Tackling the "we need a LT" myth

[D2K]

Let me preface by saying Hello to all, I am a new poster to THIS particular Bills board, and I look forward to talking football with this board. I have been a regular on the BBMB on the official site for awhile now and the lack of knowledge there astounds me sometimes. I have been perusing this board and can safely say, that I am "in the right place". I sincerely hope that you enjoy my posts and I hope to have lengthy, knowledgable debates.

 

To the point, there is a myth that this team is "lacking" along the Oline and in particular at the LT spot. To be honest, I have to find that laughable. The real problem with this offense is the Quarterback.

 

Lets not forget the fact that the QB (I cant even say his name sometimes he makes me sick) was the LEAST sacked QB in the NFL this year, even after injuries at critical positions along the offensive front. Lets also add QB pressures to this equation, of which the Qb was ONLY pressured on 135 of his 569 dropbacks or a rate of every 4.2% of dropbacks. Lets compare that number to QB's who are considered to "have all day" behind great offensive lines.

 

Drew Brees - 174 pressured dropbacks

 

Tom Brady - 173 pressured dropbacks

 

Aaron Rodgers - 158 pressured dropbacks

 

Eli Manning - 244 pressured dropbacks (the WORST OLINE in the league, and they won a Super Bowl)

 

There are 14 QB's who started every game this year (E. Manning/Brees/Freeman/Ryan/Rivers/Newton/Flacco/Dalton/Brady/Stafford/A. Smith/Rodgers/Sanchez). There are also Qb's who missed 1-4 games and their Olines surrendered more pressures than that of our Bills they are Vick/Grossman/Mccoy/Romo/Tebow/T. Jackson/Roethlisberger/Bradford/Gabbert. That is 22 Qb's who faced more pressure than Fitzpatrick and 9 of them didnt play 16 games. Of the remaining 12 QB's who started this year only Matt Hasselbeck threw more then 300 times.

 

This Buffalo Bills Oline is one of the strongest units in the league, and they receive constant hatred from some that are too enamoured by a QB who is nothing more than a solid spot-duty BACKUP.

 

Not enough to make some of you believers in this Oline, and non-Billievers in the QB? Well how about this:

 

Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio when under pressure ranked him 3rd worst in the league and only Curtis Painter (1 TD/ 4 Ints) and Carson Palmer (2 TD's/ 10 Ints) were worse. Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio under pressure was 2 TD's/ 8 INts.

 

How about his completion % under pressure? Well Fitz ranked at the bottom of the league at that as well at an abysmal 43.6%, hitting only 44 out of 101 attempts.

 

ladies and Gentleman this is definitive proof of the QB being the issue and not the Offensive line.

 

Let me also add that this team was dead last in 3 and outs this year. look, I realize the defense could benefit greatly from a pass rusher (in fact a pass rusher should be the pick in 2 of the first 3 rounds), but fans overlook that when your offense is giving the ball back to the opposing team after ONLY 3 plays that doesnt allow for the defense to properly make in-game adjustments and talk with the coaches about scheme on the sideline.

 

We must address the QB situation with haste, if not this team will continue to be muddled in mediocrity.

Edited February 15, 2012 by D2K

[The Big Cat]

Let me preface by saying Hello to all, I am a new poster to THIS particular Bills board, and I look forward to talking football with this board. I have been a regular on the BBMB on the official site for awhile now and the lack of knowledge there astounds me sometimes. I have been perusing this board and can safely say, that I am "in the right place". I sincerely hope that you enjoy my posts and I hope to have lengthy, knowledgable debates.

 

To the point, there is a myth that this team is "lacking" along the Oline and in perticular at the LT spot. To be honest, I have to find that laughable. The real problem with this offense is the Quarterback.

 

Lets not forget the fact that the QB (I cant even say his name sometimes he makes me sick) was the LEAST sacked QB in the NFL this year, even after injuries at critical positions along the offensive front. Lets also add QB pressures to this equation, of which the Qb was ONLY pressured on 135 of his 569 dropbacks or a rate of every 4.2% of dropbacks. Lets compare that number to QB's who are considered to "have all day" behind great offensive lines.

 

Drew Brees - 174 pressured dropbacks

 

Tom Brady - 173 pressured dropbacks

 

Aaron Rodgers - 158 pressured dropbacks

 

Eli Manning - 244 pressured dropbacks (the WORST OLINE in the league, and they won a Super Bowl)

 

There are 14 QB's who started every game this year (E. Manning/Brees/Freeman/Ryan/Rivers/Newton/Flacco/Dalton/Brady/Stafford/A. Smith/Rodgers/Sanchez). There are also Qb's who missed 1-4 games and their Olines surrendered more pressures than that of our Bills they are Vick/Grossman/Mccoy/Romo/Tebow/T. Jackson/Roethlisberger/Bradford/Gabbert. That is 22 Qb's who faced more pressure than Fitzpatrick and 9 of them didnt play 16 games. Of the remaining 12 QB's who started this year only Matt Hasselbeck threw more then 300 times.

 

This Buffalo Bills Oline is one of the strongest units in the league, and they receive constant hatred from some that are too enamoured by a QB who is nothing more than a solid spot-duty BACKUP.

 

Not enough to make some of you believers in this Oline, and non-Billievers in the QB? Well how about this:

 

Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio when under pressure ranked him 3rd worst in the league and only Curtis Painter (1 TD/ 4 Ints) and Carson Palmer (2 TD's/ 10 Ints) were worse. Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio under pressure was 2 TD's/ 8 INts.

 

How about his completion % under pressure? Well Fitz ranked at the bottom of the league at that as well at an abysmal 43.6%, hitting only 44 out of 101 attempts.

 

ladies and Gentleman this is definitive proof of the QB being the issue and not the Offensive line.

 

Let me also add that this team was dead last in 3 and outs this year. look, I realize the defense could benefit greatly from a pass rusher (in fact a pass rusher should be the pick in 2 of the first 3 rounds), but fans overlook that when your offense is giving the ball back to the opposing team after ONLY 3 plays that doesnt allow for the defense to properly make in-game adjustments and talk with the coaches about scheme on the sideline.

 

We must address the QB situation with haste, if not this team will continue to be muddled in mediocrity.

 

Welcome aboard.

 

Your thesis is interesting. Your stats, not so much.

 

None of them account for the actual amount of time the quarterback holds the ball in the pocket.

 

Last year "pocket" was a relative term for Fitzpatrick.

[Bronc24]

Good post. Prepare to be brutally attacked by the Fitz lovers on this board with excuses such as:

 

- We lost FJ

- He's throwing to horrible WR's

- He played with cracked ribs, a bruised sternum and non-communicable leprosy (OK, I made that last one up)

 

They will ignore the fact that he has never been a QUALITY starter in all of his years, he cannot consistently throw an accurate deep ball or that we will never see a playoff game with him as a starting QB.

[DrDawkinstein]

Did you miss all the talk about how Chan crafted this offense to make up for the lack of protection? No long dropbacks, quick throws with the ball being delivered at a count of 2 or 3. It was obviously the case once teams started figuring that out and jamming our WRs at the line. Re-watch the games and count how long Fitz has before he is pressured. It usually doesnt last to a 4 count, and it certainly NEVER lasts as long as guys like Brady, Brees, and Eli have. There are many times when those other QBs can stand back there for 5, 6 and even 7 seconds unpressured.

 

I dont necessarily think Fitz is the savior, but those OLine stats are BECAUSE of him, not in spite of him.

 

You argue against yourself by pointing out:

 

Lets not forget the fact that the QB was the LEAST sacked QB in the NFL this year, even after injuries at critical positions along the offensive front.

 

To say we weren't lacking at LT last year means you are ignoring that our starting LT was out for most of the season, and even the backup/rookie LT was injured. Also, that same starting LT is a Free Agent and currently not technically on the roster. So whether you want to re-sign the oft-injured Bell, or bring in new, better talent, the Bills definitely need an LT.

 

Go Bills!

[section122]

This has been a heated argument for a while now. Some people lean on Fitz's injured ribs as an excuse, some blame the injuries around him, some blame a lack of receiving talent, some blame him for sucking, and yet others say it is the o-lines fault and they only look good because he gets the ball out so fast.

 

I fall into the camp of him not being very good. Yes he had injuries and was injured. I don't mind the idea of him starting this year but would like a backup plan in place in case he sucks again (and not Thigpen). Unfortunately with his contract it will be another year of him at the helm. This year only has the 2 qbs in the draft and it will take a ransom to get one. Next year however has a few that will be worth watching (Bray UT, Jones OU, Barkley USC, and Murray UGA).

 

All in all this is a great board and I'll pass on some friendly advice:

1. Never ever and I mean ever engage in a serious conversation with ieatcrayonz. You'll thank me later. He/she is a troll and for some reason loved on this board.

2. Never ever and I mean ever click on.... wait I won't ruin that one it's too enjoyable

 

Welcome!

[D2K]

Welcome aboard.

 

Your thesis is interesting. Your stats, not so much.

 

None of them account for the actual amount of time the quarterback holds the ball in the pocket.

 

Last year "pocket" was a relative term for Fitzpatrick.

 

Appreciate it.

 

Let me ask you this: How much time does a QB need to go through his progressions and make the right read?

 

Eli Manning (who just on the Super Bowl mind you) led the league for the shortest time in the pocket at 3.8 seconds from snap to release. Again, his team jsut won the Super bowl.

 

Gaileys offense, hell the league in general is predicated on 3-5 step drops and YAC yardage, attacking the short and intermediate zones and having QB's who are capable of pin-point accuracy to run these offenses. Fitz accuracy is an abomination of epic proportions. He is completely reliant on his first read being his ONLY choice, which explains why he was the league leader in INTs.

 

You cant possibly think that this team can win anymore than 6 games with this guy at QB?

Edited February 14, 2012 by D2K

[CodeMonkey]

Welcome aboard.

 

Your thesis is interesting. Your stats, not so much.

 

None of them account for the actual amount of time the quarterback holds the ball in the pocket.

 

Last year "pocket" was a relative term for Fitzpatrick.

I agree completely. The reason why the numbers cited look so good is because of all the short passes called (one would think because of a lack of confidence in either the O line, the QB's arm, or both). The QBs that "have all day" to throw, generally do. They drop back in the pocket and stay there surveying the field. Fitz did that rarely, and when he did he usually ended up running for his life.

 

From my perspective, the Bills O line didn't suck, but they weren't one of the strongest in the league either.

Likewise I love Fitz's toughness and brain. But I find his arm lacking.

Ultimately, in my opinion, both will need upgrades before they scare anyone in the post season.

Edited February 14, 2012 by CodeMonkey

[papazoid]

first, welcome to the board, enjoy !!

 

second, i have to strongly disagree with you.

 

 

Fitzpatrick made the O-Line look good because he threw the ball in under 3 seconds. thats all the time he had before protection broke down. the Bills have the WORST two starting offensive tackles in the league. other than wood (at center) and levitre (at left guard only) the whole unit is not good enough. It would not surprise me in the least if they used their first round pick on a LT....Martin from Stanford the way i see the draft falling. i know a pass rush is what everyone is clamoring for, but it may already be on the roster if Merriman can get healthy, he was a beast in preseason and got injured in first regular season game.

 

as far as Fitz goes. the bills were 5-2 thru the washington game where fitz got his ribs broken by London Fletcher. they were 1-8 after that. Fitz is the least of our problems. a pass rush and o line protection is a much bigger problem. Fitz may not be a "franchise QB" , but in my opinion is a Top 20 QB.

[jjmac]

Good post. Prepare to be brutally attacked by the Fitz lovers on this board with excuses such as:

 

- We lost FJ

- He's throwing to horrible WR's

- He played with cracked ribs, a bruised sternum and non-communicable leprosy (OK, I made that last one up)

 

They will ignore the fact that he has never been a QUALITY starter in all of his years, he cannot consistently throw an accurate deep ball or that we will never see a playoff game with him as a starting QB.

 

Isn't that what Ravens fans said about Trent Dilfer?

[Bronc24]

Isn't that what Ravens fans said about Trent Dilfer?

 

When Fitz gets to the playoffs, let alone wins a SB, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

[T master]

First off let me welcome you to TBD we need more people with a more realistic view & thoughts on pro football , although if you are looking for a greater mind set of football you will no doubt at times still be scratching your head at some posts , But Welcome !!

 

I will agree that Fitz is not a franchise QB & that i think hind site has told us that we should have waited to put out the kind of money the Bills did to keep him & could have saved a bunch by waiting ..

 

But i believe this year we will get our franchise QB in a late rounder like a Brock Osweiler or a Brandon Weeden .. Osweiler would have more longevity but Weeden will be able to win with less time on the side line while watching Fitz & if he has another year like the last the fans won't have nearly as hard a time of pulling Fitz to try the young guy , and as far as the age thing Fitz & Weeden are at the same age so if he would be that much of an upgrade WHY NOT ..

 

I think this years draft we will see Buddy & company do what they did last year & add more good players that will put us in the play offs & give us even more depth to stay there , but for now the Fitz thing (all but the money) makes a lot of sense with the direction that Nix is headed in regards to the team ..

Edited February 14, 2012 by T master

[The Big Cat]

Appreciate it.

 

Let me ask you this: How much time does a QB need to go through his progressions and make the right read?

 

Eli Manning (who just on the Super Bowl mind you) led the league for the shortest time in the pocket at 3.8 seconds from snap to release. Again, his team jsut won the Super bowl.

 

Gaileys offense, hell the league in general is predicated on 3-5 step drops and YAC yardage, attacking the short and intermediate zones and having QB's who are capable of pin-point accuracy to run these offenses. Fitz accuracy is an abomination of epic proportions. He is completely reliant on his first read being his ONLY choice, which explains why he was the league leader in INTs.

 

You cant possibly think that this team can win anymore than 6 games with this guy at QB?

 

To answer your question: less than a second--as Fitz (better than most QB's I'd argue) demonstrates. But, we're not talking about progressions here. As you rightly point out, the entire offense is designed for quick ROUTES. When Big Ben lingers lingers lingers in the pocket, it's not because he's trying to decide who to pass to, it's because he's got receivers working the defenders DOWN field. Fitz has neither the time, nor Ben's pocket scrambling ability to do so. With regards to the latter--few quarterbacks of the past decade have, I'd argue.

 

I'm not sure why you mentioned Eli in a vacuum. Can you please link to a full list of "time in pocket" stats? I'd be very curious to see them.

 

As for Fitz's accuracy, I think you're flat out wrong. His accuracy CAN be an abomination, at other times it's positively stunning. If you've never seen him thread the ball through three defenders, across the middle of the field, to where only the receiver can get it, then you're spending too much time with your nose in the stat sheet, and not enough time actually watching the games.

 

His accuracy suffers the most when he's pressured. Period. His accuracy nears miraculous levels when he has...time to throw. He rarely, IF EVER, throws a real whopper when there's nobody in his face, and has time and space to actually step up and make a throw.

 

To his credit, these conditions are rare--hence the quick-design of Gailey's offense we all seem to acknowledge as being the holistic reality of this argument. And what's the catalyst for this design? The cause? The rationale? A: an offensive line that can't provide adequate protection.

 

We're playing survivor football out there.

[Bronc24]

However, I will point out that at 10, there is no way we can pick a QB. Unless we trade up to pick in the top 2, we have to hope that we luck out on a late round pick to be the successor.

[CBD]

I would say the Bills need an LT because they one they had starting last year is a free agent.

[dollars 2 donuts]

This has been a heated argument for a while now. Some people lean on Fitz's injured ribs as an excuse, some blame the injuries around him, some blame a lack of receiving talent, some blame him for sucking, and yet others say it is the o-lines fault and they only look good because he gets the ball out so fast.

 

I fall into the camp of him not being very good. Yes he had injuries and was injured. I don't mind the idea of him starting this year but would like a backup plan in place in case he sucks again (and not Thigpen). Unfortunately with his contract it will be another year of him at the helm. This year only has the 2 qbs in the draft and it will take a ransom to get one. Next year however has a few that will be worth watching (Bray UT, Jones OU, Barkley USC, and Murray UGA).

 

All in all this is a great board and I'll pass on some friendly advice:

1. Never ever and I mean ever engage in a serious conversation with ieatcrayonz. You'll thank me later. He/she is a troll and for some reason loved on this board.

2. Never ever and I mean ever click on.... wait I won't ruin that one it's too enjoyable

 

Welcome!

 

 

crayonz has serious conversations?

 

 

[Maddog69]

I dont necessarily think Fitz is the savior, but those OLine stats are BECAUSE of him, not in spite of him.

 

Go Bills!

 

 

These two quotes sum up my opinion on this subject

[bananathumb]

Welcome, but don't expect much love from the Fitz lovers here. They like his beard too much to listen to football arguments.

[dpberr]

I would say the Bills need an LT because they one they had starting last year is a free agent.

 

+1. If they don't resign him, they will need to replace him regardless of the quarterback.

 

I wouldn't use the #10 for an LT unless the second coming of Anthony Munoz is waiting at the podium.

[jjmac]

When Fitz gets to the playoffs, let alone wins a SB, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

 

Please don't tell me you think they got to the playoffs on Dilfer alone.

[metzelaars_lives]

Good post. Prepare to be brutally attacked by the Fitz lovers on this board with excuses such as:

 

- We lost FJ

- He's throwing to horrible WR's

- He played with cracked ribs, a bruised sternum and non-communicable leprosy (OK, I made that last one up)

 

They will ignore the fact that he has never been a QUALITY starter in all of his years, he cannot consistently throw an accurate deep ball or that we will never see a playoff game with him as a starting QB.

 

I thought he was pretty good through the first seven games this year, when he was named AFC offensive player of the month for September. How quickly people forget how he looked against the Chiefs, Raiders, Patriots and the Redskins.

 

That being said, I agree with the original poster that relative to the rest of the league our offensive line is way better than our QB. I think we have a top ten OL right now with everyone healthy and MAYBE a top 20 starting QB.

Edited February 14, 2012 by metzelaars_lives