Offensive Tackles

[Trader]

Throughout all the talk of who to get in the first round of the draft I've always been for going after and OLB/DE for a pass rush. While I still do want that position badly watching how much of a difference these offensive tackles are making in these playoff games is making me lean more and more toward getting Reiff or Martin with the first pick. I've always valued OT highly but when in the Saints game the LT shut down Aldon Smith most plays during their one on one's really shows just how much of a difference it can make for a quarterback. These LT for these teams are shutting down some of the best pass rushers in the game like smith and suggs for a majority of the game.

 

Just out of curiosity, is watching these games making anyone lean more or less toward an OT with the 10th pick in the draft?

I want our QB to get the 4-5 seconds these guys are getting instead of 1.5. the answer is yes. I would also like to see Spiller and Jackson with some gaping holes to run through. I am still leaning twoard Upshaw though. He is a complete player who can play run pass every defensive down. He also gives an Alabama personality to the D with Darius being here. Depends on who is there for us. I don't want to reach and I do not think Upshaw is reaching at all.

[thewildrabbit]

Can't address every position at once. Again - who would you have had them draft last year after Miller was taken??

 

Are you arguing they didn't need Aaron Williams in the 2nd? It sure didn't/doesn't look that way by the end of the season - he's now the Bills' #1 CB.

 

Does my liking those two picks make me a homer??

 

 

Troupe certainly looks like a bad move - but the biggest problem for the team going in to 2010 (and still after) was the run defense.

 

It's only because they've done some work to shore up the run defense that the lack of pass rush can now be singled out as THE defensive problem.

 

They'll address it this year, big time, and if they don't screw up the picks the defense should be pretty sound.

This team has been desperate for a top pass rusher since 2008 when Aaron Schobel was injured. Yea bonehead Jauron drafted a huge project in Maybin that didn't work out, 2 years= zero sacks. So why didn't Buddy Nix move to correct that issue in 2010 when he first got here?

 

NFN, but Jason Pierre Paul was the tenth rated player with a grade of 8.6. Another one of those woulda, shoulda, coulda I know. But Jeez, just think if the Bills would have drafted him instead of a position they were already deep in. Stating this I'm not 100% certain this team is moving in the right direction when they keep making wrong moves. It shouldn't take 3 years to find a pass rusher.

 

For the 2011 season clearly Nix was counting on Shawn Merriman to be the man. But this was another huge gamble considering his old team dumped because he is so injury prone and hasn't been able to stay healthy.

 

They should have had some adequate help this year at WR -TE and just might have had at WR if they don't trade Evans. But most importantly at center where they had Geoff Hangartner and cut him in pre season.The center position was a complete fiasco this year as they had 5 different players at that position.

 

Will this team sign its free agents? Will they make an honest effort to finally secure a top pass rusher this year? Will they finally build an O line that will allow the offense to run the full spectrum of plays, run and pass? Still so many holes on this team after 2 years. Lets hope the team make a real effort in free agency this year, instead of Buddy Nix stating he is going to get some sleep when free agency opens like he did in 2010. Is this the year that Chan Gailey finally beats Jauron's record of 7-9?

[Bill from NYC]

Are you arguing they didn't need Aaron Williams in the 2nd? It sure didn't/doesn't look that way by the end of the season - he's now the Bills' #1 CB.

 

You are not asking me, but I will take the unpopular position that Aaron Williams was in fact a stupid pick. You know why? Because Nix clearly stated that he had multiple trade down offers in every round.

Do you know how much the 2nd pick in round 2 is worth? PART of the compensation would have been a 1st round pick in this draft. So.....would I rather have Ryan Mallett AND another first this year than Aaron Williams? Of course. How about you?

To be fair, it's tough to judge Williams. He was injured for a good chunk of the season and we had next to no pass rush. Maybe he will be a very good player some day. I don't know, but taking a corner this early with a crumbling, shoddy foundation was another step in the path of stupidity imo. And we didn't win many games, ya know?

[mob16151]

You are not asking me, but I will take the unpopular position that Aaron Williams was in fact a stupid pick. You know why? Because Nix clearly stated that he had multiple trade down offers in every round.

Do you know how much the 2nd pick in round 2 is worth? PART of the compensation would have been a 1st round pick in this draft. So.....would I rather have Ryan Mallett AND another first this year than Aaron Williams? Of course. How about you?

To be fair, it's tough to judge Williams. He was injured for a good chunk of the season and we had next to no pass rush. Maybe he will be a very good player some day. I don't know, but taking a corner this early with a crumbling, shoddy foundation was another step in the path of stupidity imo. And we didn't win many games, ya know?

 

And yet, we still won more games than last season.

[Bill from NYC]

And yet, we still won more games than last season.

 

Yes, but this was not the highest ladder to climb, ya know?

[BobChalmers]

Nix wasn't addressing the pass rush when he picked Dareus?

 

A little - but, no, a 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT is not your main source of a pass rush.

 

The fact that Dareus led the team with 6 sacks is an indictment of the rest of the team, not an argument that he is a big-time pass rusher.

 

He's fine - I just mean they got a DT (Dareus) instead of a pass rusher like Von Miller.

 

You are not asking me, but I will take the unpopular position that Aaron Williams was in fact a stupid pick. You know why? Because Nix clearly stated that he had multiple trade down offers in every round.

Do you know how much the 2nd pick in round 2 is worth? PART of the compensation would have been a 1st round pick in this draft. So.....would I rather have Ryan Mallett AND another first this year than Aaron Williams? Of course. How about you?

To be fair, it's tough to judge Williams. He was injured for a good chunk of the season and we had next to no pass rush. Maybe he will be a very good player some day. I don't know, but taking a corner this early with a crumbling, shoddy foundation was another step in the path of stupidity imo. And we didn't win many games, ya know?

 

Pretty tough to judge Mallett too. Personally I wouldn't have used a 3rd on him.

[JohnC]

You are not asking me, but I will take the unpopular position that Aaron Williams was in fact a stupid pick. You know why? Because Nix clearly stated that he had multiple trade down offers in every round.

Do you know how much the 2nd pick in round 2 is worth? PART of the compensation would have been a 1st round pick in this draft. So.....would I rather have Ryan Mallett AND another first this year than Aaron Williams? Of course. How about you?

To be fair, it's tough to judge Williams. He was injured for a good chunk of the season and we had next to no pass rush. Maybe he will be a very good player some day. I don't know, but taking a corner this early with a crumbling, shoddy foundation was another step in the path of stupidity imo. And we didn't win many games, ya know?

 

If you look at last year's draft in its totality it was an exceptional draft. Darieus, Williams, Sheppard, Hairston and Searcy were all quality picks who made contributions. This was the best collective draft that this lame oranization has had in more than a decade.

 

There are innumerable "what-if" scenarios that can't be judged because we simply don't know what the alternative trade deals could have been. So the best way to judge a pick is based on the "actual" selection. From that standpoint I think Buddy Nix did an outstanding job in last year's draft. In his first draft, the Spiller year, I thought he did a very mediocre job. Up to this point the Troup and Carrington picks added little to the roster. I'm resolutely sticking with the Spiller pick being a quality pick that will become even more evident as time goes by.

 

I'm not adverse to trade downs in order to garner more picks. However, Buddy Nix has a different drafting philosophy. His more conservative approach is to make the best pick you can when your turn comes up and don't risk the prospect you want for a deal that gives you more lower round picks.

 

With respect to your comments to Bob Chalmers regarding the team's record I'm not sure it is a fair measurement on how Nix is doing. Regardless of the public relations comments coming out of OBD that the Bills were not far away from being a good team when Nix took over, they were meaningless words that didn't reflect the reality that the Bills were at an expansion team caliber. Nix was entering a job in in which the roster needed to be completely overhauled.

 

You, more than most followers, know very well that this is a multi-year endeavor to the road of respectability (not playoffs) hindered by the sclerosis of a Ralph Wilson created organization. Will the Bills be a playoff team next year? Of course not. They should be better and with a weaker schedule their record shold be a little better. What it comes down to it is better to steadily move forward than to consistently flounder.

[Bill from NYC]

If you look at last year's draft in its totality it was an exceptional draft. Darieus, Williams, Sheppard, Hairston and Searcy were all quality picks who made contributions. This was the best collective draft that this lame oranization has had in more than a decade.

 

There are innumerable "what-if" scenarios that can't be judged because we simply don't know what the alternative trade deals could have been. So the best way to judge a pick is based on the "actual" selection. From that standpoint I think Buddy Nix did an outstanding job in last year's draft. In his first draft, the Spiller year, I thought he did a very mediocre job. Up to this point the Troup and Carrington picks added little to the roster. I'm resolutely sticking with the Spiller pick being a quality pick that will become even more evident as time goes by.

 

I'm not adverse to trade downs in order to garner more picks. However, Buddy Nix has a different drafting philosophy. His more conservative approach is to make the best pick you can when your turn comes up and don't risk the prospect you want for a deal that gives you more lower round picks.

 

With respect to your comments to Bob Chalmers regarding the team's record I'm not sure it is a fair measurement on how Nix is doing. Regardless of the public relations comments coming out of OBD that the Bills were not far away from being a good team when Nix took over, they were meaningless words that didn't reflect the reality that the Bills were at an expansion team caliber. Nix was entering a job in in which the roster needed to be completely overhauled.

 

You, more than most followers, know very well that this is a multi-year endeavor to the road of respectability (not playoffs) hindered by the sclerosis of a Ralph Wilson created organization. Will the Bills be a playoff team next year? Of course not. They should be better and with a weaker schedule their record shold be a little better. What it comes down to it is better to steadily move forward than to consistently flounder.

 

Good post John. Let's talk about the 2011 draft for a moment, ok?

 

Overall, I would rate it as good. We got a superior DT, 3 defensive backs who look as if they can play, and Hairston, who I think will be a very good RT at some point. And, he has proven that he can fill in at LT. I omitted Sheppard because I am not so impressed. But as you can see, I have no major quarrel with your assessment of the 2011 draft. However, the team is still without any real pass rush, a dependable LT, or a star quarterback. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think we lost 5 games by 7 points or less. I am thinking that pass rush alone might have won us 2 of those, especially the Bengals game vs. a rookie.

 

Now, let's jump to 2012 if you will. Ralph has all but announced that we are going to draft a wideout at #10. Like the Spiller selection, this would excite some fans and sell tickets, but it probably won't win us football games, even if the wr is "good". If the Bills strengthen the key 3 elements listed above, the 2011 draft will look even better. If not, they will still lose more than they win due to a shaky foundation.

 

As you well know, pass rushers and LTs are hard to get. We need to use our best resources to strengthen these positions of great need. It's just so obvious to me. We are not losing football games in a vacuum. You call for steady improvement above. So do I. We won't get it by wasting more prime draft picks at "skill" position. A foundation is desperately needed.

 

Jmo.

[JohnC]

Good post John. Let's talk about the 2011 draft for a moment, ok?

 

Overall, I would rate it as good. We got a superior DT, 3 defensive backs who look as if they can play, and Hairston, who I think will be a very good RT at some point. And, he has proven that he can fill in at LT. I omitted Sheppard because I am not so impressed. But as you can see, I have no major quarrel with your assessment of the 2011 draft. However, the team is still without any real pass rush, a dependable LT, or a star quarterback. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think we lost 5 games by 7 points or less. I am thinking that pass rush alone might have won us 2 of those, especially the Bengals game vs. a rookie.

 

Now, let's jump to 2012 if you will. Ralph has all but announced that we are going to draft a wideout at #10. Like the Spiller selection, this would excite some fans and sell tickets, but it probably won't win us football games, even if the wr is "good". If the Bills strengthen the key 3 elements listed above, the 2011 draft will look even better. If not, they will still lose more than they win due to a shaky foundation.

 

As you well know, pass rushers and LTs are hard to get. We need to use our best resources to strengthen these positions of great need. It's just so obvious to me. We are not losing football games in a vacuum. You call for steady improvement above. So do I. We won't get it by wasting more prime draft picks at "skill" position. A foundation is desperately needed.

 

Jmo.

 

Bill, I enjoy reading your responses. I don't always agree with all your assessments but in general we are riding the same choo choo train.

 

You cited a number of deficiences with this team. No one is disagreeing with the lack of talent in a number of areas. But let's be fair here. Nix took over an expansion caliber talent base. There is no way in the world that all the areas of need were going to be addressed in one, two or even three draft cycles.

 

You seem to forget that this is a Ralph Wilson business model. The reconstruction is going to be done primarily through the draft with little meaningful improvement coming from the free agent market. When free agents are added there are usually additional roster cuts to balance out the finances. So in essence when this parsimonious franchise adds talent it also gives up some. It is frustrating to witness other franchises use the free agent market to augment their talent base while this backwater franchise mostly sits on the sidelines with this important player acquisition tool (free agency).

 

Bill, I'm not into conspiracy theories. I don't believe that Ralph is going to order the drafting of a receiver for marketing purposes. I'm not saying this to be disrespectful but the owner is too physically and mentally frail to be involved. There is no doubt that his finance representatives are the guardians of his business but Buddy is running the football operation. The owner wants to be kept informed and to a degree humored as if he is a participant. At this stage in his life he simply doesn't have the wherewithal to even fake a contribution to the football side of the business.

 

Buddy Nix is well aware of the gaping defensive liabilities on this team. It is impossible to not know it. The challenge he has to deal with is he going to be in position to take an impactful pass rusher? They are very difficult to find in the draft. When they are there they are usually very high draft picks. Because of that exclusivity of talent I was very much supportive of his acquisitiion of Merriman, even if it didn't work out. At least he tried to address a critical need.

 

To put things in perspective with respect to our defense you have to review the last two drafts over the first three rounds. Five out of six players selected were on the defensive side of the ball, with Spiller being the only offensive player selected. My general point is that Nix is very aware that this defense has to be almost thoroughly rebuilt.

 

As I stated in the prior post steadily moving forward is better than constantly floundering. This organization has some major limitations; Buddy is working within that stringent and exasperating system.

Edited January 20, 2012 by JohnC

[thewildrabbit]

Bill, I enjoy reading your responses. I don't always agree with all your assessments but in general we are riding the same choo choo train.

 

You cited a number of deficiences with this team. No one is disagreeing with the lack of talent in a number of areas. But let's be fair here. Nix took over an expansion caliber talent base. There is no way in the world that all the areas of need were going to be addressed in one, two or even three draft cycles.

 

You seem to forget that this is a Ralph Wilson business model. The reconstruction is going to be done primarily through the draft with little meaningful improvement coming from the free agent market. When free agents are added there are usually additional roster cuts to balance out the finances. So in essence when this parsimonious franchise adds talent it also gives up some. It is frustrating to witness other franchises use the free agent market to augment their talent base while this backwater franchise mostly sits on the sidelines with this important player acquisition tool (free agency).

 

Bill, I'm not into conspiracy theories. I don't believe that Ralph is going to order the drafting of a receiver for marketing purposes. I'm not saying this to be disrespectful but the owner is too physically and mentally frail to be involved. There is no doubt that his finance representatives are the guardians of his business but Buddy is running the football operation. The owner wants to be kept informed and to a degree humored as if he is a participant. At this stage in his life he simply doesn't have the wherewithal to even fake a contribution to the football side of the business.

 

Buddy Nix is well aware of the gaping defensive liabilities on this team. It is impossible to not know it. The challenge he has to deal with is he going to be in position to take an impactful pass rusher? They are very difficult to find in the draft. When they are there they are usually very high draft picks. Because of that exclusivity of talent I was very much supportive of his acquisitiion of Merriman, even if it didn't work out. At least he tried to address a critical need.

 

To put things in perspective with respect to our defense you have to review the last two drafts over the first three rounds. Five out of six players selected were on the defensive side of the ball, with Spiller being the only offensive player selected. My general point is that Nix is very aware that this defense has to be almost thoroughly rebuilt.

 

As I stated in the prior post steadily moving forward is better than constantly floundering. This organization has some major limitations; Buddy is working within that stringent and exasperating system.

While you make a good point about the system that Buddy Nix has had to deal with, the man has also scrood the pooch in many ways.

Cornell Green at RT in free agency at 2 mill was a total waste and a total joke. Buddy Nix stated he was going to get some sleep as free agency opened and this was the result? Whomever thought that man would be some sort of an upgrade at RT should have been fired immediately.

 

The RB (Spiller) pick in the first round in 2010 when the team had so many other glaring needs. Primarily a pass rusher- OT- Center. The case can be made that if the Bills draft either of those positions with that #1 pick they win more games then they have the last two years. Like I pointed out earlier DE Jason Pierre Paul was graded as the # 10th best player- OT Anthony Davis would have solved a problem that plagued the team most of the 2010 & 2011 seasons- C Maurkice Pouncey would have allowed Wood to stay at guard and could have been a big upgrade on that line.

 

No teams take a RB that early in the draft anymore unless they are very very special like Adrian Peterson. Spiller could ultimately develop into another Chris Johnson, but somehow I doubt it considering how reluctant Chan Gailey is to use him on a full time basis.

Torell Troup with the 41st pick is such a slap in the face when the Patriots took Rob Gronkowski with the 42nd. TE Jimmy Graham was a 3rd round pick by the Saints. That entire 2010 draft was used mostly on the defensive side and the defense really didn't improve from 2010 to 2011. That entire 2010 draft is like the bills just spun their wheels and gained very little when they could have gained so much with a different draft and free agency

 

Two of the most important areas that every team needs are pass rush and O line and this team is still very weak in both areas after 2 years of this regime. I still question this teams ability at talent evaluations and the proper judgements as to what personnel should be acquired.

[PDaDdy]

Throughout all the talk of who to get in the first round of the draft I've always been for going after and OLB/DE for a pass rush. While I still do want that position badly watching how much of a difference these offensive tackles are making in these playoff games is making me lean more and more toward getting Reiff or Martin with the first pick. I've always valued OT highly but when in the Saints game the LT shut down Aldon Smith most plays during their one on one's really shows just how much of a difference it can make for a quarterback. These LT for these teams are shutting down some of the best pass rushers in the game like smith and suggs for a majority of the game.

 

Just out of curiosity, is watching these games making anyone lean more or less toward an OT with the 10th pick in the draft?

 

I was banging that drum before Jason Peters even developed into a perennial probowler. After he was traded, deafeningly so. Good teams protect their QBs with good LTs that can play on an island. Other teams have a revolving door of no name guys that need TE and RB double teams and chip block help. They don't have to be drafted in the first round but they do have to play like it. Look at every "elite" or "franchise" QB out there and there is probably a good LT protecting their blind side. Part of being an elite or franchise QB is having the time and comfort to be exactly that.

 

Some on this board will never admit the need for a good LT because that would be an admission that letting Peters go was a mistake or they make all manor of excuses for why it's Peters fault not the organizations fault that he is not here. So sad.

 

That being said. I don't know that Reif is the guy that we should be looking at. If Matt Kahlil <sp> fell to us he should be a consideration but I've heard that Reif is potentially projected as a RT. If we got a first round OT at #10 they need to be a slam dunk starter for 5+ years. As badly as I want a great LT reaching for one is never the answer. Get the pass rushing DE or OLB we desperately need that will be there at #10.

Edited January 21, 2012 by PDaDdy

[JohnC]

While you make a good point about the system that Buddy Nix has had to deal with, the man has also scrood the pooch in many ways.

Cornell Green at RT in free agency at 2 mill was a total waste and a total joke. Buddy Nix stated he was going to get some sleep as free agency opened and this was the result? Whomever thought that man would be some sort of an upgrade at RT should have been fired immediately.

 

The RB (Spiller) pick in the first round in 2010 when the team had so many other glaring needs. Primarily a pass rusher- OT- Center. The case can be made that if the Bills draft either of those positions with that #1 pick they win more games then they have the last two years. Like I pointed out earlier DE Jason Pierre Paul was graded as the # 10th best player- OT Anthony Davis would have solved a problem that plagued the team most of the 2010 & 2011 seasons- C Maurkice Pouncey would have allowed Wood to stay at guard and could have been a big upgrade on that line.

 

No teams take a RB that early in the draft anymore unless they are very very special like Adrian Peterson. Spiller could ultimately develop into another Chris Johnson, but somehow I doubt it considering how reluctant Chan Gailey is to use him on a full time basis.

Torell Troup with the 41st pick is such a slap in the face when the Patriots took Rob Gronkowski with the 42nd. TE Jimmy Graham was a 3rd round pick by the Saints. That entire 2010 draft was used mostly on the defensive side and the defense really didn't improve from 2010 to 2011. That entire 2010 draft is like the bills just spun their wheels and gained very little when they could have gained so much with a different draft and free agency

 

Two of the most important areas that every team needs are pass rush and O line and this team is still very weak in both areas after 2 years of this regime. I still question this teams ability at talent evaluations and the proper judgements as to what personnel should be acquired.

 

In a prior post with NY Bill I noted that I felt that Nix's first draft that included Spiller was (up to this point) very average. I pointed out that I felt that we made a mistake and reached for Troup and also have concerns with the Carrington pick. Next year we should be able to form a more conclusive judgment on that year's draft class.

 

I am still resolutely sticking with my view that the Spiller pick was very reasonable. He was a top ten player being drafted in top ten. He is a playmaker on a team devoid of playmakers. For the last third of the season when he replaced the injured Jackson he was our best offensive player and the only real playmaker we had.

 

The Cornell Green free agent acquistion was a move by Buddy to try to shore up the OL. It was only meant to be a short term-stop gap measure. It didn't work out, but at least he tried to address a position void. There were few options on the free market at the position. As far as how much he got paid who cares? The organization was under the cap and it was not a long term deal.

 

In hindsight, last year's draft turned out to be very productive. The first four round picks (including 2 fourth round picks) all got substantial playing time and all demonstrated that they can be meaningful contributors. I don't know how anyone can not rank that draft class as being very good.

 

Not all position needs are going to be addressed in two draft classes, especially when one considers that Nix was taking over a roster that was at an expansion team level. The biggest mistake for Nix to make is to reach for needs. In the long run the best approach he can take is (for the most part) to draft the best players he can regardless of position. Reaching for needs is why the Bills drafted Maybin and made other failed picks. It would be foolish to continue on with that foolish approach.

Edited January 21, 2012 by JohnC

[mob16151]

Yes, but this was not the highest ladder to climb, ya know?

 

I respect your opinion, but I see it like this, as long as they keep climbing that ladder, i'm willing to be patient.

[smapdi]

This team has been desperate for a top pass rusher since 2008 when Aaron Schobel was injured. Yea bonehead Jauron drafted a huge project in Maybin that didn't work out, 2 years= zero sacks. So why didn't Buddy Nix move to correct that issue in 2010 when he first got here?

 

NFN, but Jason Pierre Paul was the tenth rated player with a grade of 8.6. Another one of those woulda, shoulda, coulda I know. But Jeez, just think if the Bills would have drafted him instead of a position they were already deep in. Stating this I'm not 100% certain this team is moving in the right direction when they keep making wrong moves. It shouldn't take 3 years to find a pass rusher.

 

For the 2011 season clearly Nix was counting on Shawn Merriman to be the man. But this was another huge gamble considering his old team dumped because he is so injury prone and hasn't been able to stay healthy.

 

They should have had some adequate help this year at WR -TE and just might have had at WR if they don't trade Evans. But most importantly at center where they had Geoff Hangartner and cut him in pre season.The center position was a complete fiasco this year as they had 5 different players at that position.

 

Will this team sign its free agents? Will they make an honest effort to finally secure a top pass rusher this year? Will they finally build an O line that will allow the offense to run the full spectrum of plays, run and pass? Still so many holes on this team after 2 years. Lets hope the team make a real effort in free agency this year, instead of Buddy Nix stating he is going to get some sleep when free agency opens like he did in 2010. Is this the year that Chan Gailey finally beats Jauron's record of 7-9?

 

Jason Piere Paul was listed as a very risky prospect going into that draft. No question he had the physical skills to succeed. But, if my memory serves me well, there were concerns that he wasn't exactly a "high motor" player. Questions about his consistency; enough to warrant passing on him in the top 10.

 

All of these magical LT's people keep saying we could have drafted don't really exist. Time and time again I hear people harp on this point but they fail to realize that there really wasn't one there worth the 9th pick. Bulaga had major concerns. He was remarked as "soft" by a few scouts pre-draft. Many questioned his ability to man the LT spot in the NFL. He still hasn't broken thru at LT for GB. Only has played LT due to injuries. Anthony Davis also had question marks. Work ethic questions and concerns about whether he could really hold down LT in the NFL. I love how posters always say that they should have taken a LT there but in reality, there wasn't a LT worth the 9th pick.

 

I think Spiller was a great pick for this team. Nix went BPA, which is what you ALWAYS should do with your 1st round pick; especially in top 10. Once you start going for "need" players with your 1st round pick, you end up with Aaron Maybin, JP Losman, Donte Whitner, John McCargo.

 

I would argue that the teams biggest need entering that draft was "playmakers" on offense. That offense was totally devoid of a dynamic offensive treat. Lynch was on his way out the door. FJax was about to be on the wrong side of 30. That offense had nobody even close to Spiller's level of athletic ability: a dynamic offensive playmaker that can hurt the defense all over the place. He can do everything you need a RB to do. Can run between the tackles now. Has really improved his ability and vision to break tackles. You need a player like Spiller in todays NFL that can do everything. You can split him out and create a giant mismatch of him on a LB or SS. He has the speed to eat most CB's alive in this league, let alone a LB. Just look at what he was able to do aganst MIA's tough defense which FJax struggled against. I would argue that Spiller was the best offensive playmaker in the draft and filled the biggest need on the team at that time.

 

IMO, Spiller has only scratched the surface of his abilities. His numbers would have been even more stellar if he wasn't abandoned in a couple games in which he was dominating (TEN & another game). Players like CJ Spiller to come around very often. Kid put up 53 TD's at Clemson in the ACC.

 

Bottom line is that Nix inherited a team in total shambles; almost completely devoid of actual NFL players that were useful. It was clearly at least a 3 year rebuild with the dumpster fire that Jauron and Levy left this team in. Nearly the entire defense had to be rebuilt. I think he has done a pretty good job myself. When everyone was healthy in only year 2 of the rebuild, this team was very dangerous and was able to beat NE for the first time in ages. I think we will make a couple key FA signings for once this offseason and use the draft to really round out this defense. If you step back off the ledge and look at how much more talent we have, I think Nix has done pretty good. With his two 1st round picks, he has acquired cornerstone, multiple pro-bowl players in CJ Spiller and Marcell Dareus.

Edited January 21, 2012 by ShhitGoose

[thewildrabbit]

Jason Piere Paul was listed as a very risky prospect going into that draft. No question he had the physical skills to succeed. But, if my memory serves me well, there were concerns that he wasn't exactly a "high motor" player. Questions about his consistency; enough to warrant passing on him in the top 10.

This team needed immediate help in a few areas in order to win games. I have no idea where you got the Info that JPP was a questionable pick. Here is what I found on the guy.

 

""After posting an unoffical time of 4.64 (later changed to an official 4.67), NFL Network draft expert Mike Mayock said, "Pierre-Paul's time solidifies him as a top-10 pick."

and....

""Perhaps the best wrap up of Pierre-Paul's day come from ESPN.com Draft expert Todd McShay, who wrote on his blog:

 

"Our two top-rated defensive ends -- Pierre-Paul and (Derrick) Morgan -- delivered strong showings on Monday, as well.

 

"Pierre-Paul measured just shy of 6-5 and at 270 pounds was a little heavier than we expected. That's a good thing, though, because there are some concerns about his ability to hold up against the run. He also has the kind of length that makes scouts salivate with 34¾ arms and 10⅜ hands.

 

"What makes Pierre-Paul so special, though, is his best-in-class quickness. He ran a 4.67 and moved very well for his size, the kind of tools that give him the potential to be a dominant pass rusher at the next level. His bench press was only 19 reps, and he needs to develop his upper-body strength, but Pierre-Paul has a very high ceiling."

http://www.gousfbull...TCLID=204899254

 

 

 

All of these magical LT's people keep saying we could have drafted don't really exist. Time and time again I hear people harp on this point but they fail to realize that there really wasn't one there worth the 9th pick. Bulaga had major concerns. He was remarked as "soft" by a few scouts pre-draft. Many questioned his ability to man the LT spot in the NFL. He still hasn't broken thru at LT for GB. Only has played LT due to injuries. Anthony Davis also had question marks. Work ethic questions and concerns about whether he could really hold down LT in the NFL. I love how posters always say that they should have taken a LT there but in reality, there wasn't a LT worth the 9th pick.

 

Total homer BS in justifying the Spiller pick over a OT, nothing magical needed about Anthony Davis as he has started at RT for the 49ers since being drafted in 2010 with the 11th pick and has locked down that position since day one. Not only that he has stated all 16 games in both 2010 & 2011

I think Spiller was a great pick for this team. Nix went BPA, which is what you ALWAYS should do with your 1st round pick; especially in top 10. Once you start going for "need" players with your 1st round pick, you end up with Aaron Maybin, JP Losman, Donte Whitner, John McCargo.

Those last 4 names are the result of an incompetent scouting dept under Jauron and Tom Modrak, things were supposed to change under Buddy Nix

 

I would argue that the teams biggest need entering that draft was "playmakers" on offense. That offense was totally devoid of a dynamic offensive treat. Lynch was on his way out the door. FJax was about to be on the wrong side of 30. That offense had nobody even close to Spiller's level of athletic ability: a dynamic offensive playmaker that can hurt the defense all over the place. He can do everything you need a RB to do. Can run between the tackles now. Has really improved his ability and vision to break tackles. You need a player like Spiller in todays NFL that can do everything. You can split him out and create a giant mismatch of him on a LB or SS. He has the speed to eat most CB's alive in this league, let alone a LB. Just look at what he was able to do aganst MIA's tough defense which FJax struggled against. I would argue that Spiller was the best offensive playmaker in the draft and filled the biggest need on the team at that time.

More total homer BS as the Bills were actually deep in talent at the RB position and already had 2 play makers at RB. If anything they needed a TE and WR at the play makers spot in 2010. Stevie Johnson was an unknown at the time and Lee Evans needed help on the other side since they let TO walk.

 

IMO, Spiller has only scratched the surface of his abilities. His numbers would have been even more stellar if he wasn't abandoned in a couple games in which he was dominating (TEN & another game). Players like CJ Spiller to come around very often. Kid put up 53 TD's at Clemson in the ACC.

 

I really hate to break this to you but CJ Spiller hasn't proven anything yet, the guy has had exactly ONE 100 yard game so far, and he wouldn't have gotten that one if Fred Jackson doesn't go on IR. In the very first game of 2010 Spiller was named the teams official RB starter as both Lynch and Jackson were somewhat injured. That lasted about 4 plays until HC Chan Gailey saw that his #1 pick couldn't block for protections, couldn't find a hole, couldn't run a route and was promptly benched. Chan Gailey even made the absurd statement after drafting him that " he will make the line block better", what a freaking joke.

 

Bottom line is that Nix inherited a team in total shambles; almost completely devoid of actual NFL players that were useful. It was clearly at least a 3 year rebuild with the dumpster fire that Jauron and Levy left this team in. Nearly the entire defense had to be rebuilt. I think he has done a pretty good job myself. When everyone was healthy in only year 2 of the rebuild, this team was very dangerous and was able to beat NE for the first time in ages. I think we will make a couple key FA signings for once this offseason and use the draft to really round out this defense. If you step back off the ledge and look at how much more talent we have, I think Nix has done pretty good. With his two 1st round picks, he has acquired cornerstone, multiple pro-bowl players in CJ Spiller and Marcell Dareus.

 

No! In fact he did not inherit a team a in total shambles and almost completely devoid of talent. I know that's what you homers who love to defend him state over and over, buts its not even close to being a true statement!!! Even Buddy Nix came out and stated " I know your not going to believe this, but we are not that far away" Remember that line? Buddy Nix thought the team was close to being a playoff team or he wouldn't have made that statement.

 

This regime inherited Ryan Fitzpatrick- Fred Jackson- Stevie Johnson- Kyle Williams- George Wilson. The true stars on this team were already on the team. It was Buddy Nix & Chan Gailey job to find others like them. So far the only player they have found in the draft that started from day one last year was the #3 overall pick. All the rest only started because of injuries to the real starters. two years, one real starter

 

The fact that the man brought in Cornell Green at all thinking he was an adequate RT was a freaking joke at someones ability to judge talent! Why should he get a pass on this? This free agent acquisition was a critical key move in locking down a very desperate position of NEED! Not only did Green not lock down the position he was absolutely horrible as a starting RT. The team quietly benched him for some mysterious injury and the quietly released him after 7 games. So now that Green was an abject failure Buddy Nix scouted the waiver wire and plucked some less then elite cast offs from other teams that needed to step in, basically guys off the street. This Cornell Green experiment was a "band-aid" move that didn't work out, and here it is 3 years later and the Bills STILL need a decent LT & RT. That is abject failure in my book!

 

The Bills are currently forced into a quick, short passing scheme because that O line can't protect more then 3 seconds. They still need 2 top OT's and a decent backup or starting center, depending on how Eric Wood recovers.

 

Why should Nix get a pass on 2-3 of the most important positions on the team that would have allowed them to win more games? It doesn't take 3 years to find a decent RT or LT or pass rusher. IDC what any of the homers say, its not true. No matter how badly you want to defend them The BPA doesn't cut it when you have a team desperate for help in certain critical areas. BPA is for teams that already have a strong roster and are not desperate like the Bills are. The BPA argument is moronic simply because what if its a RB at the #1draft spot for 10 years in a row, you are not going to keep drafting RB's year after year, or any particular position over and over.

 

Bottom line is the team was desperate at 2- 3 areas in 2010, and here it is 3 years later and they are STILL desperate at those same positions. The impact that OT Anthony Davis or JPP would have made on the 2010 Bills team would have been an instant, and would have resulted in many more wins over the last 2 years IMO.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Fear the Beard

[RuntheDamnBall]

Good post John. Let's talk about the 2011 draft for a moment, ok?

 

Overall, I would rate it as good. We got a superior DT, 3 defensive backs who look as if they can play, and Hairston, who I think will be a very good RT at some point. And, he has proven that he can fill in at LT. I omitted Sheppard because I am not so impressed. But as you can see, I have no major quarrel with your assessment of the 2011 draft. However, the team is still without any real pass rush, a dependable LT, or a star quarterback. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think we lost 5 games by 7 points or less. I am thinking that pass rush alone might have won us 2 of those, especially the Bengals game vs. a rookie.

 

Now, let's jump to 2012 if you will. Ralph has all but announced that we are going to draft a wideout at #10. Like the Spiller selection, this would excite some fans and sell tickets, but it probably won't win us football games, even if the wr is "good". If the Bills strengthen the key 3 elements listed above, the 2011 draft will look even better. If not, they will still lose more than they win due to a shaky foundation.

 

As you well know, pass rushers and LTs are hard to get. We need to use our best resources to strengthen these positions of great need. It's just so obvious to me. We are not losing football games in a vacuum. You call for steady improvement above. So do I. We won't get it by wasting more prime draft picks at "skill" position. A foundation is desperately needed.

 

Jmo.

Bill, I've always got one foot aboard your train and I'll never be mad at the idea of fortifying either of the lines, but I really do take issue with the idea that these small skill players sell tickets, and that that's the reason they are drafted. As we've seen towards the end of every season, there are empty seats at RWS, and the draft picks seem to have precious little impact there. Plus, those exciting skill players really only seem to come at the top of the draft once every four years or so. Even the Steelers and Patriots aren't going to commit to never drafting skill players in R1. Honestly, the only way I see draft picks impacting ticket sales at all is if we draft a bona fide franchise quarterback, because sink or swim, those guys generate interest. Short of that, ticket sales are really only going to be impacted by a team in the playoff race. The first few games when the weather is good will sell out, as will those against a truly interesting opponent. But I need to see some evidence on this case you're making before accepting it any longer.

 

I will agree with you that I think Ralph, like Al Davis, favors certain kinds of offensive players and thinks they contribute disproportionately to a winning team, but if we somehow end up with Justin Blackmon at our current position, I for one won't be crying about it. If he thinks that they contribute to ticket sales, and this is the rationale for questionable draft picks, we're probably more f--ked than it appears on the surface. I don't think this is the case.

 

That said, you will never find me disagreeing that a strong pass rush would mean the world to this team.

[thewildrabbit]

Bill, I've always got one foot aboard your train and I'll never be mad at the idea of fortifying either of the lines, but I really do take issue with the idea that these small skill players sell tickets, and that that's the reason they are drafted. As we've seen towards the end of every season, there are empty seats at RWS, and the draft picks seem to have precious little impact there. Plus, those exciting skill players really only seem to come at the top of the draft once every four years or so. Even the Steelers and Patriots aren't going to commit to never drafting skill players in R1. Honestly, the only way I see draft picks impacting ticket sales at all is if we draft a bona fide franchise quarterback, because sink or swim, those guys generate interest. Short of that, ticket sales are really only going to be impacted by a team in the playoff race. The first few games when the weather is good will sell out, as will those against a truly interesting opponent. But I need to see some evidence on this case you're making before accepting it any longer.

 

I will agree with you that I think Ralph, like Al Davis, favors certain kinds of offensive players and thinks they contribute disproportionately to a winning team, but if we somehow end up with Justin Blackmon at our current position, I for one won't be crying about it. If he thinks that they contribute to ticket sales, and this is the rationale for questionable draft picks, we're probably more f--ked than it appears on the surface. I don't think this is the case.

 

That said, you will never find me disagreeing that a strong pass rush would mean the world to this team.

Simply go back to the TO signing to understand what impact the skill players have on selling tickets, season ticket sales were slumping that year and his signing made an immediate impact as season tickets surged after he signed with the Bills for 6.5 million for one year.

 

 

The reason why the TO experiment failed in Buffalo in 2009 was because of the failure to build that O line properly Bell- Scott- Levitre- Hangartner- Wood- Chambers.....Bell 8 GS- Scott 8 GS- Wood 10 GS- Chambers 9 GS. 3 of those 5 are no longer even on the Bills roster, and the line was ravaged by injuries.

 

You may ask why the O line would result in a TO failure or a 6-10 year. That was the year dickhead Jauron cut his OC two weeks before the season started and AVP the QB coach took over both OC & QB coach duties. Not only that, but Jauron also cut the starting RT in Langston Walker ( who went back to the Raiders to start at RT for them) earlier Jauron had cut G Derrick Dockery. This was also the off season that the team traded away pro bowl LT Jason Peters. So the entire O line at every position was changed to a new player

 

Now add in the fact that (unlike Chan Gailey who set up a short passing game to overcome the deficiencies in the O line) AVP kept calling for mid to deep passes and the QB simply didn't have the time or pocket to drop back that deep.

 

The current Buffalo Bills O line was still in flux all season. The stats say that line is pretty decent. But the truth is that line is was just as weak as it was in 09-10-11 due to injuries to the starting LT & Center. The center position was the real Achilles heal as they tried to play 4-5 different players in that position and none were even close to Eric Woods ability. Also, the team was forced to try and play guard Levitre at LT because of injuries to both Bell and Hairston.

 

 

 

 

This team is desperate for a pass rusher and help for that O line.... and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the team draft a WR or a CB with that #1, its what this team does.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Simply go back to the TO signing to understand what impact the skill players have on selling tickets, season ticket sales were slumping that year and his signing made an immediate impact as season tickets surged after he signed with the Bills for 6.5 million for one year.

Nice post, but your example here is one of apples where I'm talking about oranges. Of course signing one of the NFL's most prolific receivers, one with a penchant for drama and a Super Bowl appearance under his belt, jumped ticket sales in a year that looked otherwise bleak. You're welcome to be (legitimately) cynical about that one. I still see zero proof that drafting a guy like CJ Spiller causes a bigger spike in ticket sales than does drafting a guy like Dareus.

 

As for WRs and CBs: Yep, that's what this team does. But unfortunately those have been the picks they "hit" on with greater reliability. Not re-signing those who achieve, and then forcing the influx of new talent at those positions should be considered an issue separate from draft strategy meant to improve the team.

[KD in CA]

1326746619[/url]' post='2364668']

I'm not wedded to the notion of taking an OT with our first pick. With the first pick I want a good ratio of talent and need. If one of the top two rated LTs fall to us, Khalil or Reiff, then I'm not adverse to bolstering the OL.

 

Khalil will be long gone, but Martin and/or Reiff are likely to be available. I would also be comfortable getting a solid OT to replace Bell (I don't believe he'll be resigned) even though pass rush is probably a bigger need. I'd say differently if there was a premier DE in this draft, but I don't trust Couples and don't think the Bills can afford another first round whiff.

Sadly, I share Bill's pessimism that they will instead go for the 'get rich quick' strategy once again and take a WR, and it will go down as another awful decision.

[JohnC]

Khalil will be long gone, but Martin and/or Reiff are likely to be available. I would also be comfortable getting a solid OT to replace Bell (I don't believe he'll be resigned) even though pass rush is probably a bigger need. I'd say differently if there was a premier DE in this draft, but I don't trust Couples and don't think the Bills can afford another first round whiff.

Sadly, I share Bill's pessimism that they will instead go for the 'get rich quick' strategy once again and take a WR, and it will go down as another awful decision.

 

Don't get imprisoned with the idea that you have to address a need at the expense of a better talent, reagardless (mostly) of a position. If you have a higher ranked OT than a questionable prospect at DE/OLB then it would be foolish to fall into the "Maybin mentality" trap: the necesessity to address a critical weakness at the expense of better talent at other positions.

 

At this point Blackmon, a receiver, is rated in the vicinity of the top five. If he should fall to us at the ten spot (very unlikely) I would gleefully snatch him up. A talent such as Blackmon is going to make Johnson a better receiver and will also give more space to our running games. Don't you think that Fitz would be a better qb with a Blackmon type receiver as a target instead of those middling receivers he is currently throwing to?

 

The trap that many people fall into is that they make the assumption that just because you don't address a critical need with your first pick you can't be able to address the particular need with a second or third round pick. Another avenue to fill a void is through free agency. Not every free agent acquistion has to be a big money pickup. A quality player can be found to fill a void for a reasonable price if the organization doing the evaluation is smart.

 

The Ravens under their GM Newsome and the Packers under their GM Thompson have a general philosophy of drafting according to their draft board, regardless of position. No one can deny that they have had sustained success. That is the model that the Bills should follow. The Bills approach has to get away from the "moment" mind-set and start thinking in a more "long-term" basis.

Edited January 22, 2012 by JohnC