Tackling the "we need a LT" myth

[PDaDdy]

Neither Fitzpatrick, nor our offensive tackles are good enough. Fitzpatrick is a very good backup QB.

 

How do you statistically define a starter?

 

So you're saying the Bills don't need a franchise quarterback? You're stupid.

 

 

Wow. What a well thought out *eh em* intelligent argument. Please statistically define a franchise QB? OH? You can't? Why? Perhaps because with the crap we have he outperformed some guys you think ARE franchise QBs?

[metzelaars_lives]

Neither Fitzpatrick, nor our offensive tackles are good enough. Fitzpatrick is a very good backup QB.

 

Adam, you may be a nice guy, but this is what I hate about this board sometimes. So Chris Hairston gets taken in the 4th round. All the size you'd ever want. Steps in as a rookie and performs very, very admirably at both tackle positions, yet you in your infinite wisdom have already decided that he's "not good enough." AHHHHHHH!

[D2K]

I'm glad you laughed but you missed an opportunity for education. It's not where you're drafted it's how you play. Our line doesn't afford Fitz more than 2.68 seconds to get rid of the ball. THAT is not good enough. End of story. All you need to know.

 

It's not where you are drafted it's how you play. Despite where those guys were drafted I'll bet some made probowl not to mention the other guys around them on their respective lines. How many of our guys made it?

 

I'm not saying our REAL LT of the future is there at #10 but we NEED our REAL LT of the future and some WRs before we worry about Fitz. He's signed for a bunch of years and a bunch of money. Support our starter or be a whiny hater.

 

Swing and a miss!

 

Trust me when I say that you CANNOT educate me on anything football related. Its funny that you say "It's not where you're drafted it's how you play", because in the first reply post that you made to me, you made reference to Hairston being a 4th rounder, as to say that 4th rounders are nobodies. Then when I clearly pointed out that Pro-Bowl Olineman are routinely selected in the later rounds your retort completely contradicted what you previously said. Nice try. That might work on someone else, but that backwards talk doesnt hold credence with me.

 

Then you go on to say that our "oline doesnt afford Fitz more than 2.68 seconds to get rid of the ball", which is flat out made up hyperbole, again holding ZERO credence. As I pointed out earlier Eli Manning led the league in "snap to release" time with 3.8 seconds. Meaning (since I guess I have to explain it to you) he had LESS time then ANY other QB in the league and he still WON the Super Bowl. Thats strike 2 against you.

 

Finally, you get into some scorned schoolboy attitude of "support our starter or be a whiny hater" campaign. I bet you are one of those "I am taking my ball and leaving" kind of dudes, or my absolute favorite when someone cant prove a point "go post on another message board or pick a new team" kind of guys.

 

Strike 3.....you are out dude.

[PDaDdy]

Swing and a miss!

 

Trust me when I say that you CANNOT educate me on anything football related. Its funny that you say "It's not where you're drafted it's how you play", because in the first reply post that you made to me, you made reference to Hairston being a 4th rounder, as to say that 4th rounders are nobodies. Then when I clearly pointed out that Pro-Bowl Olineman are routinely selected in the later rounds your retort completely contradicted what you previously said. Nice try. That might work on someone else, but that backwards talk doesnt hold credence with me.

 

Then you go on to say that our "oline doesnt afford Fitz more than 2.68 seconds to get rid of the ball", which is flat out made up hyperbole, again holding ZERO credence. As I pointed out earlier Eli Manning led the league in "snap to release" time with 3.8 seconds. Meaning (since I guess I have to explain it to you) he had LESS time then ANY other QB in the league and he still WON the Super Bowl. Thats strike 2 against you.

 

Finally, you get into some scorned schoolboy attitude of "support our starter or be a whiny hater" campaign. I bet you are one of those "I am taking my ball and leaving" kind of dudes, or my absolute favorite when someone cant prove a point "go post on another message board or pick a new team" kind of guys.

 

Strike 3.....you are out dude.

 

You couldn't be more wrong. It's your right to continue to be so. Eli led the league with 3.1? Are you kidding? Fitz and Matt Hasselbach of the Titans both had less than 2.7. SOOOO maybe Eli did led the league in having the most time. Our guy had the second least. Pointing out that there are good players found in the later rounds doesn't mean that every player found in the later rounds are good. Do you see the leap of logic you attempted to make there?

 

Let me clue you in. EVERYONE can learn something about football you and I both included. It's people like you that have a narrow minded view that don't believe they can learn anything WON'T. Smart people consider new information. Evaluate it and incorporate it into their understanding if it makes sense. Boorish blow hard supposed know it alls stick to their guns despite new information.

 

Strike 3? ROFLOL. You're not even at bat in the same league dude. LOL. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm that guy that makes the other guy want to take his ball and go home.

 

Let me explain what a whiner is to me. A guy that complains but can't quantitatively identify the problem. Can't quantitatively define what success is and has no ability to provide a solution and much more importantly a realistic plan to provide that solution. Consider how you stack up against those criteria. Stike 4

 

Again big man. Define what a franchise QB is and maybe you have a leg to stand on. Until then you are a whiner plain and simple. Now take your ball(s) and go home.

Edited February 14, 2012 by PDaDdy

[D2K]

You couldn't be more wrong. It's your right to continue to be so. Eli led the league with 3.1? Are you kidding Fitz and Matt Hasselbach of the Titans both had less than 2.7. SOOOO Maybe Eli did lead the league in having the most time. Our guy had the second least. Pointing out that there are good players found in the later rounds doesn't mean that every player found in the later rounds are good. Do you see the leap of logic you attempted to make there?

 

Let me clue you in. EVERYONE can learn something about football you and I both included. It's people like you that have a narrow minded view that don't believe they can learn anything WON'T. Smart people consider new information. Evaluate it and incorporate it into their understanding if it makes sense. Boorish blow hard supposed know it alls stick to their guns despite new information.

 

Strike 3? ROFLOL. You're not even at bat in the same league dude. LOL.

 

Again, completely laughable and lacks substance. Where are you getting your 2.7 stat? That couldnt be further from the truth.

 

You are interpreting what I am saying completely wrong. Reading comprehension 101 dude.

 

Eli Manning had the LEAST AMOUNT OF TIME than ANY other QB in the league from snap to release. The LEAST, not Fitz or Hasselbeck, who were protected by two of the best Olines in football this year arent even middle of the pack.

 

I never once said that players found in the later rounds are always studs, but the same can be said about 1st rounders, hence the word "BUST". That label ONLY gets associated with 1st rounders and anyone calling any player a bust who was drafted outside of the first round really has no clue. What I said was you dont waste 1st round picks on offensive lineman especially at the 10th pick in the draft.

 

I also NEVER said that I cant learn anything more about football, or made reference to me being the "all-knowing", what I said was that YOU couldnt teach me anything about football that I already havent forgotten.

 

while your at it, why dont you go ahead and chew on these stats for awhile....

 

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Edited February 14, 2012 by D2K

[Fan in San Diego]

Let me preface by saying Hello to all, I am a new poster to THIS particular Bills board, and I look forward to talking football with this board. I have been a regular on the BBMB on the official site for awhile now and the lack of knowledge there astounds me sometimes. I have been perusing this board and can safely say, that I am "in the right place". I sincerely hope that you enjoy my posts and I hope to have lengthy, knowledgable debates.

 

 

Drew Brees - 174 pressured dropbacks

 

Tom Brady - 173 pressured dropbacks

 

Aaron Rodgers - 158 pressured dropbacks

 

Eli Manning - 244 pressured dropbacks (the WORST OLINE in the league, and they won a Super Bowl)

 

There are 14 QB's who started every game this year (E. Manning/Brees/Freeman/Ryan/Rivers/Newton/Flacco/Dalton/Brady/Stafford/A. Smith/Rodgers/Sanchez). There are also Qb's who missed 1-4 games and their Olines surrendered more pressures than that of our Bills they are Vick/Grossman/Mccoy/Romo/Tebow/T. Jackson/Roethlisberger/Bradford/Gabbert. That is 22 Qb's who faced more pressure than Fitzpatrick and 9 of them didnt play 16 games. Of the remaining 12 QB's who started this year only Matt Hasselbeck threw more then 300 times.

 

This Buffalo Bills Oline is one of the strongest units in the league, and they receive constant hatred from some that are too enamoured by a QB who is nothing more than a solid spot-duty BACKUP.

 

Not enough to make some of you believers in this Oline, and non-Billievers in the QB? Well how about this:

 

Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio when under pressure ranked him 3rd worst in the league and only Curtis Painter (1 TD/ 4 Ints) and Carson Palmer (2 TD's/ 10 Ints) were worse. Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio under pressure was 2 TD's/ 8 INts.

 

How about his completion % under pressure? Well Fitz ranked at the bottom of the league at that as well at an abysmal 43.6%, hitting only 44 out of 101 attempts.

ladies and Gentleman this is definitive proof of the QB being the issue and not the Offensive line.

 

Let me also add that this team was dead last in 3 and outs this year. look, I realize the defense could benefit greatly from a pass rusher (in fact a pass rusher should be the pick in 2 of the first 3 rounds), but fans overlook that when your offense is giving the ball back to the opposing team after ONLY 3 plays that doesnt allow for the defense to properly make in-game adjustments and talk with the coaches about scheme on the sideline.

 

We must address the QB situation with haste, if not this team will continue to be muddled in mediocrity.

 

Interesting stat. The QB article from QB coach David Lee posted on twobillsdrive is complementing Fitz on his accuracy when throwing under pressure. Where he is going to focus on Fitz's accuracy is working on his mechanics when not under pressure to throw. He thinks Fitz needs to improve his mechanics when not under pressure and the pocket is holding up. Seems opposite to your claim! I'll take the QB coaches opinion over stats which can be misleading.

[D2K]

Interesting stat. The QB article from QB coach David Lee posted on twobillsdrive is complementing Fitz on his accuracy when throwing under pressure. Where he is going to focus on Fitz's accuracy is working on his mechanics when not under pressure to throw. He thinks Fitz needs to improve his mechanics when not under pressure and the pocket is holding up. Seems opposite to your claim! I'll take the QB coaches opinion over stats which can be misleading.

 

Do you honestly think that David lee is going to come in and say that Fitz is horrible and that the stats prove it?

 

2 Tds to 8 ints when under pressure should tell you all that you need to know.

 

Come on man, its coach speak.

Edited February 14, 2012 by D2K

[HuSeYiN1978]

Top 20 is not great ???.....how many other bills can you name who are Top 20 at their positions ??

 

i'll help you....less than 10 players:

 

FOR SURE: Fred Jackson, Kyle Williams, Fitz, Wood, Levitre

 

PROBABLY: Dareus

 

MAYBE: Stevie, Barnett

 

 

my point is, that Fitz is NOT near our biggest problem. i understand the importance of a GREAT qb, but assuming the bills sit at #10, i wouldn't "reach" for a qb. we have MANY other needs.

 

it's like McGahee being replaced by Lynch being replaced by Jackson and now Spiller. has each been an upgrade?....thats arguable, while other areas get neglected.

 

Ummm first of all you absolutely made no sense. You started off talking about how you disagreed that 20 out of 32 IS great instead of not great like I said and then you started talking as if I said we need a new QB and then you named players that are top 20 in their position (which you forgot to mention Moorman, Lindell, Wilson and Chandler) and then you proceeded to tell me how our changing of running backs was really not an upgrade when in fact it was (except for Spiller taking over Fred's job, yes I'm team Fred all the way).

Mcgahee was good but when we got Lynch it brought a different energy (beast mode) to that position. I wasn't a fan of letting Lynch go until I saw what a real beast Fred is. I wouldn't trade Fred for Lynch today if you asked me therefore Fred IS an upgrade over Lynch.

 

So at this point I don't even know what to debate with you about because you made no sense as to what I posted.

Edited February 14, 2012 by HuSeYiN1978

[uncle flap]

 

Trust me when I say that you CANNOT educate me on anything football related.

 

 

i believe it. but is it because of a learning disability?

 

just joking. in all seriousness tho, why can't you see - or - why can't you admit that more than one factor is at work here?

 

think what you want about the talent level of the oline - you honestly don't realize the play calling and offensive schemes inflate the statistics you're grasping so tightly? and maybe, just maybe, the plays are designed to limit the amount of time the oline is expected to block? now why would that be?

 

again, i dont think fitz is all that good. i think his lack of accuracy on the deep ball plays into the play calling as well. i also don't think the oline is all that bad either. they're serviceable, just like fitz.

 

if there was a QB worthy of the 10th pick i dont think buddy would hesitate to draft him. but the line is not so awesome that if the best player available is an LT they'd pass on him. i would like to see that pick used on a de/olb pass rusher, but not if it's a reach. in fact, i'd really like to see what happens in free agency before i'm sold on what position makes the most sense at #10.

Edited February 14, 2012 by uncle flap

[HuSeYiN1978]

Swing and a miss!

 

Trust me when I say that you CANNOT educate me on anything football related. Its funny that you say "It's not where you're drafted it's how you play", because in the first reply post that you made to me, you made reference to Hairston being a 4th rounder, as to say that 4th rounders are nobodies. Then when I clearly pointed out that Pro-Bowl Olineman are routinely selected in the later rounds your retort completely contradicted what you previously said. Nice try. That might work on someone else, but that backwards talk doesnt hold credence with me.

 

Then you go on to say that our "oline doesnt afford Fitz more than 2.68 seconds to get rid of the ball", which is flat out made up hyperbole, again holding ZERO credence. As I pointed out earlier Eli Manning led the league in "snap to release" time with 3.8 seconds. Meaning (since I guess I have to explain it to you) he had LESS time then ANY other QB in the league and he still WON the Super Bowl. Thats strike 2 against you.

 

Finally, you get into some scorned schoolboy attitude of "support our starter or be a whiny hater" campaign. I bet you are one of those "I am taking my ball and leaving" kind of dudes, or my absolute favorite when someone cant prove a point "go post on another message board or pick a new team" kind of guys.

 

Strike 3.....you are out dude.

 

Writing on a board about to give your response a score, "the energy is intense as the crowd waits to see what the judge's score is" the anouncer says. "Oh My God. I can't believe it. The judge has scored the post at 10 out of 10 ladies and gentlemen. Let's give a big hand for our winner"

[PDaDdy]

Again, completely laughable and lacks substance. Where are you getting your 2.7 stat? That couldnt be further from the truth.

 

You are interpreting what I am saying completely wrong. Reading comprehension 101 dude.

 

Eli Manning had the LEAST AMOUNT OF TIME than ANY other QB in the league from snap to release. The LEAST, not Fitz or Hasselbeck, who were protected by two of the best Olines in football this year arent even middle of the pack.

 

I never once said that players found in the later rounds are always studs, but the same can be said about 1st rounders, hence the word "BUST". That label ONLY gets associated with 1st rounders and anyone calling any player a bust who was drafted outside of the first round really has no clue. What I said was you dont waste 1st round picks on offensive lineman especially at the 10th pick in the draft.

 

I also NEVER said that I cant learn anything more about football, or made reference to me being the "all-knowing", what I said was that YOU couldnt teach me anything about football that I already havent forgotten.

 

while your at it, why dont you go ahead and chew on these stats for awhile....

 

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

Not sure where you got your BS stats from. Some bozo web site with a made up adjusted QB rating that nobody has ever heard of. We already have QB rating and QBR not to mention a slew of stats on nfl.com.

 

 

MEANWHILE. THANK YOU for making ME learn something. This ESPN article confirms that Fitz is actually THE FASTEST QB IN THE LEAGUE GETTING RID OF THE BALL! NOT that I would expect you to actually learn anything but Hasselbeck got rid of the ball on average in 2.36 so Fitz actually has to get rid of it faster than that. What QB can be successful given that knowledge?

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/30493/line-of-scrimmage-key-to-qb-play-winning

 

I have NO DOUBT that you will ignore this information because it would actually mean you are flat out wrong. I doubt you have the integrity of character to admit as such so I won't bother for a response to my points just more BS name calling and trolling.

Edited February 14, 2012 by PDaDdy

[K-9]

Interesting stat. The QB article from QB coach David Lee posted on twobillsdrive is complementing Fitz on his accuracy when throwing under pressure. Where he is going to focus on Fitz's accuracy is working on his mechanics when not under pressure to throw. He thinks Fitz needs to improve his mechanics when not under pressure and the pocket is holding up. Seems opposite to your claim! I'll take the QB coaches opinion over stats which can be misleading.

 

This is the sign of a good QB coach. Focusing on improving mechanics while in the pocket is the most critical aspect of that equation. EVERYBODY'S mechanics break down to some degree or another when they are moving around. It's a question of how quickly you can reset your feet, if possible (unless, of course, you have the sheer arm strength to compensate and most simply don't).

 

Fitz has this maddening tendency to lower the ball and wind up from his hip on his passes. This messes up the timing and coordination with his feet and hips and often produces a throw more off the back foot and his passes tend to sail as a result. I can't say this is from fatigue because it happens early in games as often as late. Anyway, I'm glad Lee is looking to address this issue.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited February 14, 2012 by K-9

[DrDawkinstein]

::Sees most of the debate is between D2K and PDaddy::

 

"Hey D2K, how do you feel about Jason Peters?"

 

::Runs from thread!::

[K-9]

Uh still didn't answer my question. Define a starting, franchise and or elite QB.

 

 

 

Oh good god. You two should keep that kind of talk for the bedroom. Unbelievable, another whiny Fitz hater agrees with another yet they can provide no criteria to define what a franchise QB is? SHOCKING!!!

 

Franchise QBs are like pornography. You just know it when you see it. I don't think the attributes of a franchise QB can be quantified statistically before the fact. It's not about the numbers producing the franchise QB, it's about the franchise QB producing the numbers. FWIW, the physical characteristics, while important, take a back seat to the mental and personality characteristics that coaches look for in a QB.

 

There's a lot to like about Fitz but he's got his share of faults as well. To me, he looks like a decent placeholder until "that" guy comes along.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

::Sees most of the debate is between D2K and PDaddy::

 

"Hey D2K, how do you feel about Jason Peters?"

 

::Runs from thread!::

 

Oh no you dint.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PDaDdy]

::Sees most of the debate is between D2K and PDaddy::

 

"Hey D2K, how do you feel about Jason Peters?"

 

::Runs from thread!::

 

ROFLOL. Nice. I hope FJ doesn't go through the same contract issues as Peters. I wonder if people will be consistent and turn on him like a pack of wild dogs too.

[K-9]

ROFLOL. Nice. I hope FJ doesn't go through the same contract issues as Peters. I wonder if people will be consistent and turn on him like a pack of wild dogs too.

 

No chance. Freddy has never acted like a classless unprofessional about it. It's not in his character.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PDaDdy]

Franchise QBs are like pornography. You just know it when you see it. I don't think the attributes of a franchise QB can be quantified statistically before the fact. It's not about the numbers producing the franchise QB, it's about the franchise QB producing the numbers. FWIW, the physical characteristics, while important, take a back seat to the mental and personality characteristics that coaches look for in a QB.

 

There's a lot to like about Fitz but he's got his share of faults as well. To me, he looks like a decent placeholder until "that" guy comes along.

 

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Ah if only games were won and lost by qualitative assessment. Unfortunately numbers tell the story. In the NFL we keep score which are numbers. I'm not saying there is no value to qualitative assessments but they are opinions nothing more. To address your analogy. Almost everyone has a different opinion of pornography. Nude paintings by famous artists are considered pornography by some and art by others.

[stony]

And technically your husband Tom could throw the ball really high in the air, run underneath it and catch it himself.

 

We should start a thread of these: Fitz's moments of TERRIBLE mechanics caught on camera.

 

Ahh, at least you made me laugh. Yes, those mechanics are horrible, and no there is no way Tom could throw a ball with his cannon and run and catch it. Didn't you see his 40 time?

[K-9]

Ah if only games were won and lost by qualitative assessment. Unfortunately numbers tell the story. In the NFL we keep score which are numbers. I'm not saying there is no value to qualitative assessments but they are opinions nothing more. To address your analogy. Almost everyone has a different opinion of pornography. Nude paintings by famous artists are considered pornography by some and art by others.

 

Tell you what, find a coach, preferably pro or college, head or positional, and ask him what characteristics they look for in a starting QB. The same could be asked of a high school coach for that matter.

 

The numbers take care of themselves and only occur after the fact. The franchise QB possesses those qualities that translate to good numbers, not the other way around. You seem to keep asking people for a statistical definition when one doesn't exist.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PDaDdy]

Tell you what, find a coach, preferably pro or college, head or positional, and ask him what characteristics they look for in a starting QB. The same could be asked of a high school coach for that matter.

 

The numbers take care of themselves and only occur after the fact. The franchise QB possesses those qualities that translate to good numbers, not the other way around. You seem to keep asking people for a statistical definition when one doesn't exist.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Sounds like you are debating chicken or the egg while your own statements actually confirm that franchise QBs put up numbers. Therefore NUMBERS can be used to define a criteria for what a franchise QB is. The problem all the haters have is that if they define what that statistical success is that franchise QBs produce that some QBs might meet or exceed those numbers that aren't franchise QBs in their opinion.

 

As stated, that is the problem with qualitative assessments there is no winning the argument. There is no end to the debate. Once someone has the balls to put numbers to franchise performance they have to accept that some guys they don't think are franchise really are and some guys they think are franchise really aren't. Only providing biased qualitative evaluations without also providing quantitative evaluations are useless. It's like debating good art vs bad art. It's all in the eye of the beholder and everyone's opinion is of equal value.

 

I have already found a pro coach. Gailey and our general manager Nix already think that Fitz is franchise and they have paid him as such

Edited February 15, 2012 by PDaDdy