/dev/null Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Bless those Chinese for their noble sacrifice. Making those iPad's and iPhone's on which our fellow Americans can tweet and blog about how awful conditions are in the United States for the 99% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Typical leftist thinking: it's all or nothing. If someone wants to discuss value for minimum wage, it means they want to get rid of it. If someone wants to discuss value for overtime pay or workers compen, it means they want to get rid of all of it. If you want people to have a conversation where no one is insulted, stop begging for insults. It's not all or nothing, but I can assure you this much: even if you DID gut things like minimum wage or no provisions for breaks, that doesn't mean they go away. It only means they go away for people who are crappy workers. Smart employers will compete for smart and hardworking employees, and they do this by offering not just better-than-average pay, but also better-than-average benefits which, in many cases, don't contribute heavily to overhead but still provide value over their competition. Some may offer a 401K, or a low-cost cafeteria, or day care, or financial incentives for exceeding goals. The liberals problem with this is that everyone wouldn't get their fair share, and only regulation will ensure that everyone get their fair share, even if they don't deserve it. Funny. All I heard during the health care debate was "competition" will bring the costs down. But when it comes to employment...oh, no! If we leave it to competition, all employers will reduce pay to a dollar an hour, gut benefits, remove breaks and sit in a big tower smoking cigars while laughing at all the little people. As I've said before, it's amazing to me that Republicans are so ignorant and undisciplined that every 20 or 30 years they manage to screw up so badly as to make Americans think the liberal way of governing somehow makes any sense at all. All I asked for was a number by number discussion since he made it clear that China had a good deal going, whether or not he was joking is beside the point. My point is that if capitalism unchecked is the ultimate goal of corporations and draws support, where will the abuses end? I NEVER said all or nothing, otherwise I would not have taken the time to break it down line by line as to how China attracts business. They do it in Africa, where African leaders will take the money over the welfare of its people. We're not Africa, and so China is trying to dominate the slave labor market- shocker. We're complicit in this venture, and so I'm just pointing out what happens when we allow it to happen, no matter the corporation, it is an affront to the senses. I'm not begging for insults, for to debate a topic, sticking to the subject matter, is somthing I just don't see and don't expect to last very long. We'll see. Edited February 7, 2012 by BmoreBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 All I asked for was a number by number discussion since he made it clear that China had a good deal going, whether or not he was joking is beside the point. My point is that if capitalism unchecked is the ultimate goal of corporations and draws support, where will the abuses end? I NEVER said all or nothing, otherwise I would not have taken the time to break it down line by line as to how China attracts business. They do it in Africa, where African leaders will take the money over the welfare of its people. We're not Africa, and so China is trying to dominate the slave labor market- shocker. We're complicit in this venture, and so I'm just pointing out what happens when we allow it to happen, no matter the corporation, it is an affront to the senses. I'm not begging for insults, for to debate a topic, sticking to the subject matter, is somthing I just don't see and don't expect to last very long. We'll see. Hard to leave insults out when arguing against a strawman. The point was brought up before. You may think that Chinese are using slave labor because you're sitting in an ivory tower that was built by 150 yrs of industrialization & capitalism in the US which gives us the highest standards of living in the world. Instead of slaves, US used immigrants to work the industrial revolution. Yet, people like you never look at the situation of why people would abandon their ancestral homes for the opportunity to be exploited. The immigrants' incentive was very clear, get the hell out of their home countries and get an opportunity to build a life and earn money for food. Nobody would brave an ocean crossing in the hold of a ship among rats if the opportunity in the US wasn't much better than the homeland. That is the perfect parallel why rural Chinese are abandoning the hinterland to be "slaves" for Foxconn. You're not willing to examine their lives if they don't have the opportunity to work in a sweatshop. How much food & shelter they can provide to their families and how many suicides would occur without that job. Your only objective is to place Chinese workers on the same standard as Westernized workers as if 150 years' of the capitalist vs socialist experiment never happened. Now China is trying hard to catch up, and guess what's happening? Wages are rising, benefits are increasing. Imagine that. I know that you want to attribute all of that to collectivism & unionization. But unions of the late 19th, early 20th centuries provided value to workers by giving them more information about the job conditions, wages, etc. There are far more effective ways for workers to get information these days, and why unions are an anachronism. I also love the paternalistic stereotype that all workers are simpleton rubes who couldn't survive on their own without the helping hand of the well meaning liberals who probably never managed people under them or ever had responsibility for a real budget. With qualifications like that, you can become President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 All I asked for was a number by number discussion since he made it clear that China had a good deal going, whether or not he was joking is beside the point. My point is that if capitalism unchecked is the ultimate goal of corporations and draws support, where will the abuses end? I NEVER said all or nothing, otherwise I would not have taken the time to break it down line by line as to how China attracts business. They do it in Africa, where African leaders will take the money over the welfare of its people. We're not Africa, and so China is trying to dominate the slave labor market- shocker. We're complicit in this venture, and so I'm just pointing out what happens when we allow it to happen, no matter the corporation, it is an affront to the senses. Ah yes, can't have a debate without throwing in the always popular "unchecked capitalism" soundbite. No 'all or nothing' in that comment; not to mention no evidence to back it up. Ooooohhhhhh scary!!! Unchecked evil corporations!!! Save us Obama!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 All I asked for was a number by number discussion since he made it clear that China had a good deal going, whether or not he was joking is beside the point. My point is that if capitalism unchecked is the ultimate goal of corporations and draws support, where will the abuses end? I NEVER said all or nothing, otherwise I would not have taken the time to break it down line by line as to how China attracts business. They do it in Africa, where African leaders will take the money over the welfare of its people. We're not Africa, and so China is trying to dominate the slave labor market- shocker. We're complicit in this venture, and so I'm just pointing out what happens when we allow it to happen, no matter the corporation, it is an affront to the senses. I'm not begging for insults, for to debate a topic, sticking to the subject matter, is somthing I just don't see and don't expect to last very long. We'll see. 1. What abuses? How Foxconn employees, all 1.2 million of them, are being denied the glitz and glamour of subsistence farming? 2. How can you reasonably compare the Chinese labor force to a continent? Which country in Africa, in your estimation, is attracting business by providing a massive, educated and literate workforce ideal for mass production of technology? 3. What do government abuses in the continent of Africa have to do with anything? 4. Slave labor? Foxconn employees earn about $300 a month compared to the average manufacturing monthly haul of about $200 in China. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/business/global/08wages.html 5. We are totally complicit in this thing called the global economy. China is leveraging their competitive advantage to become a manufacturing power. I know you think this is evil, so how do you propose China makes the leap from industrial revolution to self-righteous service economy overnight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfatbillsfan Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 1. What abuses? How Foxconn employees, all 1.2 million of them, are being denied the glitz and glamour of subsistence farming? 2. How can you reasonably compare the Chinese labor force to a continent? Which country in Africa, in your estimation, is attracting business by providing a massive, educated and literate workforce ideal for mass production of technology? 3. What do government abuses in the continent of Africa have to do with anything? 4. Slave labor? Foxconn employees earn about $300 a month compared to the average manufacturing monthly haul of about $200 in China. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/business/global/08wages.html 5. We are totally complicit in this thing called the global economy. China is leveraging their competitive advantage to become a manufacturing power. I know you think this is evil, so how do you propose China makes the leap from industrial revolution to self-righteous service economy overnight? You don't seem to have any clue as to what he was even saying in that statement do you? The way these workers are being treated would be illegal here in the United States. They are systematically abused and have no recourse. Hence the reason you see so many suicides. Is 300 dollars a month worth the use of your hands after the age of 35? Will they make the leap overnight. No. But if you want to help them along how about we refuse to import items from any nation that does not practice safe labor. That takes away their competitive edge and brings manufacturing jobs back to the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Damn those Chinese and their "unchecked" communist policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) You don't seem to have any clue as to what he was even saying in that statement do you? The way these workers are being treated would be illegal here in the United States. They are systematically abused and have no recourse. Hence the reason you see so many suicides. Is 300 dollars a month worth the use of your hands after the age of 35? Will they make the leap overnight. No. But if you want to help them along how about we refuse to import items from any nation that does not practice safe labor. That takes away their competitive edge and brings manufacturing jobs back to the United States. I understood his rambling disjointed attempt at a point completely. Clearly, you did not. 1. They have all the recourse in the world. They can quit. But instead of quit, they flock in droves to Foxconn becuase its better than the alternatives. 2. With 1.2 million employees, there has been no proof that the suicide incidence is greater than that of the population and therefore your causality is pure speculation. China's suicide rate is already among the highest in the world, and 12 suicides at Foxconn isn't moving the needle. 3. I don't live in China and that isn't my best option to make a living. I won the birth lottery just like you and Bmore did. Difference is, I'm not crying about it. 4. You're plan to help Foxconn employees by rendering them unemployed and shipping their jobs to the US is intriguing. You care about these people so much that you'd rather see them without jobs than earning an above average wage? You continue to try and compare a different culture, with different values, in a developing economy, with an entirely different cost of living, to the United States. Your whole aimless point rests on some pretty loose moral equivalency. I'll let you try and reconcile your bleeding heart for the Chinese worker with your desire to see them all lose their jobs. Competitive advantage, our current standard of living and the global economy will have to wait until you can at least comprehend the above. (Hint: Can you afford an LED tv, a smart phone, tablet, laptop, GPS, etc. without cheap foreign labor? Can the global economy acheive the same level of production without the competitive advantages of cheap abundant labor?) Edited February 7, 2012 by Jauronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ah yes, can't have a debate without throwing in the always popular "unchecked capitalism" soundbite. No 'all or nothing' in that comment; not to mention no evidence to back it up. Ooooohhhhhh scary!!! Unchecked evil corporations!!! Save us Obama!!! Without corporate sponsorship what would every form of entertainment we have now look like? Also I thank many corporations for moving in to the the neighborhood where I currently live to make it the great place it is today compared to how crappy it was 20-30 years ago. Thank you Pac Bell (Now AT&T), thank you Adobe, thank you Dolby, thank you SEGA, thank you Yelp, thank you Twitter, thank you Google and the most recent thank you to Zynga. Oh those evil, evil corporations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 4. You're plan to help Foxconn employees by rendering them unemployed and shipping their jobs to the US is intriguing. You care about these people so much that you'd rather see them without jobs than earning an above average wage? Never mind the basic economics that those jobs wouldn't be filled in the US, as US workers command much higher wages to make those products profitable (ie - buying a subsidized iPhone for $200 vs a subsidized iPhone for $500) or if manufacturing does return to the US, it will be mostly automated so you wouldn't pick up the same number of low skilled jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Those Chinese have it easy. Now is how to work an assembly line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Typical absolutist thinking that leads to absolutist policy on display here. This thinking doesn't allow for the possibility that the Chinese workers wake up one day and decide whether selling their labor so cheaply and at great risk is worth it. It is after all the Chinese workers business and their problems to solve. It also doesn't allow for some Chinese middle manager to wake up one day and think of a way to convince upper management to improve conditions in a cost effective manner at his line, and if they work, share the ideas with others and let them modify them to their needs. NO! The only way to improve conditions for everyone the same way, at the same level, because of course they all have the same job, and the same risks ...is 2k pages of sweeping, comprehensive, top-down, one-size-fits-all regulations. It all has to come from the government and it all has to absolute and it all has to be defined and managed by the bureaucracy, because they know better, dammit! All of you: what % of ALL effective, lasting change comes from the top of your organizations, what % comes from the middle, and what % comes from the bottom? Those CEOs among you: be honest. Just a quick exercise to show BMoreBills how silly his premises are. Edited February 8, 2012 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_In_Norfolk Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 They don't have the right to vote...no freedom of expression...no liberal media...no right to assemble, or protest, to strike, they have it worse that the poor workers in our country 100 years ago. Teddy stepped up for the Anthrecite Coal miners 110 years ago, that won't happen in China. Sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) They don't have the right to vote...no freedom of expression...no liberal media...no right to assemble, or protest, to strike, they have it worse that the poor workers in our country 100 years ago. Teddy stepped up for the Anthrecite Coal miners 110 years ago, that won't happen in China. Sad Actually they do have the right to assemble and protest in mainland China, albeit it with government permission, and since strikes have been prevalent across China over the past few years as Chinese laborers have halted production and demanded the same level of pay won by Foxconn employees, I'd say the above is just another example of your special brand of ignorance. Sad indeed, Dave. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/7818406/China-faces-wave-of-strikes-after-Foxconn-pay-rise.html Edited February 8, 2012 by Jauronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 They don't have the right to vote...no freedom of expression...no liberal media...no right to assemble, or protest, to strike, they have it worse that the poor workers in our country 100 years ago. Teddy stepped up for the Anthrecite Coal miners 110 years ago, that won't happen in China. Sad I think it's great. More power to us One Percenters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 They don't have the right to vote...no freedom of expression...no liberal media...no right to assemble, or protest, to strike, they have it worse that the poor workers in our country 100 years ago. Teddy stepped up for the Anthrecite Coal miners 110 years ago, that won't happen in China. Sad More proof DiN is a Conservative troll. No die hard liberal like he claims to be would use that phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 They don't have the right to vote...no freedom of expression...no liberal media...no right to assemble, or protest, to strike, they have it worse that the poor workers in our country 100 years ago. Teddy stepped up for the Anthrecite Coal miners 110 years ago, that won't happen in China. Sad Don't waste your time... I finally decided to quit this hard line conservative love-fest and found a great forum to debate in WITHOUT all of these incessant insults, a balanced forum. Only on the Bills forum for me now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Don't waste your time... I finally decided to quit this hard line conservative love-fest and found a great forum to debate in WITHOUT all of these incessant insults, a balanced forum. Only on the Bills forum for me now... But the insults are the best part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Don't waste your time... I finally decided to quit this hard line conservative love-fest and found a great forum to debate in WITHOUT all of these incessant insults, a balanced forum. Only on the Bills forum for me now... Really? You debate? When did this happen, because you never showed yourself capable of intelligent discussion here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Really? You debate? When did this happen, because you never showed yourself capable of intelligent discussion here. Remember the health insurance debate? I provided lots of information on the bill, spoke about it at length and in substance. When Bmore decided to chime in, he would try to refute what I was saying, when I responded and made my case and explained to him in detail to why he was wrong, he responded by placing me on ignore. So much for "debate" Edited February 10, 2012 by Magox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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