Offside Number 76 Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 There is definitely one for within the 20 yard line but what I have noticed "within the 10" it doesn't happen all that much. Often I watch other "non Bills" games where the punter pins it within the 5 twice in a game. How often do we get that from Moorman? I can't recall. It's an unpopular opinion, but I agree with you. Lots of touchbacks from Moorman.
Danny Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 Yeah. Maybe we could save some money and sign a guy like Billy Cundiff. Seriously there have been some critics of Lindell but it seems like most Bills fans are pretty happy with him for the most part. I always thought the most common criticism of him was his lack of depth on his kickoffs. Here's the thing about field goal kickers… you expect them to be good but when you have a below average guy (like Dave Rayner for instance), you really appreciate having a competent kicker. I couldnt agree more. Whenever the Bills dont convert on third down in the redzone the first thing that pops into my mind is that we have to settle for 3 points. With Lindell nobody really ssits there nervously worrying about whether or not we will be able to put up points. Its almost assumed because Lindell is so solid. Plus now with the new kickoff spot his weakness has been negated. All in all, a half million pay increase per year (on average on a multi year contract) isnt unreasonable imo.
section122 Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 THIS - Moorman 2+ yeras ago was a legit pro-bowler, who often lost out barely to Lechler(sp?) of the Raiders who was also amazing. Moorman's play dropped off a bit - coincidentally or not - when April left and DeHaven took over. That could just be age - I'm not ready to blame DeHaven. I do think - subjectively - that Moorman was noticeably better this past season than he was in 2010. I am. Our special teams from a coverage standpoint and punting seem to have gone way down from April. Not sure how Raymer ended up being the choice either but he was beyond terrible. I like Lindell and trust him to make kicks but he is 35. I know kickers play later than most positions but it is definitely something to keep an eye on.
jjmac Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 There is definitely one for within the 20 yard line but what I have noticed "within the 10" it doesn't happen all that much. Often I watch other "non Bills" games where the punter pins it within the 5 twice in a game. How often do we get that from Moorman? I can't recall. That all depends on where are offense stalls.
The Big Cat Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 Signing an NFL kicker should be like shopping for a vehicle that will be used to safely cart the kids around. Rian Lindell is the Volvo S-60 of NFL kickers. Nearly impossible to beat for what you need him for, anything better would be an unnecessary luxury.
PromoTheRobot Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Ryan Lindell FG%: 2009 - 85% (#15) 2010 - 76% (#35) 2011 - 87% (t-#10) Brian Moorman Punt Avg: 2009 - 46.6 yds (#6) 2010 - 42.4 yds (#24) 2011 - 48.2 yds (#6) PTR Edited January 26, 2012 by PromoTheRobot
The Big Cat Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 Ryan Lindell FG%: 2009 - 85% (#15) 2010 - 76% (#35) 2011 - 87% (t-#10) Brian Moorman Punt Avg: 2009 - 46.6 yds (#6) 2010 - 42.4 yds (#24) 2011 - 48.2 yds (#6) PTR I'm not sure why you brought up Mormon, but in placing their respective ranks next to their stats, I'm assuming you mean to insinuate who's the better, by league-wide comparison. Problem is, if you want a stat to make that comparison relevant, please show me how many times Moorman got the ball inside the 20, 10 and 5 yard lines. Anything else is irrelevant.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Ryan Lindell FG%: 2009 - 85% (#15) 2010 - 76% (#35) 2011 - 87% (t-#10) Brian Moorman Punt Avg: 2009 - 46.6 yds (#6) 2010 - 42.4 yds (#24) 2011 - 48.2 yds (#6) PTR Moorman's got leg (read my post above) but he doesn't help us enough pinning teams back in their own red zone. That is what the elite punters do quite regularly which is VERY beneficial to winning the field position part of the game. Unfortunately Punt AVG alone doesn't help you as much in the field position game IMO as opposed to great punt placement which he lacks IMO. I would guess Moorman is "mid-tier" in the majority of other punting statistics. Can you post the complete stats? Edited January 26, 2012 by BuffaloBillsForever
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) OK. I just looked up some statistics on Moorman. So punt AVG he is ranked 6th. But from rank number 1 to rank 20 there is only a 6 yard difference. So punt AVG is a meaningless statistic. All punters can kick the ball far. The inside the 20 and touchback stat is interesting on Moorman and exactly what I thought from watching the games. He isn't even mid tier in this regard. He ranks among punters 24th inside the 20 (bad) and ranks 1st in touchbacks (bad). Ranking first in touchbacks means he can't pin his punts within the 5 yard line. This is the important field position battle. Moorman is very low in fair catches ranked at 29th so a lot of his punts are getting returned. So the fact he can't pin the team back or get a high fair catch rate is a very bad thing for our special teams. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/punting/sort/puntsInside20/seasontype/2 Edited January 26, 2012 by BuffaloBillsForever
roy875 Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 Kicking at the Ralph is just not the same as other places. I think they need to be graded on a curve to some extent, at least for half the games. How many times have visiting kickers looked foolish, and then Lindell knocks it right down the middle pretty consistently? Same with Moorman---- its easy to see the difference with the wind at opposite ends in the trajectory of the punts. Kicking into the east end the ball sails for ever and lands hard, and the other way, it gets stood up like a wedge into a 30 MPH wind and lands soft. Thats pretty challenging to gauge the distance. Anyone who plays golf can attest to that. I'd agree that moorman hasn't impressed me with his inside the 20 kicking though. That turns into a huge advantage when your kicker can pull that off, especially at home.
PromoTheRobot Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure why you brought up Mormon, but in placing their respective ranks next to their stats, I'm assuming you mean to insinuate who's the better, by league-wide comparison. Problem is, if you want a stat to make that comparison relevant, please show me how many times Moorman got the ball inside the 20, 10 and 5 yard lines. Anything else is irrelevant. Sorry, Cat. No insinuation intended. I was looking at the NFL.com stats and figured to post Moorman's stats along side Lindell's. There has been discussion if Moorman was losing leg strength and I thought it was interesting that he had such a bounceback season in 2011. Moorman punts 2009: Inside 20 - 25 (t-#12)- # of punts: 90 - Longest punt: 73 yds. - Yds: 4192 (#5) 2010: Inside 20 - 17 (#28) - # of punts: 75 - Longest punt: 61 yds. - Yds: 3181 (#19) 2011: Inside 20 - 20 (#24) - # of punts: 72 - Longest punt: 66 yds. - Yds: 3472 (#16) Note the fewer number of punts since 2009. PTR Edited January 26, 2012 by PromoTheRobot
Best Player Available Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 Sorry, Cat. No insinuation intended. I was looking at the NFL.com stats and figured to post Moorman's stats along side Lindell's. There has been discussion if Moorman was losing leg strength and I thought it was interesting that he had such a bounceback season in 2011. Moorman punts 2009: Inside 20 - 25 (t-#12)- # of punts: 90 - Longest punt: 73 yds. - Yds: 3472 (#16) 2010: Inside 20 - 17 (#28) - # of punts: 75 - Longest punt: 61 yds. - Yds: 3181 (#19) 2011: Inside 20 - 20 (#24) - # of punts: 72 - Longest punt: 66 yds. - Yds: 4192 (#5) PTR So, you said a couple weeks back we should start looking for a punter based on some other absurd "stats" Can we now assume with these new "stats" that your on board with our current punter?
PromoTheRobot Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) So, you said a couple weeks back we should start looking for a punter based on some other absurd "stats" Can we now assume with these new "stats" that your on board with our current punter? My eyes said Moorman wasn't doing so well. The numbers show that he came back some from a poor 2010. He's also going to be 36 years old next season. Getting a new punter is not a burning priority but you have to ask how much longer can he do it. PTR Edited January 26, 2012 by PromoTheRobot
Best Player Available Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 My eyes said Moorman wasn't doing so well. The numbers show that he came back some from a poor 2010. He's also going to be 36 years old next season. Getting a new punter is not a burning priority but you have to ask how much longer can he do it. PTR Well, agree on the age thing. But, his 2011 season was ok. His inability too no longer hit the coffin corners is a possible concern. Like I commented previously, the kicking game may be our only strength on the team, when the incumbents are healthy. I would guess we will stand pat on the kickers, resign them and address real true immediate needs.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Sorry, Cat. No insinuation intended. I was looking at the NFL.com stats and figured to post Moorman's stats along side Lindell's. There has been discussion if Moorman was losing leg strength and I thought it was interesting that he had such a bounceback season in 2011. Moorman punts 2009: Inside 20 - 25 (t-#12)- # of punts: 90 - Longest punt: 73 yds. - Yds: 4192 (#5) 2010: Inside 20 - 17 (#28) - # of punts: 75 - Longest punt: 61 yds. - Yds: 3181 (#19) 2011: Inside 20 - 20 (#24) - # of punts: 72 - Longest punt: 66 yds. - Yds: 3472 (#16) Note the fewer number of punts since 2009. PTR Inside the 20 stat means something and to an extent number of punts for proper context. Longest punt doesn't mean a damn thing and neither does total punt yards. Edited January 26, 2012 by BuffaloBillsForever
CSBill Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) They would be foolish not to resign him, don't waste 10 seconds thinking about this--do it, and move on to fixing real problems! Not doing so, will just create more problems Edited January 26, 2012 by CSBill
Sniper Posted January 27, 2012 Author Posted January 27, 2012 They would be foolish not to resign him, don't waste 10 seconds thinking about this--do it, and move on to fixing real problems! Not doing so, will just create more problems Couldn't have said it better myself CSBill.
DFITZ1 Posted January 27, 2012 Posted January 27, 2012 I've always liked Lindell. Some here on TSW have called into question his value, but we all saw what happens with a replacement level guy like Rayner. I'll take solid. Those whole question his value should see films of the stone foots we had before Scot Norwood (forget Wide Right, he won many games for us in those break out years, and some from the late 70's (like Tom Dempsey who missed a chip shot to end the Fin losing streak from hell.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 27, 2012 Posted January 27, 2012 I think he is fine. But like I said, he hasn't really been in any high pressure situations. I can't think of any at least, can you? Do you disagree? Pressure? From one standpoint, every kick a placekicker attempts is pressure because the NFL is a results-oriented business and FG % is a pretty black and white statistic… it only ignores the competency of the holder and long snapper and to some degree weather and field conditions. I feel that snappers and holders are all very competent so I think that effect is minimal at best. As far as weather/field conditions, I would bet that cold weather kickers have very similar %s to warm weather kickers and I'd bet the same holds true for turf vs grass kickers. In other words IMO, FG % is a very "honest" stat. So back to my original point, each time a placekicker kicks he's kicking for his job because if his % slips, it's a cause for concern with the team and invites further scrutiny and the considering of alternatives. As far as pressure from exceptionally important kicks, the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs since the 2004 season so obviously he's not had too many kicks of huge magnitude. On the other hand, in any game there are strategically important moments when the outcome of a field goal attempt is crucial to the outcome of the game. My recollection is that Lindell is very dependable in those situations. As such, I consider him to be an excellent kicker albeit in an era of excellent kickers. As for Moorman, gross punting average is the least relevant statistic for punters. Obviously net average is more important for one thing because it reflects such factors as hang time, fair catches and unreturnable punts. And of course touchbacks and punts downed inside the 20 are important although they are not very relevant unless expressed as a percentage. BTW, Brian Moorman was 25th in net punting average…
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