bell he is a "maybe player" compared to those NY Giant players that DON"T MISS GAMES! The rookie Hairston did a decent job considering he usually only had to hold his blocks for 3 seconds, but he needs more experience and also needs to stay healthy as he missed time last year due to injuries. Should the Bills decide not to re sign Bell then they are in deep poop because they need more stability and depth at LT then just Chris Hairston.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EXCELLENT post. Unfortunately it's just more FACTS...ACTUAL FACTS and player testimonials that will fall on deaf ears from someone who feels that the likes of us aren't capable of teaching them anything. I have to remember to save these types of links because it is actual proof that supports our common belief.

 

Sadly no matter how much information you throw out there some just won't accept it and continue to believe what they want to and look for obscure massaged data that attempts to support their opinion. It's their right and we waste too much time trying to lead the horse to water while they won't drink. Even with all of the crap Fitz had to go through including his own injury he was 17th in the league by the end of the year while top 5 the first 3rd of the year. That is middle of the road with very little talent to throw the ball to. Imagine what will happen if people get and stay healthy.

 

I can't wait until next year to see what these guys will have to say then. If Fitz comes out firing again it will truly be hilarious what these people will respond with then.

[K-9]

...You provided a link from NOVEMBER 11th of 2011, that is hardly definitive proof of ANYTHING. Then when I addressed that the article was from NOVEMBER 11th and was nothing more then a QBR assessment (which QBR was developed this year by the likes of Trent Dilfer, excuse me for not taking an ESPN generated ratings system seriously, you should do the same)

 

I'll preface this by saying I am leery of ALL statistics, especially when trying to quantify individual performance without the proper context. I think stats are fun and all but they only tell a fraction of the story. Again, because they lack context.

 

I'm just curious as to why you would thoroughly dismiss ESPN's statistics because Trent Dilfer may have had a hand in their creation and yet rely so much upon Pro Football Focus' analyses. If you're gonna dog ESPN for using Trent Dilfer as a source, shouldn't you give them credit for using Steve Young the same way? Are statistics generated with the input of actual former NFL players that played the QB position LESS reliable than those created by a small group of laymen who rely on their ability to watch TV broadcasts to compile their stats?

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited February 15, 2012 by K-9

[CodeMonkey]

If Fitz comes out firing again it will truly be hilarious what these people will respond with then.

At the beginning of the season they will say "remember how he started last year and how he crashed and burned".

If Fitz has a strong complete season, some will start to see him in a different light. But some still won't no matter what. Welcome to fan forums

[Bronc24]

I've been away for two days and, predictably, PDaD has done exactly what I said would happen in the second post of this thread. I saw a comparison to Cam Newton (really?) and the predictable excuses that everyone throws out all the time. Perhaps Fitz did indeed get the ball out quickly. I have not seen the data. I suppose when you are inaccurate beyond 15 yards, you are bound to throw the short routes more often.

 

The question I pose to all is this: do you ever see Fitz winning a ring as a starting QB? If the answer is no, then we require an upgrade. (if you answered yes, then your football knowledge is limited or you are just plain stupid)

 

Specifically to PDaD: I love the Bills, want them to win a SB and will be the first to state I was wrong if Fitz gets us to the playoffs or plays to that level for a season. I will also be the first to say, "I told you so" when he doesn't.

[DocLawless]

He really "pegged me"? His whole retort was the Giants Oline has starts together. When in fact they had their starting LT this year go on IR early. I dont equate an illogical argument to "pegging" somebody.

Actually he mentioned that two of the lineman have been voted to the pro bowl,one of them more than once. The bills have a combined zero pro bowls between any of the o-lineman. Here's where I'm at. There is an obvious consistency of "line play" (I quote that for a reason) throughout the entire 2011 season. Consistency being the pressure and sacks allowed throughout the season with a rotating group of lineman all year, which was as you say very low amounts. Even the best lines struggle when injuries hit and players have to rotate positions and backups have to start games which also disrupts the unity and rhythm of the line. thus pressure and sacks start to increase which didn't happen enough after the injuries hit to prove to me that the line was as responsible for the low amount of pressure and sacks as the offensive system, game plan, and Fitz release and quick decision making was. As for your link that says Eli manning got rid of the ball faster then Fitz we also have a link on this very thread which is espy supported that Fitz got rid of the ball quicker and all I heard from analysts all season was how quick Fitz got rid of the ball. I trust them over you. Also just so you know IMO if you like Eli manning so much you should become a giants fan don't you think? The way you talk to people on here doesn't sit well with me your rude and negative and you should of stayed at that bills bashed site if that's what you want to do here.

[DrDawkinstein]

Where do I even start with this trainwreck of a post?

You provided a link from NOVEMBER 11th of 2011, that is hardly definitive proof of ANYTHING. Then when I addressed that the article was from NOVEMBER 11th and was nothing more then a QBR assessment (which QBR was developed this year by the likes of Trent Dilfer, excuse me for not taking an ESPN generated ratings system seriously, you should do the same) you had NO argument after that point was made. NO one cares what Hasselbeck or Fitz did in October, neither one of them FINSIHED in the top 10 at ANYTHING, neither of their teams made the playoffs, neither of them were Pro Bowlers, neither of them are sure-fire locks at their position moving forward. Furthermore, QB's like FItz are capable of having stretches of 4-5 games where they play admirably, but when you look at a COMPLETE seasons worth of statistics and the guy is near the bottom in EVERY SIGNIFICANT QB related stat that tells the entire story. Not chapters 1 and 2 which you seem to be fervently clinging to. To think that article holds any credence whatsoever is absolutely laughable.

 

I can dismiss "chemistry and continuity" rather easily. This isnt 1987 anymore where teams are able to mold and gel into elite units, b/c of FA, and the fact that rookies are more so ready then ever right out of college. Dareus for example and Barnett as well, Shep, had NEVER played a single snap together and still they managed seasons worthy of recognition. I could give you countless other examples of the same being true. Cam Newton/Steve SMith, Andy Dalton/Aj green etc etc etc. ad nauseum.

 

Again, just waiting on a good point from you.

 

 

By Nov 11th, the Bills had already played in 8 games, so it definitely proves SOMETHING. It is a pretty good cross section of games to pull stats from. It's not like the article was written in September, based on pre-season.

 

I'll preface this by saying I am leery of ALL statistics, especially when trying to quantify individual performance without the proper context. I think stats are fun and all but they only tell a fraction of the story. Again, because they lack context.

 

I'm just curious as to why you would thoroughly dismiss ESPN's statistics because Trent Dilfer may have had a hand in their creation and yet rely so much upon Pro Football Focus' analyses. If you're gonna dog ESPN for using Trent Dilfer as a source, shouldn't you give them credit for using Steve Young the same way? Are statistics generated with the input of actual former NFL players that played the QB position LESS reliable than those created by a small group of laymen who rely on their ability to watch TV broadcasts to compile their stats?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

The main problem with both of their arguments (PD and D2K), is that they are trying to use stats and numbers to prove something that really needs to be seen.

 

You cant say whether it was Fitz that made the line look good, or the OL that made Fitz look good, just using numbers. We have to actually watch each snap and see if he was facing pressure when he threw it, or not.

 

And even though I have 11,000+ posts, even I dont have that kind of time. I do remember pockets consistently collapsing around him though...

[Bronc24]

Actually he mentioned that two of the lineman have been voted to the pro bowl,one of them more than once. The bills have a combined zero pro bowls between any of the o-lineman. Here's where I'm at. There is an obvious consistency of "line play" (I quote that for a reason) throughout the entire 2011 season. Consistency being the pressure and sacks allowed throughout the season with a rotating group of lineman all year, which was as you say very low amounts. Even the best lines struggle when injuries hit and players have to rotate positions and backups have to start games which also disrupts the unity and rhythm of the line. thus pressure and sacks start to increase which didn't happen enough after the injuries hit to prove to me that the line was as responsible for the low amount of pressure and sacks as the offensive system, game plan, and Fitz release and quick decision making was. As for your link that says Eli manning got rid of the ball faster then Fitz we also have a link on this very thread which is espy supported that Fitz got rid of the ball quicker and all I heard from analysts all season was how quick Fitz got rid of the ball. I trust them over you. Also just so you know IMO if you like Eli manning so much you should become a giants fan don't you think? The way you talk to people on here doesn't sit well with me your rude and negative and you should of stayed at that bills bashed site if that's what you want to do here.

 

So, by your logic, the fact I think Eli and Rodgers are great QBs I wish we had, I should be a Giants or Packers fan? That's a ridiculous statement. If you come on here and state an opinion, be prepared to defend it. If your feelings will be hurt by someone who disagrees with you, then I suggest you take YOUR thin skin and go elsewhere.

[K-9]

... The main problem with both of their arguments (PD and D2K), is that they are trying to use stats and numbers to prove something that really needs to be seen.

 

You cant say whether it was Fitz that made the line look good, or the OL that made Fitz look good, just using numbers. We have to actually watch each snap and see if he was facing pressure when he threw it, or not.

 

And even though I have 11,000+ posts, even I dont have that kind of time. I do remember pockets consistently collapsing around him though...

 

Seeing it is only half the battle. Especially when what we see is limited by what the networks can show us (and the guys from Pro Football Focus). But even if the viewing audience had the "full 22" view that coaches NEED to break it down, we would STILL be lacking the proper context of play call and assignment to make a fully informed decision on who screwed up and who didn't on every particular play. Some plays are rather obvious, most are not. And even coaches have to rewind the tape multiple times to be sure.

 

I'll just put it this way: would any player or agent demand a raise based on their Pro Football Focus rating at their position? Would any GM low ball a player for the same reason? Not a chance in hell.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[DocLawless]

So, by your logic, the fact I think Eli and Rodgers are great QBs I wish we had, I should be a Giants or Packers fan? That's a ridiculous statement. If you come on here and state an opinion, be prepared to defend it. If your feelings will be hurt by someone who disagrees with you, then I suggest you take YOUR thin skin and go elsewhere.

By my logic since you and d2k would rather sit here and argue about how bad our players are and how good other teams players are you should go be a fan of those teams cause you clearly aren't a good fan of this one. You Fitz haters get so old to listen to. The argument is over fear the beard ended it with his post with facts and quotes on page 7 of this thread. go hate bills players somewhere else. My skin is thick enough to deal with a 12 year playoff drought and not start hating on the organization and it's players how bout you?

[HuSeYiN1978]

As far as the Giants O-line goes, they have to be good enough to overcome an incompetent offensive coordinator.

 

 

You showed a lot more class with that answer than I would have- There is nothing wrong with that, it says something about you and your girlfriend that you would do that.

 

Thanx adam. But just to point something out. I'm not a very good talker. When I get upset I either hit the person or curse them out. So I really don't look at myself as someone having class. The only reason I didn't curse out that pdaddy dude is because I got an email from Beerball and another one from Just Jack saying that they're warning me about cursing and that I'm very close to being kicked off the site. So I guess classy is the way I gotta be because that dude is definitely not worth losing TBD for. I love it here...

[Bronc24]

By my logic since you and d2k would rather sit here and argue about how bad our players are and how good other teams players are you should go be a fan of those teams cause you clearly aren't a good fan of this one. You Fitz haters get so old to listen to. The argument is over fear the beard ended it with his post with facts and quotes on page 7 of this thread. go hate bills players somewhere else. My skin is thick enough to deal with a 12 year playoff drought and not start hating on the organization and it's players how bout you?

 

I don't "hate" Fitz and I certainly don't hate the Bills. I am sure Fitz is an awesome guy. I just billieve that the playoff drought will be extended to years 13 and 14 with him as our starter and I will continue to voice that opinion until I am proved wrong.

 

As for hating on the organization, I think 12 years without a playoff berth warrants questions about the way they are run and the decisions they make, don't you think? Your thought process is to clap your hands, say "go team" and accept the mediocrity that has permeated the organization. My thought process is to critique the team and its players When they consistently achieve at an unacceptable level.

 

As I have stated numerous times, I will be the first to praise Fitz if he puts together a playoff year. I just don't see it happening, no matter how much I would like to.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Marauder24

[RealityCheck]

Our o-line is a paper tiger. It appears that most fans feel that way at least. One thing that bothers me about the O-line regardless of statistics is that when I watch these guys block there is always at least 1 of them that gets blown up in a hurry. The few times I have seen Fitz actually sit in the pocket it usually does not end well. The O-line is clearly getting better, but I would not mistake that for being good. The fact that they can't stay healthy might be a result of being physically overmatched on a way too often basis. It's the difference in lifting between doing 3 sets of 10 with weight you can handle and doing 3 sets of 10 doing nothing but negatives. These guys always appear to be in over their heads physically. Whatever Fitz ultimately becomes is unknown, but outside of FJ it seems that everybody on offense is underachieving.

[CodeMonkey]

but outside of FJ it seems that everybody on offense is underachieving.

Oh man you have done it now. Queue the Spiller lovers, Fitz lovers, AND SJ lovers

Edited February 15, 2012 by CodeMonkey

[DrDawkinstein]

Oh man you have done it now. Queue the Spiller lovers, Fitz lovers, AND SJ lovers

 

Im sick of all these "lovers" of our team and players pretending to be fans. They need to "get real" and hate everything about the team like the rest of us!!

 

Ralph is cheap!! Doooomed!!

[D2K]

Actually he mentioned that two of the lineman have been voted to the pro bowl,one of them more than once. The bills have a combined zero pro bowls between any of the o-lineman. Here's where I'm at. There is an obvious consistency of "line play" (I quote that for a reason) throughout the entire 2011 season. Consistency being the pressure and sacks allowed throughout the season with a rotating group of lineman all year, which was as you say very low amounts. Even the best lines struggle when injuries hit and players have to rotate positions and backups have to start games which also disrupts the unity and rhythm of the line. thus pressure and sacks start to increase which didn't happen enough after the injuries hit to prove to me that the line was as responsible for the low amount of pressure and sacks as the offensive system, game plan, and Fitz release and quick decision making was. As for your link that says Eli manning got rid of the ball faster then Fitz we also have a link on this very thread which is espy supported that Fitz got rid of the ball quicker and all I heard from analysts all season was how quick Fitz got rid of the ball. I trust them over you. Also just so you know IMO if you like Eli manning so much you should become a giants fan don't you think? The way you talk to people on here doesn't sit well with me your rude and negative and you should of stayed at that bills bashed site if that's what you want to do here.

 

Im not gonna continue my debate on this topic anymore because I have made my arguments and stand behind them.

 

What I should address is the ending to your post. For that, I must apologize. I dont try to come off as "rude and negative" and I certainly dont want the moniker of "troll" or any other adjective that can be thrown together.

 

We are all Bills fans first and foremost, and I must admit that 12 solid years of bottom feeding becomes more then tiresome and eats at my overly passionate soul. Please accept my apology, and that is for ANYONE that I have offended.

[RkFast]

Threads that blame others for the shortcomings of the player at the actual position are always fun and amazing.

 

Poor LT play...its the QB's fault

 

Poor QB play...its the line's fault

 

Poor linebacker play...its the DTs fault

 

Poor head coach..its the coordinators fault

 

Poor hot dog quality....its Wise Potato Chip Company's fault

[Bronc24]

Im not gonna continue my debate on this topic anymore because I have made my arguments and stand behind them.

 

What I should address is the ending to your post. For that, I must apologize. I dont try to come off as "rude and negative" and I certainly dont want the moniker of "troll" or any other adjective that can be thrown together.

 

We are all Bills fans first and foremost, and I must admit that 12 solid years of bottom feeding becomes more then tiresome and eats at my overly passionate soul. Please accept my apology, and that is for ANYONE that I have offended.

 

Unwarranted apology, IMO, but classy nonetheless.

[Paup 1995MVP]

Appreciate it.

 

Let me ask you this: How much time does a QB need to go through his progressions and make the right read?

 

Eli Manning (who just on the Super Bowl mind you) led the league for the shortest time in the pocket at 3.8 seconds from snap to release. Again, his team jsut won the Super bowl.

 

Gaileys offense, hell the league in general is predicated on 3-5 step drops and YAC yardage, attacking the short and intermediate zones and having QB's who are capable of pin-point accuracy to run these offenses. Fitz accuracy is an abomination of epic proportions. He is completely reliant on his first read being his ONLY choice, which explains why he was the league leader in INTs.

 

You cant possibly think that this team can win anymore than 6 games with this guy at QB?

I agree with you my friend. Fitzie just does not have the physical tools to be a good starting QB in the NFL. His accuracy and arm strength are not NFL caliber. It is as simple as that. He has grit and smarts. But that does not beat good NFL defenses, and will not beat mediocre defenses a lot of the time as well.

 

I agree that our O line was very solid last year. Easily good enuf to make the playoffs, even with the injuries. Our defense needs work, certainly at pass rush. But Fitzie will need to be a whole lot better if this team is going to contend for the playoffs.