Jim in Anchorage Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Only partially. Strip away the ridiculous histrionics, and there's a valid point as to the validity of considering the "War on Terror" a true war or an international law enforcement activity, and what the extent of the "battlefield" is. Suffice to say, "due process" has no place in Tora Bora, just as JDAM strikes have no place Kansas...but at some point between those there is a gray area, where people are effectively "parked" at Gitmo until someone figures out just what exactly their legal status is. As Obama obviously found out when he took office, there's no clean and easy solution. I just picture drones patroling the skys of Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Only partially. Strip away the ridiculous histrionics, and there's a valid point as to the validity of considering the "War on Terror" a true war or an international law enforcement activity, and what the extent of the "battlefield" is. Suffice to say, "due process" has no place in Tora Bora, just as JDAM strikes have no place Kansas...but at some point between those there is a gray area, where people are effectively "parked" at Gitmo until someone figures out just what exactly their legal status is. As Obama obviously found out when he took office, there's no clean and easy solution. The naivete of Candidate Obama was galling. And I have no confidence that he's learned enough about reality to do much else than pray our military is competent enough to guide his hand. As for providing policy direction, what we have is an Afghanistan surge that he took longer to decide on a course and an arbitrary number of troops (a number that turned out to not be what brass said was needed to be effective) than letting the surge do its work before announcing that we'd be drawing it down. The failure of the Supercommittee showed he (as with all Democrats) sees the major way to more closely balance the budget in the short term and debt in the long term is by dismantling the military and screwing over our veterans. Edited February 12, 2012 by UConn James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I'm nearly always in agreement with you but in this case not so much. lyrbob has the tendency to make weak points and then refuse to defend them. When called out he runs and hides like the drive-bi liberal he is. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying his ideas are consistent with each other. I'm just giving his credit for not engaging in the selective outrage most of his fellow libs have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfatbillsfan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Only partially. Strip away the ridiculous histrionics, and there's a valid point as to the validity of considering the "War on Terror" a true war or an international law enforcement activity, and what the extent of the "battlefield" is. Suffice to say, "due process" has no place in Tora Bora, just as JDAM strikes have no place Kansas...but at some point between those there is a gray area, where people are effectively "parked" at Gitmo until someone figures out just what exactly their legal status is. As Obama obviously found out when he took office, there's no clean and easy solution. Not to mention the fact that there were quite a few nation calling for the closing of Gitmo but refused to allow prisoners to be expedited to their country after it was closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 But somehow, it was much more of a moral outrage issue when G.W was in office. How strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Not so strange really. It's hard to rule in the real world. [/jauronfail] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinga Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I just picture drones patroling the skys of Kansas Y'all need to pay more attention to the news.... Not Kansas Dorothy, but how 'bout the Dakota's??? http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/10/nation/la-na-drone-arrest-20111211 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Reality took the sails out of his wind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfatbillsfan Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Y'all need to pay more attention to the news.... Not Kansas Dorothy, but how 'bout the Dakota's??? http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/10/nation/la-na-drone-arrest-20111211 Well, someone has to make sure the Canadians aren't jumping the fence and running across the boarder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Well, someone has to make sure the Canadians aren't jumping the fence and running across the boarder. Why would Canadians run across some guy that is paying rent to stay in the BOARDING HOUSE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Mistakes definitely happen. In fact, in the spirit of "if you see something, say something". I think you may be a spy. I think you should be reported to the authorities. Using your logic, you are safe because "they" don't make mistakes. Want to test it out? If they do make a mistake, you will get no due process. Of course you will say that it will never happen. Seriously though, more people need to think things through rather than being so hell bent on killing people at the drop of a hat. You misunderstand...woefully. Somebody has to do the killing on behalf of this country, whether you like it or not is irrelevant. These are serious decisions for serious people. The only relevant questions are: who does it and how. I want the threat much more than I want the actual deployment of the ordinance. We cannot possibly hope to achieve 100% success rate with air power. Actually, we'd be lucky to even get 30%. However, we can make the bad guys keep looking up, keep hiding, and being scared, all the time. The deterrence is the play here. That and it hinders their operations, and, there is no doubt in their minds that the gloves are off. Now they know that we can hit them where they live, just like Japan learned. The difference is: now we have a much more elegant solution that doesn't kill everyone around them, it just kills them. And, nobody cares what you think. That's why it's called "credible threat". That's also why it's called "clear and present danger". These words mean things, and have been defined as legal standards that must be met by the executive branch. In order to see if the standard has been met, a ton of people have to be involved, including members of Congress. That means if something isn't kosher, somebody WILL tell. That, and every officer involved has taken an oath to protect the Constitution from enemies, foreign, and domestic, not the Administration. EDIT: Look at what's happening with Fast and Furious. Those ATF agents have all ruined their careers, but they retained their honor because they upheld their oath. Their oath is job #1. They told. Not only because it's the right thing for the ATF and the country, it's the right thing for them. These are how MILITARY operations are run, and that's what these drone strikes are. Due process is a legal standard for criminals. There are no criminal considerations here, because terrorism isn't a criminal activity. It's warfare, and must be dealt with as warfare. Someday, heads will be extracted from asses, and the acceptance of this reality will occur. Finally, you blatantly aren't aware of just how much thought goes into any operation...when it isn't being hindered from above. People's careers are on the line, and there is 0 tolerance for mistakes. You think some Air Force Colonel isn't absolutely sure his orders are legal and correct before he orders the shot? Christ, our guys in Afghanistan have had to wait for hours and hours to get air strikes authorized, precisely because 2 flag officers have to sign off, and often have to cancel because the enemy is long gone, or there's even a minute chance of civilian casualties(which we learned to be smarter about from Viet Nam)...but you think, "we need to think things through"...more? WTF do you think is going on with orders moving up and down 2 separate chains of command, who will all be RIFed for 1 mistake? Opinions are fine. Uninformed opinions are a waste of time. Edited February 14, 2012 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Statements like this should creep anybody right the f--- out. Have to say, I totally agree with you. It's that type of thinking (or lack thereof) that is letting this govt get out of control and restrict our freedoms. This type of "reason" defies logic in my opinion. It's downright disturbing how many people are willing to give up rights. They assume that it's not their rights they are giving up, and that's the problem. They don't realize that by saying it's okay to give up another individual's rights that they are in fact agreeing to give up their own in the process. I've had conversations with people that are okay with the TSA and other ridiculous airport security procedures because "it's making them safe" and they "aren't doing anything wrong" so they don't care about those stringent, ineffective procedures. When I tell them that they are willingly giving up their freedom they say they don't mind as long as they are safe. :wallbash: People need to look at the big picture. However, it seems that in this instant gratification age that we now live in it is extremely difficult for individuals to do so. So, apparently the choice to betray your country, and actively seek it's destruction, means you haven't made a choice to give up the rights it provides you and everyone else? What about the rights of the people you are betraying? Their right to life, liberty, etc. doesn't apply? That's the "reason" that defies logic here. The American citizen who got drone striked made a choice. Choices like that have consequences. Don't want to get drone striked? Don't be a traitor. Don't want to be excoriated and forcibly retired immediately, or imprisoned for following an illegal order? Don't drone strike the wrong people, or go along with something you know is wrong. Again, choices = consequences. Ollie North went to jail, didn't he? He forgot that his oath was to the Constitution. Period. It's really quite straightforward if you actually think about it objectively. You think talking about the TSA....is an example of "looking at the big picture"? Only partially. Strip away the ridiculous histrionics, and there's a valid point as to the validity of considering the "War on Terror" a true war or an international law enforcement activity, and what the extent of the "battlefield" is. Suffice to say, "due process" has no place in Tora Bora, just as JDAM strikes have no place Kansas...but at some point between those there is a gray area, where people are effectively "parked" at Gitmo until someone figures out just what exactly their legal status is. As Obama obviously found out when he took office, there's no clean and easy solution. Histrionic for you, maybe. Or, am I simply trying to educate the clueless by using certain words a certain way? I'll leave that to you to determine. As I said, some day heads will be extracted from asses and we will finally be able to accept the reality that is right in front of our faces: this is a war, not a criminal proceeding. On the positive side, the great thing about America is that, as we see above, most people get to spend their entire lives being completely clueless about these realities. That's a testament to just how strong we really are, and I like that we have created a place where lots of nice people don't have to get their hands dirty. But make no mistake, the weak's existence is provided for them by those that know these realities quite well. And their "big picture" analysis and the freedom to spew this silliness? Yes, even that is worth defending. Edited February 14, 2012 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Histrionic for you, maybe. Or, am I simply trying to educate the clueless by using certain words a certain way? Yeah. Histrionically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yeah. Histrionically. Yeah. Histrionically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 So, apparently the choice to betray your country, and actively seek it's destruction, means you haven't made a choice to give up the rights it provides you and everyone else? What about the rights of the people you are betraying? Their right to life, liberty, etc. doesn't apply? That's the "reason" that defies logic here. The American citizen who got drone striked made a choice. Choices like that have consequences. Don't want to get drone striked? Don't be a traitor. Don't want to be excoriated and forcibly retired immediately, or imprisoned for following an illegal order? Don't drone strike the wrong people, or go along with something you know is wrong. Again, choices = consequences. Ollie North went to jail, didn't he? He forgot that his oath was to the Constitution. Period. It's really quite straightforward if you actually think about it objectively. You think talking about the TSA....is an example of "looking at the big picture"? Histrionic for you, maybe. Or, am I simply trying to educate the clueless by using certain words a certain way? I'll leave that to you to determine. As I said, some day heads will be extracted from asses and we will finally be able to accept the reality that is right in front of our faces: this is a war, not a criminal proceeding. On the positive side, the great thing about America is that, as we see above, most people get to spend their entire lives being completely clueless about these realities. That's a testament to just how strong we really are, and I like that we have created a place where lots of nice people don't have to get their hands dirty. But make no mistake, the weak's existence is provided for them by those that know these realities quite well. And their "big picture" analysis and the freedom to spew this silliness? Yes, even that is worth defending. No, he didn't, but please find a way to tear into someone over something anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Ollie North went to jail, didn't he? Looks like someone needs to brush up on their Ollie North! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juxm4P4fnq8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying his ideas are consistent with each other. I'm just giving his credit for not engaging in the selective outrage most of his fellow libs have. C'mon Rob...if it wasn't for selective moral outrage, there would be no PPP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phypon Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 So, apparently the choice to betray your country, and actively seek it's destruction, means you haven't made a choice to give up the rights it provides you and everyone else? What about the rights of the people you are betraying? Their right to life, liberty, etc. doesn't apply? That's my point which you are overlooking in your response. I mean, it's right there in the first couple of sentences I wrote. Also, you mention the constitution, which makes me think you believe in it, yet you have no problem trampling on the constitution giving up your privacy (along with every citizen of this country). You make no sense. You took my words out of context and then repackaged them as if they were your own. But, hey, according to you my opinion is "uninformed", lol. I would explain my point about my first post in this thread, but I know you won't even try to understand what I write and my explanation will simply fall on deaf ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'll just throw this in here. Take it FWIW http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/february_2012/59_of_catholics_disapprove_of_obama_s_job_performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'll just throw this in here. Take it FWIW http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/february_2012/59_of_catholics_disapprove_of_obama_s_job_performance Perhaps the polling data was collected before February 10th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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