beerme1 Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 Jesus. The Bills weren't going anywhere in the first place. Can we stop beating the dead horse already? The horse isn't dead yet. But when he is it will get real interesting real quick. Imagine if you were going to lay out 800 miliion or so to get into the NFL by picking up the Bills at the Estate sale. You run numbers all kinds of different ways and NONE of them make any sense for any kind of ROI. It is quickly decided that having spent that kind of money you need to get the team the hell out of here to make it fly. Of course your due diligence would have told you all of this anyway so its all bs. As has been mentioned previously unless you have some local with emotional ties a la Pegula the team is gone when the horse is dead. Think some whacko from LA who holds a press conference is really going to get accepted and keep them here? ha ha ha ha
PromoTheRobot Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 We can never relax about the Bills leaving. Too many people want a team and see us like dog sees a T-bone. PTR
billsfaninvgs Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) No way Vegas gets a football team. It won't happen in the next 30 years. NFL hates Vegas. The town could and would support a team here but the NFL won't do it.. We have a better chance of landing a NBA team (I hate the NBA) This is a high school/college basketball town. I would love MLB or NHL also. Our ECHL team gets a ton of support so I think NHL would be a success. Edited February 3, 2012 by billsfaninvgs
bowery4 Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 Expansion, especially internationally is the NFL's next move. Bflo will stay because it is the gateway to the Canadian market. Mexico City and London are good candidates for the future. Maybe even A German team after (the one other place NFL Europe was a success and that gives you 4 new teams TO, MC, LON, Hamburg which could make divisional play more even and acceptable) the NFL is a business that will have to expand. Closing out on old franchises is a thing of the past IMO as history is a big part of the story that they will be selling. I.E. Man U, Manchester is not a giant place but a rather smallish formally industrial Knob that has a history (and a very super rich owner). TV revenues make the story much more important than the actual place. Winning would help Bflo's cause lol. Outside the boarders is the most sense-able way to go. Soccer is a great and fairly easy model to follow and at some point these greedy bastards are going to realize it (if they haven't already, which I think they have but they don't seem to agree on the best way to make the expansion happen, yet). As far as the talent being spread thin, yeah it would be. The QB issue could be solved by changing rules a bit though. They really need to expand the league in a few ways the NCAA is out molded and eventually will have to be changed to make a new structure. Little leagues internationally would be a great way to get the game a more international face. I have a ton of ideas for them, they should hire me
shane nelson Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 We act like a small market because our owner has said for the past 52 years that Buffalo is a small market and should be grateful that he brought a team to this 3rd tier region. This message has been leveraged with ever negation he has ever had. Let’s hope our next owner gets it!
section122 Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 No way Vegas gets a football team. It won't happen in the next 30 years. NFL hates Vegas. The town could and would support a team here but the NFL won't do it.. We have a better chance of landing a NBA team (I hate the NBA) This is a high school/college basketball town. I would love MLB or NHL also. Our ECHL team gets a ton of support so I think NHL would be a success. If the Bills were to move Vegas would be where I would prefer them to go. It would be a great weekend getaway to catch a game... and maybe the bookies would hook us up a little bit Expansion, especially internationally is the NFL's next move. Bflo will stay because it is the gateway to the Canadian market. Mexico City and London are good candidates for the future. Maybe even A German team after (the one other place NFL Europe was a success and that gives you 4 new teams TO, MC, LON, Hamburg which could make divisional play more even and acceptable) the NFL is a business that will have to expand. Closing out on old franchises is a thing of the past IMO as history is a big part of the story that they will be selling. I.E. Man U, Manchester is not a giant place but a rather smallish formally industrial Knob that has a history (and a very super rich owner). TV revenues make the story much more important than the actual place. Winning would help Bflo's cause lol. Outside the boarders is the most sense-able way to go. Soccer is a great and fairly easy model to follow and at some point these greedy bastards are going to realize it (if they haven't already, which I think they have but they don't seem to agree on the best way to make the expansion happen, yet). As far as the talent being spread thin, yeah it would be. The QB issue could be solved by changing rules a bit though. They really need to expand the league in a few ways the NCAA is out molded and eventually will have to be changed to make a new structure. Little leagues internationally would be a great way to get the game a more international face. I have a ton of ideas for them, they should hire me following the soccer idea... I think expansion would be feasible without watering down the product if they did like European countries do and Have a Serie A and B. This way teams at the bottom would play for a chance to move up to the big boys division while the top series would guarantee good games each week. If this is done they would have much more ability to plant teams in these locales that they want and not damage the end product. Instead imo it would actually enrich it.
Mr. WEO Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 If the Bills were to move Vegas would be where I would prefer them to go. It would be a great weekend getaway to catch a game... and maybe the bookies would hook us up a little bit following the soccer idea... I think expansion would be feasible without watering down the product if they did like European countries do and Have a Serie A and B. This way teams at the bottom would play for a chance to move up to the big boys division while the top series would guarantee good games each week. If this is done they would have much more ability to plant teams in these locales that they want and not damage the end product. Instead imo it would actually enrich it. Isn't the mere existence of a "B League" acknowledgement of a watered down talent pool? And what fans would continue to follow a perennial "Serie B" team that has little chance of moving up (Bills, Browns, Panthers, Jags, Fins, Raiders....)? The reason the NFL is far more popular in this country than pro baseball, hockey and basketball (soccer is a joke) is because at the beginning of every season, after the draft, every team's fans think they have a chance to make the playoffs. If they are already "relegated", there is little to root for. This absolutely will never happen in the NFL.
yungmack Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 From what I understand, the real problem is that many of the owners would like to see the Bills moved to a larger market in order to increase profits for the entire league. Jerry Jones for instance. They want to maximize the shared profits. The owners also must approve any new owner, and might want an owner that wants to move the team. A couple of things: First of all, Buffalo is actually one of the largest media markets in the country if you take Ontario into consideration. For some insane reason, the league pretends that Ontario is invisible, that televisions in Fort Erie, Hamilton, Toronto somehow can't pick up American broadcasts, that Canadians can't buy pizza, beer, cars and all the other crap that's advertised on an NFL game. Second, the other teams don't share very much of each other's revenue, or at least not enough to make it worthwhile going through all the hassle of moving a team. If that were the case, it would make more sense to more the Jaguars, for example. A good Bills team almost guarantees 70,000 plus attendance.
section122 Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 Isn't the mere existence of a "B League" acknowledgement of a watered down talent pool? And what fans would continue to follow a perennial "Serie B" team that has little chance of moving up (Bills, Browns, Panthers, Jags, Fins, Raiders....)? The reason the NFL is far more popular in this country than pro baseball, hockey and basketball (soccer is a joke) is because at the beginning of every season, after the draft, every team's fans think they have a chance to make the playoffs. If they are already "relegated", there is little to root for. This absolutely will never happen in the NFL. Of course it will never happen but I thought it was an interesting idea. However to question what fans would continue to follow a perennial serie B team is ignoring all of the fans who currently do this. When was the last time the Bills, Browns, Jags, Fins, had a chance at the super bowl? A realistic legitimate shot. The Bills haven't made the playoffs in 12 years and still continue to sell out games (early ones but still). Fans follow crappy teams in all sports. I don't think any KC Royals or Pittsburgh Pirates fans have grand illusions of winning the world series nor will they be choosing a new team soon. Any city that had a team in it would be followed for the pure and simple fact that there is a team to follow.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 I would like to see the market analysis that puts the bills at the bottom and because of their location. When I look at the Forbes list, for the most part the teams that were bad are at the bottom and were good at the top, with the exception of Dallas and Washington who seem to stay up top and green bay and pitsburgh who were middle of the pack during their superbowl run year. My theory therefore is perhaps winning is a more significant revenue driver than location..,,
BuffaloWest Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 If you truly believe this you're completely delusional. Ignoring the fact this team has no real succession of ownership in place that has openly supported keeping the team in Buffalo won't change the fact that this franchise would be literally the easiest to relocate given the current stadium lease situation and the state of it's owner. You're wrong. They are not moving this team out of WNY. Forget about all of the economics-There is much more to it, and in the end in balances out just fine for this franchise to remain for another 50 years. The "no Succession plan" is posturing. Top that with the fact there is significant money people behind keeping the team in place when it does sell-Bills ARE NOT leaving-They never were leaving.....
Cornerville Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 You are 100% correct that the Bills have the best fans in football. NO other team would sell as many tickets after so many years of futility. Unfortuniatly, there is much more too it (the financial matrix) than fan attendance at the stadiums. Cleveland? They didn't ever lose their team...oh wait....
Doc Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 I've been saying all along that they should expand to LA and not relocate franchises, because they add a market and not steal from another, albeit lesser, one. However it seemed like relocation was the way they were going since it would keep the evenness of 32 teams, in which case Jax and Oakland made sense.
Geno Smith's Arm Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 A couple of things: First of all, Buffalo is actually one of the largest media markets in the country if you take Ontario into consideration. For some insane reason, the league pretends that Ontario is invisible, that televisions in Fort Erie, Hamilton, Toronto somehow can't pick up American broadcasts, that Canadians can't buy pizza, beer, cars and all the other crap that's advertised on an NFL game. Second, the other teams don't share very much of each other's revenue, or at least not enough to make it worthwhile going through all the hassle of moving a team. If that were the case, it would make more sense to more the Jaguars, for example. A good Bills team almost guarantees 70,000 plus attendance. It's not just about sharing the gate revenue, it's how much they can wrestle from the TV networks. As far as the Bills "regional appeal", well, I am curious what their TV ratings are (I wish they would start winning to boost those numbers). If the NFL thinks they can do better somewhere else, and that they would likely still retain strong viewership in what is currently "the Buffalo Bills Region", they won't give a crap how you or anyone else wants to count heads.
Ray Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 The horse isn't dead yet. But when he is it will get real interesting real quick. Imagine if you were going to lay out 800 miliion or so to get into the NFL by picking up the Bills at the Estate sale. You run numbers all kinds of different ways and NONE of them make any sense for any kind of ROI. It is quickly decided that having spent that kind of money you need to get the team the hell out of here to make it fly. Of course your due diligence would have told you all of this anyway so its all bs. As has been mentioned previously unless you have some local with emotional ties a la Pegula the team is gone when the horse is dead. Think some whacko from LA who holds a press conference is really going to get accepted and keep them here? ha ha ha ha Keep in mind if you run the numbers anywhere your ROI is pretty poor. If you go to LA (a place that has already lost 2 teams due to lack of interest) you have to lay out close to $800M and also over $1B for a stadium....likely a lot more for CA real estate, parking etc.... If you put down $500M cash you are still financing $1.5B not to mention relocation fee. So at 6% you are paying a good $100M in just interest a year....so all of your TV revenue essnetially goes just to interest and not even principal on your debt! I really think people overestimate the ability of all of these other places to get a team and make money. They will be lucky to make $20M a year.....considered good for a sports franchise. People want to own them for the prestige, the love of the game etc....But those who think it is for ROI are sadly mistaken unless you are buying, making a little money and then plan on selling it in a few years and that is not what the NFL wants.
dpberr Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 The NFL doesn't need 34 teams. Hell, you could cut a couple and have an even better league. Same goes for the NBA, NHL and especially MLB. Too many teams as it is.
Doc Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 The NFL doesn't need 34 teams. Hell, you could cut a couple and have an even better league. Same goes for the NBA, NHL and especially MLB. Too many teams as it is. I agree with the last 3, but the NFL can add teams, dilute the quality, and still thrive. That's how the owners are looking at it.
Ray Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 It's not just about sharing the gate revenue, it's how much they can wrestle from the TV networks. As far as the Bills "regional appeal", well, I am curious what their TV ratings are (I wish they would start winning to boost those numbers). If the NFL thinks they can do better somewhere else, and that they would likely still retain strong viewership in what is currently "the Buffalo Bills Region", they won't give a crap how you or anyone else wants to count heads. Bills local TV ratings are typically either number one or number two in terms of the "share". So when the Bills play more households in the Buffalo area are watching them play than any other market.....it is typically either the Bills or Green Bay at number one/two. I know the Buffalo region was number one for the NFL Draft this year as well! And you're right the Bils region is huge. Go up and stay in Toronto and watch the Buffalo affiliates there....we're not as small as some like to say. Toronto is the number 5 market in North America but take Toronto out of the equation and say just Hamilton thru Rochester as the Bills market and there you have population of 3.5M people.....hardly a small population base.
Mr. WEO Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) Of course it will never happen but I thought it was an interesting idea. However to question what fans would continue to follow a perennial serie B team is ignoring all of the fans who currently do this. When was the last time the Bills, Browns, Jags, Fins, had a chance at the super bowl? A realistic legitimate shot. The Bills haven't made the playoffs in 12 years and still continue to sell out games (early ones but still). Fans follow crappy teams in all sports. I don't think any KC Royals or Pittsburgh Pirates fans have grand illusions of winning the world series nor will they be choosing a new team soon. Any city that had a team in it would be followed for the pure and simple fact that there is a team to follow. The fever was running very high here for the first half of the season. Football is nothing like baseball. Every game is precious--there are only 16. Teams can get the playoffs with non-winning records. In baseball, you're 20 games back in july and it's over. Edited February 3, 2012 by Mr. WEO
Tcali Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 I think the reasonable # for size of the Buffalo market is about 3.5 million. You can't really include Toronto. But I would say east part of Hamilton to half of Syracuse(Giants have the other half)is the 'Bills Market'. That would still make it in the lower half of the league--but not right near the bottom. I'd say it about 80/20 that the Bills stay.
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