TheBrownBear Posted February 5, 2012 Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) the kennedy pick sticks out like a sore thumb. He was a good d-lineman...not great. I'm not sure andre really belongs in the hof but he sure as hell does before cortez kennedy. the roaf and dawson picks are solid. Doleman was great. He was the second best defensive end in the league in that 87-93 period behind bruce smith. I thought curtis martin was a marginal candidate, and definitely not a first ballot guy. I guess he got in due to longevity at his position and the stats he racked up over the years. But we faced him twice a year for over a decade and he was never for a second a guy who really scared you with his talent. Not sure how he gets in over tim brown or cris carter...but what do I know. Edited February 5, 2012 by TheBrownBear
NoSaint Posted February 5, 2012 Posted February 5, 2012 the kennedy pick sticks out like a sore thumb. He was a good d-lineman...not great. I'm not sure andre really belongs in the hof but he sure as hell does before cortez kennedy. the roaf and dawson picks are solid. Doleman was great. He was the second best defensive end in the league in that 87-93 period behind bruce smith. I thought curtis martin was a marginal candidate, and definitely not a first ballot guy. I guess he got in due to longevity at his position and the stats he racked up over the years. But we faced him twice a year for over a decade and he was never for a second a guy who really scared you with his talent. Not sure how he gets in over tim brown or cris carter...but what do I know. Agree across the board
mob16151 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 the kennedy pick sticks out like a sore thumb. He was a good d-lineman...not great. I'm not sure andre really belongs in the hof but he sure as hell does before cortez kennedy. the roaf and dawson picks are solid. Doleman was great. He was the second best defensive end in the league in that 87-93 period behind bruce smith. I thought curtis martin was a marginal candidate, and definitely not a first ballot guy. I guess he got in due to longevity at his position and the stats he racked up over the years. But we faced him twice a year for over a decade and he was never for a second a guy who really scared you with his talent. Not sure how he gets in over tim brown or cris carter...but what do I know. Dude Martin had a shorter career than Thurman Thomas, and had more yards from scrimmage,TD's, and rushing yards. If Curtis Martin doesn't belong in the HoF then neither does Thurman.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Dude Martin had a shorter career than Thurman Thomas, and had more yards from scrimmage,TD's, and rushing yards. If Curtis Martin doesn't belong in the HoF then neither does Thurman. My sense it that you're making a statistics-based argument. Thurman was the straw that stirred the drink in the Bills offense. Martin was never as important a player, IMO.
mob16151 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 My sense it that you're making a statistics-based argument. Thurman was the straw that stirred the drink in the Bills offense. Martin was never as important a player, IMO. See thats where I disagree with your disagreement. lol Any player that rushed for that many yards, and scored that many TD's did plenty to stir the drink.
BuffaloFan32 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 At this point, I have to start wondering if there is anything us Bills fans can do to advocate on Andre's behalf. This was clearly the worst inductee class in recent memory and Andre is running out of time. We could start a website or send letters to voters or buy billboards or something. He gave us a lot of good memories, we could try to accomplish something for him.
CodeMonkey Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 At this point, I have to start wondering if there is anything us Bills fans can do to advocate on Andre's behalf. This was clearly the worst inductee class in recent memory and Andre is running out of time. We could start a website or send letters to voters or buy billboards or something. He gave us a lot of good memories, we could try to accomplish something for him. I suspect anything Bills fans would do would be seen as just that, Bills fans trying to get their guy in. However I applaud the emotions behind your question.
Mr_Blizzard Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 It's great to recognize guys in the trenches, but 4 of 5 in the class of 2012? Yeah, it's a mystery to me, too. As much as I would like to see Andre in the HOF, his competition at receiver was pretty stiff. But for NO receiver to get in? Not right if you ask me. Tim Brown has really good stats and he didn't get in? WTF?
papazoid Posted February 7, 2012 Author Posted February 7, 2012 Hall of Fame process still needs to be changed: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/07/hall-of-fame-process-still-needs-to-be-changed/ Ten ways to improve the Hall of Fame selection process: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/13/ten-ways-to-improve-the-hall-of-fame-selection-process/
Beerball Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 See thats where I disagree with your disagreement. lol Any player that rushed for that many yards, and scored that many TD's did plenty to stir the drink. Close your eyes. Now, picture Thurman with the ball behind the LOS. See him make the quick stop and lateral jump to his left before accelerating through the hole? See him catching pass after pass? Can you see him catching a screen pass and tearing through a defense? That's a HOFer. Close your eyes again...see Sweetness? OJ? Campbell? Smith? Sayers? Allen? OK, now close your eyes again and think of Martin. What do you see? For me...I can't conjur up anything, not a single memory. That aint a Hall of Fame player.
section122 Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Close your eyes. Now, picture Thurman with the ball behind the LOS. See him make the quick stop and lateral jump to his left before accelerating through the hole? See him catching pass after pass? Can you see him catching a screen pass and tearing through a defense? That's a HOFer. Close your eyes again...see Sweetness? OJ? Campbell? Smith? Sayers? Allen? OK, now close your eyes again and think of Martin. What do you see? For me...I can't conjur up anything, not a single memory. That aint a Hall of Fame player. not for nothing but when Curtis Martin retired it was a matter of time before he was inducted. Look at these numbers: 4th all time in rushing yards 9 straight years over 1000 yards 7 of which were over 1200 yards over 17000 career yards 100 career tds I remember being glad when he retired because he was a consistent workhorse back and played in 166 of a possible 175 games at running back. I think a lot of the Curtis Martin hate is because he spent his career with NE and the Jets.
dave mcbride Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 not for nothing but when Curtis Martin retired it was a matter of time before he was inducted. Look at these numbers: 4th all time in rushing yards 9 straight years over 1000 yards 7 of which were over 1200 yards over 17000 career yards 100 career tds I remember being glad when he retired because he was a consistent workhorse back and played in 166 of a possible 175 games at running back. I think a lot of the Curtis Martin hate is because he spent his career with NE and the Jets. Martin was a great player and deserves to be in. He wasn't just good; he was fantastic. He also had a strong postseason career: 182 carries for 795 yards (4.37 ypc) with 8 rushing TDs in 10 games. Over a 16 game season, that averages out to 1,272 yards and 13 rushing TDs against top competition. Also, it should be factored in that he hardly ever fumbled. He was one of the best ever in that category: only 29 times over 4,002 touches (3518 rushes and 484 receptions). That's pretty incredible. By way of comparison, Thurman Thomas fumbled 50 times in only 3,349 touches. Bettis fumbled 41 times in 3,679 touches. Emmitt Smith fumbled 61 times in 4924 touches. Barry Sanders fumbled 41 times in 3,414 touches. Marcus Allen fumbled 65 times in 3,709 touches. Jim Brown fumbled 57 times in 2,621 touches. O.J. fumbled 62 times in 2607 touches. If one accepts (as most do) that ball protection is a key part of being a good RB, than Martin should get points for being quite possibly the best ever. In my book, he's without question a hall of famer.
yungmack Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 One of the weakest HOF classes ever, especially when you consider who was left off. Tim Brown, Cris Carter, Andre Reed AND The Big Tuna? Seriously? For Cortez Kennedy? Huh?
dave mcbride Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Curtis Martin's case wasn't weak. See above.
Beerball Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 not for nothing but when Curtis Martin retired it was a matter of time before he was inducted. Look at these numbers: 4th all time in rushing yards 9 straight years over 1000 yards 7 of which were over 1200 yards over 17000 career yards 100 career tds I remember being glad when he retired because he was a consistent workhorse back and played in 166 of a possible 175 games at running back. I think a lot of the Curtis Martin hate is because he spent his career with NE and the Jets. Yup, he's got stats.
dave mcbride Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Yup, he's got stats. He's got more than just the ordinary stats. He produced when it counted most (the postseason) and he made very few mistakes (i.e., fumbles).
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Close your eyes. Now, picture Thurman with the ball behind the LOS. See him make the quick stop and lateral jump to his left before accelerating through the hole? See him catching pass after pass? Can you see him catching a screen pass and tearing through a defense? That's a HOFer. Close your eyes again...see Sweetness? OJ? Campbell? Smith? Sayers? Allen? OK, now close your eyes again and think of Martin. What do you see? For me...I can't conjur up anything, not a single memory. That aint a Hall of Fame player. I watched Curtis Martin play a lot of games and I have to agree that he was a very nondescript player. I defy anyone to describe his style. not for nothing but when Curtis Martin retired it was a matter of time before he was inducted. Look at these numbers: 4th all time in rushing yards 9 straight years over 1000 yards 7 of which were over 1200 yards over 17000 career yards 100 career tds I remember being glad when he retired because he was a consistent workhorse back and played in 166 of a possible 175 games at running back. I think a lot of the Curtis Martin hate is because he spent his career with NE and the Jets. It was already conceded that Martin has the stats. No one is arguing his stats. The argument against Martin is that he was nothing more than a highly consistent player. What great moments does anyone have to share about Curtis Martin's career? How many Super Bowls was Martin instrumental in leading his team to? How many NFL MVPs did Martin win? How many Offensive Player of the Year awards did he win? Did he make the NFL's All-Decade Team during his career? What was his career yards per carry? Nice football player but not a HOFer in my book.
NoSaint Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 I watched Curtis Martin play a lot of games and I have to agree that he was a very nondescript player. I defy anyone to describe his style. It was already conceded that Martin has the stats. No one is arguing his stats. The argument against Martin is that he was nothing more than a highly consistent player. What great moments does anyone have to share about Curtis Martin's career? How many Super Bowls was Martin instrumental in leading his team to? How many NFL MVPs did Martin win? How many Offensive Player of the Year awards did he win? Did he make the NFL's All-Decade Team during his career? What was his career yards per carry? Nice football player but not a HOFer in my book. Granted he didn't have as many highlight reel runs - I think being one of the most consistent players in the history of the game is noteworthy. Also: NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year (1995) PFWA Offensive Rookie of the Year (1995) 5× Pro Bowl (1995, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2004) 5× All-Pro (1995, 1996, 1999, 2001, 2004) Super Bowl XXXI appearance (1996) Ed Block Courage Award (2001) NFL Rushing champion (2004) NFL Alumni Running Back of the Year (2004) FedEx Ground Player of the Year Award (2004) Bart Starr Man of the Year Award (2005) New York Jets All-Time Leading Rusher (10,302 yards) Led NFL in rushing yards in 2004 with 1,697 Oldest player to win a rushing title in NFL history (age 31) 10,000 Rushing Yards Club Fourth-leading rusher of All-Time New England Patriots All-1990s Team New York Jets All-Time Four Decade Team New York Jets Ring of Honor
dave mcbride Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) I watched Curtis Martin play a lot of games and I have to agree that he was a very nondescript player. I defy anyone to describe his style. It was already conceded that Martin has the stats. No one is arguing his stats. The argument against Martin is that he was nothing more than a highly consistent player. What great moments does anyone have to share about Curtis Martin's career? How many Super Bowls was Martin instrumental in leading his team to? How many NFL MVPs did Martin win? How many Offensive Player of the Year awards did he win? Did he make the NFL's All-Decade Team during his career? What was his career yards per carry? Nice football player but not a HOFer in my book. You're kidding, right? He was as good as Thurman, sad to say, and one of the best vision/first-cut runners in NFL history. Just because he wasn't Barry Sanders doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best RBs of all time. I live in NY and saw way too many Jets games over the years. He was a warrior with great talent. Why do you think Parcells traded the farm for him after 97? Who was key in getting the Jets to 12-4 after a 1-15 season two seasons before? See my point about fumbles above. Offensive player of the year and MVPs is a crapshoot. In 2004, he was the best RB in the league. He had a great postseason in 1996 (166 yards and 3 tds against a dominant steelers D) and a good SB against GB. He's not the reason they lost that game. Edited February 8, 2012 by dave mcbride
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 No I'm not kidding Dave. To me, Curtis Martin was a tough, durable, dependable football player. I can't remember ever watching him and saying to myself "Wow!" As running backs go, Martin was pretty boring… a poor man's Emmitt Smith or maybe like a Terry Allen except that Martin could stay healthy. He was deceptively strong and hard to knock off his feet. He wasn't very fast, had average quickness for a back his size and played on teams which generally emphasized the run. I don't know that he had great instincts though he seemed to be able to follow his blockers. I'm sitting here watching highlights of his career on YouTube and yawning. I see where he played 11 seasons in the NFL and that he averaged 4 or less yards per carry 7 of those seasons. That's about consistent with my recollection of him. Sorry. And no way in hell was Curtis Martin anywhere near as good as Thurman Thomas, IMO.
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