Tackling the "we need a LT" myth

[McBeane]

I sincerely hope that you enjoy my posts and I hope to have lengthy, knowledgable debates.

 

You sure have nailed the lengthy part, knowledgeable.... well that's up for debate

[K-9]

Sounds like you are debating chicken or the egg while your own statements actually confirm that franchise QBs put up numbers. Therefore NUMBERS can be used to define a criteria for what a franchise QB is. The problem all the haters have is that if they define what that statistical success is that franchise QBs produce that some QBs might meet or exceed those numbers that aren't franchise QBs in their opinion.

 

As stated, that is the problem with qualitative assessments there is no winning the argument. There is no end to the debate. Once someone has the balls to put numbers to franchise performance they have to accept that some guys they don't think are franchise really are and some guys they think are franchise really aren't. Only providing biased qualitative evaluations without also providing quantitative evaluations are useless. It's like debating good art vs bad art. It's all in the eye of the beholder and everyone's opinion is of equal value.

 

It's not a chicken/egg thing at all. The great QB comes first, the great numbers come second. But as I've been trying to say, it's about a LOT more than the numbers.

 

Anyway, if you are now saying that franchise QBs put up the numbers, then you shouldn't have any problem defining one. Or are you just daring the haters (as you call them) to do it for you?

 

BTW, I don't hate Fitz. Not at all. I just think he's limited physically.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PDaDdy]

D2K...please tell me you haven't given up on this thread. I would really love to hear your response to the ESPN article that says that the Bills (Fitz) gets rid of the ball the fastest in the league which must be faster than the 2.36 second average Matt Hasselbeck has!!! I also seem to recall that the measuring stick for a good pass blocking o-line was about 3 seconds. I wonder how you think we stack up against that?

[Adam]

Adam, you may be a nice guy, but this is what I hate about this board sometimes. So Chris Hairston gets taken in the 4th round. All the size you'd ever want. Steps in as a rookie and performs very, very admirably at both tackle positions, yet you in your infinite wisdom have already decided that he's "not good enough." AHHHHHHH!

Hairston has a chance to be a starting caliber right tackle- we can't keep moving him around though- or he won't have a shot at being good enough.

[PDaDdy]

It's not a chicken/egg thing at all. The great QB comes first, the great numbers come second. But as I've been trying to say, it's about a LOT more than the numbers.

 

Anyway, if you are now saying that franchise QBs put up the numbers, then you shouldn't have any problem defining one. Or are you just daring the haters (as you call them) to do it for you?

 

BTW, I don't hate Fitz. Not at all. I just think he's limited physically.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I am daring people to do it. If people are going to make accusations or make a legal argument the burden of proof is on the prosecution. I don't hate Fitz and think he is more than good enough. Those that don't should bare the burden of proof to show that he isn't. Show me facts not "I don't like the cut of his jib" or "how he looks" or the ever dreaded "eyeball test".

 

How did the eyeball test work looking at Cam Netwon? Some of the people on this board claimed they would stop being fans if we drafted that no talent loser. Well....lookie lookie with their eyeball test. He is statistically the best rookie QB EVER and that doesn't even include his rushing yards and TDs.

 

I'm trying to wake people up and open their eyes to see the STATS and a QBs performance not their own bias. I also throw in qualitative assessments and stats regarding the talent around him that negatively impacts him. I point to the first 5,6,7 weeks of this year when what little talent we have was healthy and how he was leading the league. How people can ignore that performance with their qualitative eye ball test is beyond me.

 

I expect that Fitz will start looking like that guy that started the year when people around him including himself get health.

[bananathumb]

Where was Schitz against Cinci and the Jets WHEN IT COUNTED? c'MON...ANSWER.

[HuSeYiN1978]

Uh still didn't answer my question. Define a starting, franchise and or elite QB.

 

 

 

Oh good god. You two should keep that kind of talk for the bedroom. Unbelievable, another whiny Fitz hater agrees with another yet they can provide no criteria to define what a franchise QB is? SHOCKING!!!

 

First off don't ever in your life question my manhood before I start talking bout family members up in here... You always get upset when someone disagrees with you dude. You need a hug. Im bout to take my daughter and my girlfriend out for Valentine's. Try and do the same. Maybe also drink some milk. If you're lactose intolerant try soymilk. Don't forget the hug though.

 

Where was Schitz against Cinci and the Jets WHEN IT COUNTED? c'MON...ANSWER.

 

Also don't forget the giant game...

Edited February 15, 2012 by HuSeYiN1978

[PDaDdy]

Where was Schitz against Cinci and the Jets WHEN IT COUNTED? c'MON...ANSWER.

 

Fitz played a solid game against what was the #1 ranked defense for much of the year. No turnovers completing passes to 8 different receivers. That was the infamous game Buddy Nix was referring to that our defense made a rookie look like an all pro.

 

Against the Jets with a helping hand from SJ and one of his ill timed TD drops we lost another one. Lets not forget we just lost Parrish who was a big part of our first 3 games in his new role. Not a great game by Fitz and more importantly a bad game for THE TEAM.

 

I don't see the value in pointing out a bad game here or there. How did superbowl winning QB Eli Manning look in the Giants several game slide before backing into the play offs at 9 - 7? How did Tom Brady look against the Ravens and the Giants in the Pats last two games of the season? Guess they aren't franchise QBs because they had a couple bad games.

 

First off don't ever in your life question my manhood before I start talking bout family members up in here... You always get upset when someone disagrees with you dude. You need a hug. Im bout to take my daughter and my girlfriend out for Valentine's. Try and do the same. Maybe also drink some milk. If you're lactose intolerant try soymilk. Don't forget the hug though.

 

 

 

Also don't forget the giant game...

 

Hey man you are the one swinging from D2k's junk not me. You're taking your daughter AND your girlfriend out for Valentines Day?

Edited February 15, 2012 by PDaDdy

[D2K]

::Sees most of the debate is between D2K and PDaddy::

 

"Hey D2K, how do you feel about Jason Peters?"

 

::Runs from thread!::

 

Runs from thread? What? I just got off of work and had to commute home, no one is shying away from debate. Pdaddy hasnt made one legit point that I have countered so not sure what you are talking about?

 

As far as Peters, I would compare Bell to Peters. Both extremely athletic, agile, quick feet, and are capable of being maulers. Mental lapses from time to time, but not enough of a worry to constitute looking to replace. Need I go on?

[PDaDdy]

Runs from thread? What? I just got off of work and had to commute home, no one is shying away from debate. Pdaddy hasnt made one legit point that I have countered so not sure what you are talking about?

 

As far as Peters, I would compare Bell to Peters. Both extremely athletic, agile, quick feet, and are capable of being maulers. Mental lapses from time to time, but not enough of a worry to constitute looking to replace. Need I go on?

 

AH ....glad you're back. He was actually poking fun at me trying to get me on a Jason Peters rant but you are in full defense mode I see. SOOOOO... why don't you take a look at post #93 and check out this link and then muse on the effectiveness of our awesome offensive line.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/30493/line-of-scrimmage-key-to-qb-play-winning

Edited February 15, 2012 by PDaDdy

[D2K]

AH ....glad your back. He was actually poking fun at me trying to get me on a Jason Peters rant but you are in full defense mode I see. SOOOOO... why don't you take a look at post #93 and check out this link and then muse on the effectiveness of our awesome offensive line.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/30493/line-of-scrimmage-key-to-qb-play-winning

 

I have already responded to this assinine point you were trying to make. Dont know where my reply went but I will reiterate.

 

You posted an article from November 11th by an author that is doing nothing more than projecting stats. Its a pathetic attempt to prove a point that isnt valid in the first place. An article that is written strictly on the premise of QBR (a made up stat generated by ESPN, and is put together by the likes of Trent Dilfer). Come on dude, that isnt gonna fly with me.

 

I also think its funny that you fail to mention where Fitz FINISHED in QBR. Let me help you...17th.

 

I have seen you go on some insane rant about "defining a "franchise QB" and some how come up with Fitz matching whatever it is YOUR criteria suggests. You ask everyone to define "franchise QB" yet you have nothing to quantify your definition. What planet do you live on that FItz is a Franchise QB? You actually think that a 59 million dollar contract, which the Bills lined with out-clauses, is a "franchise QB" contract? Come on dude, thats a middle of the road contract, that was nowhere near the dollar amount that he deserved. Kolb and Cassel got the same kind of deals, and neither one of them is the sure-fire starter going into next season.

 

I am still waiting for you to make a valid point. Regardless, I have about 20 minutes left before I am off for the night, considering its Valentines day and NO MB on the planet is better than love making, hah, I probably shouldnt have went there. If you want to continue this debate i will be back at this tomorrow. 20 minutes, respond quickly.

 

http://nyjetscap.com/2011_Efficiency/valueprice.php - for your viewing pleasure.

Edited February 15, 2012 by D2K

[Simon]

I'm not a big stats guy but I thought the Bills OLine allowed a significant amount of pressure from the edges, particularly the left side. Pears is a journeyman who seems to be serviceable as often as not while Hairston is a big ol hunk of mass with limited mobility that might be able to carve out a decent NFL career on the right side. But the Bills have absolutely squat as far as LT's go right now.

While my preference is to see them load up on LB's and start hurting people, I would have no problem if they grabbed a blue chip OT with their first pick in the draft.

[PDaDdy]

I have already responded to this assinine point you were trying to make. Dont know where my reply went but I will reiterate.

 

You posted an article from November 11th by an author that is doing nothing more than projecting stats. Its a pathetic attempt to prove a point that isnt valid in the first place. An article that is written strictly on the premise of QBR (a made up stat generated by ESPN, and is put together by the likes of Trent Dilfer). Come on dude, that isnt gonna fly with me.

 

I also think its funny that you fail to mention where Fitz FINISHED in QBR. Let me help you...17th.

 

I have seen you go on some insane rant about "defining a "franchise QB" and some how come up with Fitz matching whatever it is YOUR criteria suggests. You ask everyone to define "franchise QB" yet you have nothing to quantify your definition. What planet do you live on that FItz is a Franchise QB? You actually think that a 59 million dollar contract, which the Bills lined with out-clauses, is a "franchise QB" contract? Come on dude, thats a middle of the road contract, that was nowhere near the dollar amount that he deserved. Kolb and Cassel got the same kind of deals, and neither one of them is the sure-fire starter going into next season.

 

I am still waiting for you to make a valid point. Regardless, I have about 20 minutes left before I am off for the night, considering its Valentines day and NO MB on the planet is better than love making, hah, I probably shouldnt have went there. If you want to continue this debate i will be back at this tomorrow. 20 minutes, respond quickly.

 

http://nyjetscap.com/2011_Efficiency/valueprice.php - for your viewing pleasure.

 

You sort of proved my point though you won't see it. Fitz finished 17th in the league with a beat up offensive line that is mediocre at pass blocking when healthy. He was throwing passes to a wild cat QB, a RB and a collection of practice squad guys and rejects off the street STARTING at WR at times and it's all his fault?

 

At best with Fitz being 17th that would say there are only 16 starting caliber QBs in the league. How many of them are actually franchise? You ignore that when the team was healthy he was top 5. This IS my point.

 

People's expectations are WAY to high and they ignore the team around a QB and want to blame a single individual. This is why guys get run out of town for the next guy and the next and the next and the next.

 

Try being a supporter instead of bashing one of the guys on the team that actually has some talent and plays well when there is talent around him on both sides of the ball.

Edited February 15, 2012 by PDaDdy

[Adam]

You sort of proved my point though you won't see it. Fitz finished 17th in the league with a beat up offensive line that is mediocre at pass blocking when healthy. He was throwing passes to a wild cat QB, a RB and a collection of practice squad guys and rejects off the street STARTING at WR at times and it's all his fault?

 

At best with Fitz being 17th that would say there are only 16 starting caliber QBs in the league. How many of them are actually franchise? You ignore that when the team was healthy he was top 5. This IS my point.

 

People's expectations are WAY to high and they ignore the team around a QB and want to blame a single individual. This is why guys get run out of town for the next guy and the next and the next and the next.

 

Try being a supporter instead of bashing one of the guys on the team that actually has some talent and plays well when there is talent around him on both sides of the ball.

I would stick with him until we find someone better available. He isn't very good, but is serviceable for now. We have enough holes to fill without creating more. Build a good team where you can.

[Best Player Available]

I believe that this is the article

The problem with this article? the biased source!

[Beerball]

The problem with this article? the biased source!

What is your point? Cat asked if Lee's statements were public & I posted a link.

[NickelCity]

Dammit I want to watch some football. My guess: Fitz starts out hot again. Hope we stay a bit more healthy and that Fitz's decline was, indeed, due to injuries. I love the guy, but next year is realistically his make or break season.

[Alphadawg7]

Swing and a miss!

 

Trust me when I say that you CANNOT educate me on anything football related. Its funny that you say "It's not where you're drafted it's how you play", because in the first reply post that you made to me, you made reference to Hairston being a 4th rounder, as to say that 4th rounders are nobodies. Then when I clearly pointed out that Pro-Bowl Olineman are routinely selected in the later rounds your retort completely contradicted what you previously said. Nice try. That might work on someone else, but that backwards talk doesnt hold credence with me.

 

Then you go on to say that our "oline doesnt afford Fitz more than 2.68 seconds to get rid of the ball", which is flat out made up hyperbole, again holding ZERO credence. As I pointed out earlier Eli Manning led the league in "snap to release" time with 3.8 seconds. Meaning (since I guess I have to explain it to you) he had LESS time then ANY other QB in the league and he still WON the Super Bowl. Thats strike 2 against you.

 

Finally, you get into some scorned schoolboy attitude of "support our starter or be a whiny hater" campaign. I bet you are one of those "I am taking my ball and leaving" kind of dudes, or my absolute favorite when someone cant prove a point "go post on another message board or pick a new team" kind of guys.

 

Strike 3.....you are out dude.

 

HAHAHAHAHA! Welcome to TSW, didn't take you long to peg good ole PdUddy

[Best Player Available]

What is your point? Cat asked if Lee's statements were public & I posted a link.

I misunderstood the reason for posting the link. My bad. My point is what Chris Brown writes as the Bills lead journalist should be taken with a huge grain of salt. It's just my opinion.

[thewildrabbit]

Let me preface by saying Hello to all, I am a new poster to THIS particular Bills board, and I look forward to talking football with this board. I have been a regular on the BBMB on the official site for awhile now and the lack of knowledge there astounds me sometimes. I have been perusing this board and can safely say, that I am "in the right place". I sincerely hope that you enjoy my posts and I hope to have lengthy, knowledgable debates.

 

To the point, there is a myth that this team is "lacking" along the Oline and in particular at the LT spot. To be honest, I have to find that laughable. The real problem with this offense is the Quarterback.

Lets not forget the fact that the QB (I cant even say his name sometimes he makes me sick) was the LEAST sacked QB in the NFL this year, even after injuries at critical positions along the offensive front. Lets also add QB pressures to this equation, of which the Qb was ONLY pressured on 135 of his 569 dropbacks or a rate of every 4.2% of dropbacks. Lets compare that number to QB's who are considered to "have all day" behind great offensive lines.

 

Drew Brees - 174 pressured dropbacks

 

Tom Brady - 173 pressured dropbacks

 

Aaron Rodgers - 158 pressured dropbacks

 

Eli Manning - 244 pressured dropbacks (the WORST OLINE in the league, and they won a Super Bowl)

There are 14 QB's who started every game this year (E. Manning/Brees/Freeman/Ryan/Rivers/Newton/Flacco/Dalton/Brady/Stafford/A. Smith/Rodgers/Sanchez). There are also Qb's who missed 1-4 games and their Olines surrendered more pressures than that of our Bills they are Vick/Grossman/Mccoy/Romo/Tebow/T. Jackson/Roethlisberger/Bradford/Gabbert. That is 22 Qb's who faced more pressure than Fitzpatrick and 9 of them didnt play 16 games. Of the remaining 12 QB's who started this year only Matt Hasselbeck threw more then 300 times.

 

This Buffalo Bills Oline is one of the strongest units in the league, and they receive constant hatred from some that are too enamoured by a QB who is nothing more than a solid spot-duty BACKUP.

 

Not enough to make some of you believers in this Oline, and non-Billievers in the QB? Well how about this:

 

Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio when under pressure ranked him 3rd worst in the league and only Curtis Painter (1 TD/ 4 Ints) and Carson Palmer (2 TD's/ 10 Ints) were worse. Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio under pressure was 2 TD's/ 8 INts.

 

How about his completion % under pressure? Well Fitz ranked at the bottom of the league at that as well at an abysmal 43.6%, hitting only 44 out of 101 attempts.

 

ladies and Gentleman this is definitive proof of the QB being the issue and not the Offensive line.

 

Let me also add that this team was dead last in 3 and outs this year. look, I realize the defense could benefit greatly from a pass rusher (in fact a pass rusher should be the pick in 2 of the first 3 rounds), but fans overlook that when your offense is giving the ball back to the opposing team after ONLY 3 plays that doesnt allow for the defense to properly make in-game adjustments and talk with the coaches about scheme on the sideline.

 

We must address the QB situation with haste, if not this team will continue to be muddled in mediocrity.

 

Stating that the NY Giants have the worst O line in the NFL because they allowed 244 pressures this season is kinda lame. Stats don't mean much when you look at both teams closely. There is so much difference between the two different teams (Bills-Giants) The players, the schemes and plays that are called. The Bills mostly utilize a short passing game, and depend on getting the ball out very quickly which can skew the stats into looking better then they really are.

 

 

Look at the amount of games played by the Giants O linemen this year and the last few years to understand the concept of "continuity". Look how many game starts their players have had over the last 5 years vs the Buffalo Bills O line to understand the reasoning behind the as to why having solid healthy good players is so important to having a good team.

 

Lets look at that NY Giants O line.

 

NY Giants David Diehl is a guard who was kicked out to LT this year because of an injury to the starter and it worked for them because the guy has been on the team since 2003 and basically played almost 16 games every year since he started in 03. (a great player) HE IS A PRO BOWLER (one time) The guy might have been a 5th round pick but he has definitely played like a top draft pick over his career. 140 games played 140 game starts is amazing

RG Chris Snee, a guard and 2nd round pick has been with the team since 2004. another player who has played almost 16 games every year since he was drafted HE IS A PRO BOWLER (three time) 120 games played, 120 games starts is amazing

 

RT Kareem Mckenzie, an 11 year vet that was drafted in the 3rd round by the jets and joined the Giants in 2005. Look at this players history of starts since joining the Giants, missing only 7 games in 7 years. 161 games 153 starts

C David Baas one year for the Giants and 2nd round pick of the 49ers in 2005, 11 games played 11 games started.

 

G Kevin Boothe 16 games-9 game starts who took over for starting G William Beatty 10 G-10 GS, a 2nd round pick of the Giants in 2009.

 

The Giants had some injuries on that O line this season and that may be the reason for the 9-7 season The Giants O line is superior to anything the Bills have fielded since the 1990's. Snee and Diehl are both pro bowlers that are lock downs at their positions

 

Talk about continuity, the Giants QB has been in the same system-scheme under the same HC and OC since Eli Manning was drafted as the first overall pick in the 2004 draft.

 

 

 

 

Comparing the bills to the Giants might have been somewhat valid in week 6 when they played against each other this year, they did play a close game 27-24. But once the injuries hit the Bills there was no comparison. Unlike the Giants who had some decent depth for their O line. The Buffalo Bills had no answer for the center position once Eric Wood went on IR. They tried 4 guys at center including G Andy Levitre and it was a horrid move. So GM Nix was forced to find warm bodies off the street to fill in on that line and for the WR position. Levitre also tried filling in at LT when both Bell and rookie Hairston were out injured. This was another move that didn't work out so well for the Bills.

 

Fitz played on a bad team with a crazy amount on injuries to some key players. O line, WR, TE. The Bills had ONE decent WR ranked 19th , the Giants have 3 top WR's that actually catch everything even thrown remotely close to them. Victor Cruz was the #3 WR in the league with 82 receptions,1536 yards-Hakeem Nicks was the 12th rated WR with 76 receptions, 1192 yards. Now consider the coverage teams will run on those players, is it easier to roll coverages to one WR or to 3?

 

The QB isn't the biggest problem with this team, even the FO and owner acknowledged that fact. The line needs better players who can stay healthy, and some depth. They need a pass rush and a defense like the Giants have. They need better LBers to stop the run. They need some WR's and a TE who can stay healthy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. whats kinda funny is that the site you link where you got the stats from considers Ryan Fitzpatrick the 8th best QB in the league in avoiding sacks which is pretty darn good considering the talent around him.

 

http://www.profootba...1-quarterbacks/

Edited February 15, 2012 by Fear the Beard