Tackling the "we need a LT" myth

[Bronc24]

Ahhh yes...if only they handed out playoff spots on October 1st.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I'd still like to see the Fitz injury report all of those weeks.

 

how could it been so hush hush when the policy clearly states teams must report injuries.

 

chest ? probable? It's a report but they don't list cracked anything

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/33719/qb-ryan-fitzpatrick-limited-in-practice

[K-9]

I'd still like to see the Fitz injury report all of those weeks.

 

how could it been so hush hush when the policy clearly states teams must report injuries.

 

chest ? probable? It's a report but they don't list cracked anything

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/33719/qb-ryan-fitzpatrick-limited-in-practice

 

It's my understanding that teams only have to report injuries if the player misses or can't participate in a full practice.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[hondo in seattle]

(Note: I am a registered independent).

 

I agree that Fitz is not an elite QB.

 

I also agree, however, that Gailey's quick-hitting offensive scheme and Fitz's quick decision making made the sack/pressure statistics look better.

 

Assuming Fitz could throw deep, would you really feel comfortable throwing deep with that line? I wouldn't. And look at the lack of push on 3rd and short situations when we ran the ball. It's just not a dominant line. (Yes, Fredex and CJ both averaged over 5 yards per carry, but a lot of that was (1) good play calling and (2) runners making something out of nothing).

 

All in all, we have an okay line and okay QB. I wouldn't mind seeing upgrades both at LT and QB. But for now, both are serviceable. Bigger needs include DE and WR.

[D2K]

To answer your question: less than a second--as Fitz (better than most QB's I'd argue) demonstrates. But, we're not talking about progressions here. As you rightly point out, the entire offense is designed for quick ROUTES. When Big Ben lingers lingers lingers in the pocket, it's not because he's trying to decide who to pass to, it's because he's got receivers working the defenders DOWN field. Fitz has neither the time, nor Ben's pocket scrambling ability to do so. With regards to the latter--few quarterbacks of the past decade have, I'd argue.

 

I'm not sure why you mentioned Eli in a vacuum. Can you please link to a full list of "time in pocket" stats? I'd be very curious to see them.

 

As for Fitz's accuracy, I think you're flat out wrong. His accuracy CAN be an abomination, at other times it's positively stunning. If you've never seen him thread the ball through three defenders, across the middle of the field, to where only the receiver can get it, then you're spending too much time with your nose in the stat sheet, and not enough time actually watching the games.

 

His accuracy suffers the most when he's pressured. Period. His accuracy nears miraculous levels when he has...time to throw. He rarely, IF EVER, throws a real whopper when there's nobody in his face, and has time and space to actually step up and make a throw.

 

To his credit, these conditions are rare--hence the quick-design of Gailey's offense we all seem to acknowledge as being the holistic reality of this argument. And what's the catalyst for this design? The cause? The rationale? A: an offensive line that can't provide adequate protection.

 

We're playing survivor football out there.

 

I guess I will have to respectively agree to disagree. As far as FItz having or as you say not having time or the "pocket scrambling ability" of a Big Ben, I would have to point out that the Tom Bradys and Joe flaccos of the world dont necessarily need agility and quickness as much as lateral mobility and more importantly pocket awareness. A simple slide from the left to right or vice-versa in the pocket as opposed to quickly "bailing" at the first sign of trouble would go along way. Pre-snap reads and determing the "Key" defender is almost football 101. This is why motioning players is quintessential in determing man/zone coverage. Fitz severley lacks in these areas and again, I will have to point out that it is more then evident with his league leading INT numbers.

 

As far as the Eli Manning in a vacuum, I would say that I use him as the example because he is the QB of the team that just won the SUper Bowl and his stats prove that his Oline is downright lackluster and he still is able to thrive. Fitz has IMO, a top 3-5 Oline in the league and still is a bottom feeder on all the stat lines that hold significant value. The Link is from Football outsiders and I am a premium member. I dont kow why it wont let me post the link and I have emailed them telling them about this situation and I hope to have it rectified soon. In the mean time you will have to take my word at face value but I will post this link as soon as possible. For what its worth, Fitz' number from snap to release is 4.6 seconds. Hardly the 2-3 that people who defend him have tryed pointing out.

 

There is no possible way that I can agree with you that FItz accuracy has ever or will ever be considered of all things "stunning". He is a starter on an NFL roster (no matter how bad is immaterial to this point) who should be capable of making a nice throw from time to time (if not the talent evaluating from OBD is need of a serious over haul, but thats for another time and another post). The problem is the consistancy in which FItz makes "good" throws, and anything beyond 15 yards is a "close your eyes and pray" situation with him.

 

Alot of the "fitz doesnt have time in the pocket" arguments can simply be dismissed by saying that Chan doesnt run a balanced enough offense to keep defenses guessing.

 

As far as the "His accuracy suffers the most when he's pressured. Period." argument, I would have to say that is nothing more than hyperbole and goes without saying with EVERY QB in the league. If you or I had a clean pocket on every snap I am sure that we could run ANY NFL offense at a Pro Bowl level. I think that line of thinking is more along the lines something an apologist would say. Thats ok too, its our team and we should support them the best we can, but after a deceade+ of mismanagement and blunder I cant take that approach anymore.

Edited February 14, 2012 by D2K

[RealityCheck]

I'd still like to see the Fitz injury report all of those weeks.

 

how could it been so hush hush when the policy clearly states teams must report injuries.

 

chest ? probable? It's a report but they don't list cracked anything

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/33719/qb-ryan-fitzpatrick-limited-in-practice

Another poster last week mentioned this rule also, and if I remember correctly he stated that injuries only have to be reported if said player is not available for organized team activities. If he makes it to the practice field perhaps that allowed for a little subterfuge. Perhaps not. I don't know the rule myself but it would appear that if Fitz was going to start a specific game that it would be to his advantage if the opposing team was unaware of his injury. If Fitz was injured I am happy that they lied about.

[Maury Ballstein]

first, welcome to the board, enjoy !!

 

second, i have to strongly disagree with you.

 

 

Fitzpatrick made the O-Line look good because he threw the ball in under 3 seconds. thats all the time he had before protection broke down. the Bills have the WORST two starting offensive tackles in the league. other than wood (at center) and levitre (at left guard only) the whole unit is not good enough. It would not surprise me in the least if they used their first round pick on a LT....Martin from Stanford the way i see the draft falling. i know a pass rush is what everyone is clamoring for, but it may already be on the roster if Merriman can get healthy, he was a beast in preseason and got injured in first regular season game.

 

as far as Fitz goes. the bills were 5-2 thru the washington game where fitz got his ribs broken by London Fletcher. they were 1-8 after that. Fitz is the least of our problems. a pass rush and o line protection is a much bigger problem. Fitz may not be a "franchise QB" , but in my opinion is a Top 20 QB.

 

 

Top 20? Is that a good thing? I have to say I am on board with Mr D2k's statements......Fitz is not good enough and never will be.....Watch Cam Dalton Locker any of these rookie qb's they have 10x the arm of Mr Fitz.......Let's get him out of here.......cold hard truth, hes just not good enough

[The Big Cat]

I guess I will have to respectively agree to disagree. As far as FItz having or as you say not having time or the "pocket scrambling ability" of a Big Ben, I would have to point out that the Tom Bradys and Joe flaccos of the world dont necessarily need agility and quickness as much as lateral mobility and more importantly pocket awareness. A simple slide from the left to right or vice-versa in the pocket as opposed to quickly "bailing" at the first sign of trouble would go along way. Pre-snap reads and determing the "Key" defender is almost football 101. This is why motioning players is quintessential in determing man/zone coverage. Fitz severley lacks in these areas and again, I will have to point out that it is more then evident with his league leading INT numbers.

 

As far as the Eli Manning in a vacuum, I would say that I use him as the example because he is the QB of the team that just won the SUper Bowl and his stats prove that his Oline is downright lackluster and he still is able to thrive. Fitz has IMO, a top 3-5 Oline in the league and still is a bottom feeder on all the stat lines that hold significant value. The Link is from Football outsiders and I am a premium member. I dont kow why it wont let me post the link and I have emailed them telling them about this situation and I hope to have it rectified soon. In the mean time you will have to my word at face value but I will post this link as soon as possible. For what its worth, Fitz' number from snap to release is 4.6 seconds. Hardly the 2-3 that people who defend him have tryed pointing out.

 

There is no possible way that I can agree with you that FItz accuracy has ever or will ever be considered of all things "stunning". He is a starter on an NFL roster (no matter how bad is immaterial to this point) who should be capable of making a nice throw from time to time (if not the talent evaluating from OBD is need of a serious over haul, but thats for another time and another post). The problem is the consistancy in which FItz makes "good" throws, and anything beyond 15 yards is a "close your eyes and pray" situation with him.

 

Alot of the "fitz doesnt have time in the pocket" arguments can simply be dismissed by saying that Chan doesnt run a balanced enough offense to keep defenses guessing.

 

As far as the "His accuracy suffers the most when he's pressured. Period." argument, I would have to say that is nothing more than hyperbole and goes without saying with EVERY QB in the league. If you or I had a clean pocket on every snap I am sure that we could run ANY NFL offense at a Pro Bowl level. I think that line of thinking is more along the lines something an apologist would say. Thats ok too, its our team and we should support them the best we can, but after a deceade+ of mismanagement and blunder I cant take that approach anymore.

 

Then we'll have to agree to disagree since we diverge on many an observation.

 

However, one observation I refuse to let you get away with is comparing Brady's pocket presence to Big Ben's. Brady has benefited from OUTSTANDING pass protection, and when it breaks down he goes from first ballot hall-of-famer to downright stupid looking.

[metzelaars_lives]

I guess I will have to respectively agree to disagree. As far as FItz having or as you say not having time or the "pocket scrambling ability" of a Big Ben, I would have to point out that the Tom Bradys and Joe flaccos of the world dont necessarily need agility and quickness as much as lateral mobility and more importantly pocket awareness. A simple slide from the left to right or vice-versa in the pocket as opposed to quickly "bailing" at the first sign of trouble would go along way. Pre-snap reads and determing the "Key" defender is almost football 101. This is why motioning players is quintessential in determing man/zone coverage. Fitz severley lacks in these areas and again, I will have to point out that it is more then evident with his league leading INT numbers.

 

As far as the Eli Manning in a vacuum, I would say that I use him as the example because he is the QB of the team that just won the SUper Bowl and his stats prove that his Oline is downright lackluster and he still is able to thrive. Fitz has IMO, a top 3-5 Oline in the league and still is a bottom feeder on all the stat lines that hold significant value. The Link is from Football outsiders and I am a premium member. I dont kow why it wont let me post the link and I have emailed them telling them about this situation and I hope to have it rectified soon. In the mean time you will have to my word at face value but I will post this link as soon as possible. For what its worth, Fitz' number from snap to release is 4.6 seconds. Hardly the 2-3 that people who defend him have tryed pointing out.

 

There is no possible way that I can agree with you that FItz accuracy has ever or will ever be considered of all things "stunning". He is a starter on an NFL roster (no matter how bad is immaterial to this point) who should be capable of making a nice throw from time to time (if not the talent evaluating from OBD is need of a serious over haul, but thats for another time and another post). The problem is the consistancy in which FItz makes "good" throws, and anything beyond 15 yards is a "close your eyes and pray" situation with him.

 

Alot of the "fitz doesnt have time in the pocket" arguments can simply be dismissed by saying that Chan doesnt run a balanced enough offense to keep defenses guessing.

 

As far as the "His accuracy suffers the most when he's pressured. Period." argument, I would have to say that is nothing more than hyperbole and goes without saying with EVERY QB in the league. If you or I had a clean pocket on every snap I am sure that we could run ANY NFL offense at a Pro Bowl level. I think that line of thinking is more along the lines something an apologist would say. Thats ok too, its our team and we should support them the best we can, but after a deceade+ of mismanagement and blunder I cant take that approach anymore.

 

I'm not as down on Fitz as you, but I am as high on the OL as you. I'm giving him a one year reprieve based on the cracked rib factor. Have fun on here though because people like to disregard facts. The Buffalo Bills allowed the least sacks in the NFL, were 4th in YPC and 1st on YPC on 1st down. Yet literally more than half the people on here will tell you straight up that our OL downright sucks.

[The Big Cat]

I'm not as down on Fitz as you, but I am as high on the OL as you. I'm giving him a one year reprieve based on the cracked rib factor. Have fun on here though because people like to disregard facts. The Buffalo Bills allowed the least sacks in the NFL, were 4th in YPC and 1st on YPC on 1st down. Yet literally more than half the people on here will tell you straight up that our OL downright sucks.

 

And those people are flat out wrong. But something is amiss with the amount of time AND space Fitz gets to throw the ball. It always looks like he's throwing out of a crowd.

[D2K]

However, I will point out that at 10, there is no way we can pick a QB. Unless we trade up to pick in the top 2, we have to hope that we luck out on a late round pick to be the successor.

 

Yes, I agree 100%. With that said, I am in the small majority that would trade the proverbial farm for an Andrew Luck or a RG3. I believe with FA, the draft and Parity that no team is more than 1 offseason away from contention, which makes our now 12 year playoff drought all the more confusing.

 

If we cant trade up I want one of Coples/Perry/Burfict (i can make a strong argument for him at 10).

[KD in CA]

Isn't that what Ravens fans said about Trent Dilfer?

 

That you need to go back more than a decade to find a counter example (and that one had one of the 3 best defensive teams EVER) only adds credibility to his point.

 

 

If the Bills are in position to draft a top QB prospect than they should do it. But they weren't in that position last year and they probably won't be this year either so the better move is to draft for other needs and live with a caretaker at QB.

[K-9]

I'm not as down on Fitz as you, but I am as high on the OL as you. I'm giving him a one year reprieve based on the cracked rib factor. Have fun on here though because people like to disregard facts. The Buffalo Bills allowed the least sacks in the NFL, were 4th in YPC and 1st on YPC on 1st down. Yet literally more than half the people on here will tell you straight up that our OL downright sucks.

 

This is a credit to Gailey's offensive design which, in the passing game, is much like what Brady does: get the ball out in less than three seconds.

 

And the run game design really plays to the strengths of big, heavy linemen. Spread out the D and get isolated blocks. OLmen live for this. Nothing feels better to an OL than kicking ass in the run game. I wish Gailey respected that more. When your OL is dominating in the run game it just makes things so much easier. Gailey got away from it way too soon, too often.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[DrDawkinstein]

And those people are flat out wrong. But something is amiss with the amount of time AND space Fitz gets to throw the ball. It always looks like he's throwing out of a crowd.

 

Agreed. I dont think Fitz is 100% of the problem, nor is upgrading him the solution. Same with the OL.

 

Either way, with Bell a FA, the Bills are in much more need of signing/drafting a LT than they are QB.

[The Big Cat]

That you need to go back more than a decade to find a counter example (and that one had one of the 3 best defensive teams EVER) only adds credibility to his point.

 

 

If the Bills are in position to draft a top QB prospect than they should do it. But they weren't in that position last year and they probably won't be this year either so the better move is to draft for other needs and live with a caretaker at QB.

 

Once the beard is back, I'd say "The Caretaker" might actually be the best nickname anyone has yet to come up with for Fitzpatrick.

[KD in CA]

Once the beard is back, I'd say "The Caretaker" might actually be the best nickname anyone has yet to come up with for Fitzpatrick.

 

 

That's always been my thinking; he's not awful, he's not great. But he's adequate until they can find someone else. They should keep their eyes open for another QB, but they shouldn't sell the farm to get him. In the meantime, there are plenty of other holes to fill.

[jjmac]

That you need to go back more than a decade to find a counter example (and that one had one of the 3 best defensive teams EVER) only adds credibility to his point.

 

 

If the Bills are in position to draft a top QB prospect than they should do it. But they weren't in that position last year and they probably won't be this year either so the better move is to draft for other needs and live with a caretaker at QB.

 

His point was that the Bills would not make the playoffs with Fitzpatrick at QB. OK, let's go back to the most recent playoffs and TJ Yates, a rookie 5th-rounder. I don't think Fitz will win the super bowl, but I do think we can go to the playoffs with him. Gailey has made it with less.

Edited February 14, 2012 by jjmac

[BobChalmers]

 

You cant possibly think that this team can win anymore than 6 games with this guy at QB?

 

Saying something this clearly incorrect loses you nearly all credibility with some of your other points.

 

They just did win 6 games with him, despite a poor defense with the worst pass rush in the league, despite losing their starting Center, their only pro-bowler from the prior season, their starting SS, and their pro-bowl-bound starting RB.

 

I think Fitz is mediocre, and I agree the OL is much better than people give it credit for - but it is patently OBVIOUS that they CAN win more than 6 games with Fitz - all they need to do is repeat last season and not lose KW and Wood.

Edited February 14, 2012 by BobChalmers

[KD in CA]

His point was that the Bills would not make the playoffs with Fitzpatrick at QB. OK, let's go back to the most recent playoffs and TJ Yates, a rookie 5th-rounder. I don't think Fitz will win the super bowl, but I do think we can go to the playoffs with him. Gailey has made it with less.

 

Right, and I'm basically agreeing with him. Oh, it's possible (but unlikely) they could sneak into the 6th seed and get hammered in a wild card game, but there's no way Fitz leads a team with a real chance of reaching the Super Bowl.

 

So that's why I think they would be smart to draft a TJ Yates (although Houston didn't make the playoffs because of him -- they were miles ahead of the pack by the time he was the starter).

[Dan]

1329241519[/url]' post='2383005']

...

 

As far as the Eli Manning in a vacuum, I would say that I use him as the example because he is the QB of the team that just won the SUper Bowl and his stats prove that his Oline is downright lackluster and he still is able to thrive. Fitz has IMO, a top 3-5 Oline in the league and still is a bottom feeder on all the stat lines that hold significant value. The Link is from Football outsiders and I am a premium member. I dont kow why it wont let me post the link and I have emailed them telling them about this situation and I hope to have it rectified soon. In the mean time you will have to take my word at face value but I will post this link as soon as possible. For what its worth, Fitz' number from snap to release is 4.6 seconds. Hardly the 2-3 that people who defend him have tryed pointing out.

...

 

If your opinion of Fitz is predicated on this opinion, then I think you're evaluations are completely flawed. Although, I wouldn't say our Oline is the worst in the league, I find it hard to see how anyone could say we have one of the best 3-5 lines in the league.

Fitz has issues with his accuracy, certainly. And, he needs to work on that quite a bit this off season; however, at least a portion of that is due to the Oline allowing too much pressure. I might also add that throwing to UFA and the like makes his job considerably more difficult than Eli's (for one).