Offensive Tackles

[syrcuse315]

I am still for drafting a pass rusher DE or OLB/DE. It's our biggest need. The problem is is that if that elite day 1 starter at one of those positions isn't there at #10 and one of the premier LTs is....you get the LT plug him in and the Left side of your line is set for years with Levitre and Wood. People that keep banging the QB drum don't often pay attention to the fact that those guys have SOLID LTs.

 

Pass rusher first no doubt ...but if that guy isn't there and a premier day 1 starter LT is ....you run up to the podium with the card.

 

I would agree for the most part with that and that's how I see it as well. There isn't any standout elite pass rushers in this draft so if buffalo doesn't trade down for an extra 1st or 2nd pick then I'm all for best available player. A LT this year, given how our line is now could solidify our offensive line for many years. A pass rush is the biggest need no doubt and my dream would be that buffalo acquires one in FA so we can take reiff in the draft. A tackle as nix said can transition to a guard much easier than a G to a tackle and I agree 100%. I know the interior line is solid but an extra tackle say reiff who can start day one, allows guys like hariston and bell (if resigned) to not only be solid backups but to fill in for almost any line position. It could not only upgrade the line but provide serious depth all over. If Bell gets hurt again, not a problem we would have reiff and hariston, who knows maybe hariston or bell could transition to RT and play just as well on that side of the line.

 

I'm truly hoping that buffalo can do something in free agency and w/e we get in free agency, we need to not focus on that in the 1st round of the draft.

Edited January 16, 2012 by syrcuse315

[C.Biscuit97]

That trade could go down as one of the worst of the decade, and I know it allowed Buffalo to select Eric Wood.

 

Teams don't deal All-Pro OT's for draft picks. Unless they're looking to dump salary and have maligned the player in advance to make said deal more palatable to a fan base.

 

Meanwhile, Peters is 1st Team All-Pro in 2011 by a wide margin and the Bills are debating whether to sign an oft-injured type or start a bad bodied 2nd year man more suited to the right side.

 

For an 8-8 team that the Bills beat.

 

Yeah, how could we ever survive without the great Jason Peters? If you seriously think the reason the Bills finished 6-10 was because of our tackles, you're completely delusional.

[bouds]

That trade could go down as one of the worst of the decade, and I know it allowed Buffalo to select Eric Wood.

 

Teams don't deal All-Pro OT's for draft picks. Unless they're looking to dump salary and have maligned the player in advance to make said deal more palatable to a fan base.

 

Meanwhile, Peters is 1st Team All-Pro in 2011 by a wide margin and the Bills are debating whether to sign an oft-injured type or start a bad bodied 2nd year man more suited to the right side.

You're forgetting the part where Peters played out of shape. You can go around saying that the org painted him as a malcontent but the results were clear to anyone. He came in out of shape and played like an absolute dog, and this is only a year after he received an extension.

 

The real problem was Walker and Dockery, especially Dock. Both were making more money and he was outplaying both after just receiving a marginal extension. Dockery was in his ear telling him how underpaid and under appreciated he was, and Peters decided to act on it.

 

Instead of blaming his representation/agent for getting him an absolute dog **** contract, he took it out on the team. His agent should've never accepted the meek contract extension, should've negotiated better terms, and Peters never would've gone to the lengths he did to get out of Buffalo. Peters didn't point the finger at his agent for failing to get proper value on his first contract, he pointed it straight at the Bills. Not their fault his rep was ****, all the agent wanted was a new contract because that's how he gets paid.

 

His agent !@#$ed him to begin with, got his check, and then told his client to hold out and ask for more money. Another/newer contract means another fat check for the agent. Point the blame at the greedy agent for turning Peters into the malcontent twat he became.

 

It's good that Peters is finally living up to his full potential, finally earning the money, and finally making the all pro team. Only took 3 years after he signed that huge extension. People also fail to mention how the Eagles brought in Mudd, a stern coach, just to whip his ass back into proper form.

Edited January 16, 2012 by bouds

[Astrobot]

Drafting a useless Wang was a huge disappointment - now the Bills need to

 

Adcock

 

 

 

(Kind of reminds me of a Kent-Hull-good-ol'-country-boy type of guy - if he's there in round 2, the Bills should grab him.)

 

And bring in Bushrod?

[JohnC]

You're forgetting the part where Peters played out of shape. You can go around saying that the org painted him as a malcontent but the results were clear to anyone. He came in out of shape and played like an absolute dog, and this is only a year after he received an extension.

 

The real problem was Walker and Dockery, especially Dock. Both were making more money and he was outplaying both after just receiving a marginal extension. Dockery was in his ear telling him how underpaid and under appreciated he was, and Peters decided to act on it.

 

Instead of blaming his representation/agent for getting him an absolute dog **** contract, he took it out on the team. His agent should've never accepted the meek contract extension, should've negotiated better terms, and Peters never would've gone to the lengths he did to get out of Buffalo. Peters didn't point the finger at his agent for failing to get proper value on his first contract, he pointed it straight at the Bills. Not their fault his rep was ****, all the agent wanted was a new contract because that's how he gets paid.

 

His agent !@#$ed him to begin with, got his check, and then told his client to hold out and ask for more money. Another/newer contract means another fat check for the agent. Point the blame at the greedy agent for turning Peters into the malcontent twat he became.

 

It's good that Peters is finally living up to his full potential, finally earning the money, and finally making the all pro team. Only took 3 years after he signed that huge extension. People also fail to mention how the Eagles brought in Mudd, a stern coach, just to whip his ass back into proper form.

 

I understand how frustrated JP was when Dockery and Langston Walker were brought in as free agents and got paid sizeably more than he was. Our incompetent organization under Levy/Jauron/Guy brought in average to below average talent and paid them at an all-pro level. How much sense does that make? Then to compound our line problems they subsequently moved Walker, a credible RT, and moved him to the vacated left side where he was blatantly unsuited. Stupidity piled on top of more stupidity.

 

What Peters should have done (as you suggest) is let his contract run out instead of prematurely getting an upgrade and force the team to pay him big money or franchise him into a sizeable one year contract. If he would have been more patient and strategic he could have sooner placed himself on the open market and for sure dramatically garnered a premium contract.

 

A large portion of the decision making process for this losing organization is unduly based on finances than on football reasons. In a cap system contracts always come into play when making personnel decisions. It is simply a byproduct of the system. But with the Bills the finance people in the organization have a disproportionate amount of influence compared to most normally run franchises.

 

In hindsight this franchise got an UDFA player. Had the creativity to move him from the TE position and develop him into being a impact player at tackle. Ultimately they lost him to another organization. What a waste.

 

Smart and winning organizations pay the market rate to retain their best players at the key positions. The Bills organization have a long history of not be a smart or winning organization.

[BillsVet]

For an 8-8 team that the Bills beat.

 

Yeah, how could we ever survive without the great Jason Peters? If you seriously think the reason the Bills finished 6-10 was because of our tackles, you're completely delusional.

 

Not surprisingly none of that has anything to do with the trade, which was so one-sided in terms of personnel that it's mind boggling. Meanwhile, the Bills continue to have a huge need at OT with one guy who can't remain healthy and another who's a project.

 

Buffalo's best OL of the entire decade was allowed out the door for draft picks. Question for you is, does having Peters get you closer to the playoffs or not? He's been 1st or 2nd team All-Pro 4 out of 5 years and if you think Peters was the problem on Philadelphia's 2011 team, you're wrong again.

[JPS]

Drafting a useless Wang was a huge disappointment - now the Bills need to

 

Adcock

 

 

 

(Kind of reminds me of a Kent-Hull-good-ol'-country-boy type of guy - if he's there in round 2, the Bills should grab him.)

Hyuge from Michigan. Adcock. Here we go again.

[Mr. WEO]

Just about every franchise in the NFL would take an elite LT over an elite TE in the draft. An elite OT usually is gone within the first four or five picks. This year LT KaliL from USC probably will be taken with the second pick in the draft while a TE most likely won't be taken in the first round. I'm not saying you are wrong in your position rankings---what I'm saying is that your position is not in the mainstream, at least with the NFL talent evaluators.

 

With respect to your comments that the mentioned losing franchises made bad decisions regarding the qb position I have a different perspective. Acquiring an elite qb is a major challenge. There are few opportunities to be in position to grab one. Last year Chan Gailey was very candid that if he had the opportunity to draft Newton he would have done so. As you know Carolina took him with the first pick.

 

You made the conjecture that if Fitz had his druthers he would prefer an elite TE over an elite LT. I'm not sure that is the case, especially if you asked him after he was pummeled by the defense. Maybe there is a question whether Fitz prefers a TE over a LT, but I have no doubt that if you asked Nix or Gailey they would in unison dismiss the TE thought and run to the podium to announce the selection of a LT.

 

I get that LTs go in the top 10 year after year, John--my whole point is that those are almost always mediocre to bad teams picking there and I don't understand why they continue to do it when there is little evidence that I see to support the "conventional wisdom" of doing so.

 

As many here have pointed out ad nauseum, Fitz was doing just fine "before the injury bug bit" behind a 1st rounder (Wood), a 2nd rounder (Levitre) and a couple of other journerymen/late rounders. He was one of the best QBs in the league for a month and a half. Even after the injuries, he was rarely sacked. He took a beating now and then, but it wasn't nearly the punishement Vick took in Philly--with a line featuring All-Pro Peters.

 

I think the defenses have become sophisticated enough that the LT position isn't as important as it used to be. Now you need a RB with superior blocking skills to face all the different blitzes/looks, for example. Conversely, the TE position is being revved up across the league as a major offensive weapon, as well as a blocking position.

 

"Talent evaluators" and GMs, etc. do many things that you and I scratch our heads at--despite them being the experts (wildy overpaying for FA CB's, for example, or overpaying for someone else's former backup QB). There is a herd mentality. But the successful GMs buck the "mainstream" position on LTs and they are doing fine. The rest of them keep spending top picks on LT and the results really never change.

 

I'm convinced Fitz would say, "Bell's fine, I'll take Jimmy Graham/Gronk/Davis". To me, it would make no sense for him to say otherwise.

[JohnC]

I get that LTs go in the top 10 year after year, John--my whole point is that those are almost always mediocre to bad teams picking there and I don't understand why they continue to do it when there is little evidence that I see to support the "conventional wisdom" of doing so.

 

As many here have pointed out ad nauseum, Fitz was doing just fine "before the injury bug bit" behind a 1st rounder (Wood), a 2nd rounder (Levitre) and a couple of other journerymen/late rounders. He was one of the best QBs in the league for a month and a half. Even after the injuries, he was rarely sacked. He took a beating now and then, but it wasn't nearly the punishement Vick took in Philly--with a line featuring All-Pro Peters.

 

I think the defenses have become sophisticated enough that the LT position isn't as important as it used to be. Now you need a RB with superior blocking skills to face all the different blitzes/looks, for example. Conversely, the TE position is being revved up across the league as a major offensive weapon, as well as a blocking position.

 

"Talent evaluators" and GMs, etc. do many things that you and I scratch our heads at--despite them being the experts (wildy overpaying for FA CB's, for example, or overpaying for someone else's former backup QB). There is a herd mentality. But the successful GMs buck the "mainstream" position on LTs and they are doing fine. The rest of them keep spending top picks on LT and the results really never change.

 

I'm convinced Fitz would say, "Bell's fine, I'll take Jimmy Graham/Gronk/Davis". To me, it would make no sense for him to say otherwise.

 

You can get highly productinve TEs such as Graham, Gronkowski, Hernandaz etc without using your first round pick. Davis from the 49ers was a first round pick, but he is more of an exception than the rule. Repeating a point that I have already made the impressive productivity of the TEs over the weekend has a lot to do with the exceptional passing ability of the premier qbs making the passes. When teams have upper tier qbs such as Rodgers, Brees and Brady making the throws there should be no surprise that the TEs and receivers in general become more effective.

 

In my view Fitz is an average to below average caliber starting qb. He had few sacks simply because he threw mostly short and quick passes . As the season advanced defenses adjusted to his short passing game and made him very ineffective. I'm not discounting that Fitz had a hot start. He played at a very high level for almost the first half of the season. The defenses caught up to his basic short game ressulting in him sinking to his actual level of being average. Fitz is the type of qb from which you can be respectable. Nothing more.

Edited January 17, 2012 by JohnC

[mob16151]

Datko might be a nice target in RD 3. Tons of talent, just had a hard time staying healthy.

[thewildrabbit]

My - how convenient of you to choose "the last two years" and even at that you are wrong.

 

As we all would like to forget - 3 years ago they took Maybin as their 1st rounder.

 

Two years ago they took Carrington in the 3rd.

 

(They needed to do a better job against the run back then too, btw)

 

Oh - and this just in - they drafted this season's leading sack-man in the first round this year. Yeah - he's more of a 4-3 DT type, but that still helps the pass rush. Pretty sure they'd have gone with Von Miller if he was there and Dareus wasn't.

 

Other than that, you made a lot of sense.

 

I stated two years because that is what this regime has had, 2 drafts, 2 free agency periods.

 

Yea well did you read Carringtons combine report? More of a run stopper then pass rusher. What kind of impact has this player had in sacks so far?

 

I'd have to say that MD is more adapt at run stuffing then pass rushing, even when he did play DE. While no one is arguing that MD is a major upgrade at DT for this team, he is by no means a dominate pass rusher that the team is so desperate for.

 

Oh, this just in- the Bills are STILL desperate for a dominate pass rusher, in case you missed it ...

 

 

 

 

 

Other then that your love as a homer is undeniable

[gobillsinytown]

Yea well did you read Carringtons combine report? More of a run stopper then pass rusher. What kind of impact has this player had in sacks so far?

 

I'd have to say that MD is more adapt at run stuffing then pass rushing, even when he did play DE. While no one is arguing that MD is a major upgrade at DT for this team, he is by no means a dominate pass rusher that the team is so desperate for.

 

Oh, this just in- the Bills are STILL desperate for a dominate pass rusher, in case you missed it ...

 

Other then that your love as a homer is undeniable

 

You both make valid points......but the theory behind them is: To consistently make the playoffs, the Bills need:

1. A solid O-Line

2. A solid front seven.

 

That being said, I think the O-line is farther along than the front seven. An edge rusher on the D line or a pass rushing linebacker should be next in free agency and or draft.

Edited January 17, 2012 by gobillsinytown

[HuSeYiN1978]

No worries, the Bills won't waste an early pick on any OT's as there are far to many skill players that entice them

 

Looking at that NY Giants pass rush and how they just killed the Packers.... can anyone figure out why this team hasn't bothered to even try and draft a pass rusher with an early pick the last two years?

 

2 words - May Bin... Another couple words - That's Why

[The Senator]

And bring in Bushrod?

 

 

(Unless, of course, Damien Woody wants to come out of retirement!)

[tennesseeboy]

It is a toss up of two positions of absolutely critical need, OT and a pass rushing defensive front seven player. I think Rief will be an outstanding catch at 10, but there may be a better defensive lineman and I could live with such a pick. OT is the smart pick and has been for a number of years.

[BobChalmers]

I stated two years because that is what this regime has had, 2 drafts, 2 free agency periods.

 

Yea well did you read Carringtons combine report? More of a run stopper then pass rusher. What kind of impact has this player had in sacks so far?

 

I'd have to say that MD is more adapt at run stuffing then pass rushing, even when he did play DE. While no one is arguing that MD is a major upgrade at DT for this team, he is by no means a dominate pass rusher that the team is so desperate for.

 

Oh, this just in- the Bills are STILL desperate for a dominate pass rusher, in case you missed it ...

 

 

 

 

 

Other then that your love as a homer is undeniable

 

Can't address every position at once. Again - who would you have had them draft last year after Miller was taken??

 

Are you arguing they didn't need Aaron Williams in the 2nd? It sure didn't/doesn't look that way by the end of the season - he's now the Bills' #1 CB.

 

Does my liking those two picks make me a homer??

 

 

Troupe certainly looks like a bad move - but the biggest problem for the team going in to 2010 (and still after) was the run defense.

 

It's only because they've done some work to shore up the run defense that the lack of pass rush can now be singled out as THE defensive problem.

 

They'll address it this year, big time, and if they don't screw up the picks the defense should be pretty sound.

Edited January 17, 2012 by BobChalmers

[BobChalmers]

I'm not wedded to the notion of taking an OT with our first pick. With the first pick I want a good ratio of talent and need. If one of the top two rated LTs fall to us, Khalil or Reiff, then I'm not adverse to bolstering the OL.

 

The statistic that the Bills gave up very few sacks is deceiving because most of our passing plays were quick hit passes. As I stated in a prior post I prefer taking an elite player with our first round selection, no matter the position, if we have the opportunity. Justin Blackmon, a receiver from OK STate is a player I wouldn't hesitate to take if he is on the board when our pick comes up.

 

Many fans get fixated with the first round selection and the desire to fill a need. If there is a need draft requirment it can also be fulfilled in the second and third rounds.

 

The bottom line is no matter what position is drafted the best way to achieve long term success is by making your picks count, especially the early rounds. The best way to accomplish that draft efficiency goal is to go after the best talent without (in general) regards to the position.

 

I suspect our positions aren't that far apart - and more importantly, Nix has made it pretty clear he's on the same page.

 

The only exception I would take is that IF Bell could be healthy, they would be fine at OLT - upgrading anywhere is nice, but a healthy Bell is a solid player.

 

I object (partially) to the notion that the pass blocking has all been scheme/Fitz.

 

Game 1 the Chiefs moved Tamba Hali away from Bell to across from Pears because Bell had him completely shut down. That's not quick release - that's Bell totally defeating top NFL pass rusher.

 

Nix said flat-out they will draft an OT - because Bell can't stay healthy. WHEN they draft one will hopefully be driven by who's available when they pick in a given round.

 

Given that they are committed to Fitz for now, they have four spots to look at as clear "needs".

 

Two of those spots are both pass rushers - they need two more than they have - OLB's or DE's depending on the formation.

 

One of them, again already pointed out by Nix, is a top WR added to Stevie - ot two if they can't resign Stevie.

 

I'd priortize those three players ahead of displacing Bell and Hairston, but acknowledge that the uncertainty there says going OLT isn't a bad move.

 

 

Apparently this makes me a homer - but Nix said he was going after improving the exact same positions I would have had him target. He said he's going to do it THIS OFFSEASON. If Nix doesn't follow through, we can all jump on him. If he does what he just said he would, why would I not be happy with him?

Edited January 17, 2012 by BobChalmers

[Mr. WEO]

Can't address every position at once. Again - who would you have had them draft last year after Miller was taken??

 

Are you arguing they didn't need Aaron Williams in the 2nd? It sure didn't/doesn't look that way by the end of the season - he's now the Bills' #1 CB.

 

Does my liking those two picks make me a homer??

 

 

Troupe certainly looks like a bad move - but the biggest problem for the team going in to 2010 (and still after) was the run defense.

 

It's only because they've done some work to shore up the run defense that the lack of pass rush can now be singled out as THE defensive problem.

They'll address it this year, big time, and if they don't screw up the picks the defense should be pretty sound.

Nix wasn't addressing the pass rush when he picked Dareus?

[JohnC]

I suspect our positions aren't that far apart - and more importantly, Nix has made it pretty clear he's on the same page.

 

The only exception I would take is that IF Bell could be healthy, they would be fine at OLT - upgrading anywhere is nice, but a healthy Bell is a solid player.

 

I object (partially) to the notion that the pass blocking has all been scheme/Fitz.

 

Game 1 the Chiefs moved Tamba Hali away from Bell to across from Pears because Bell had him completely shut down. That's not quick release - that's Bell totally defeating top NFL pass rusher.

 

Nix said flat-out they will draft an OT - because Bell can't stay healthy. WHEN they draft one will hopefully be driven by who's available when they pick in a given round.

 

Given that they are committed to Fitz for now, they have four spots to look at as clear "needs".

 

Two of those spots are both pass rushers - they need two more than they have - OLB's or DE's depending on the formation.

 

One of them, again already pointed out by Nix, is a top WR added to Stevie - ot two if they can't resign Stevie.

 

I'd priortize those three players ahead of displacing Bell and Hairston, but acknowledge that the uncertainty there says going OLT isn't a bad move.

 

 

Apparently this makes me a homer - but Nix said he was going after improving the exact same positions I would have had him target. He said he's going to do it THIS OFFSEASON. If Nix doesn't follow through, we can all jump on him. If he does what he just said he would, why would I not be happy with him?

 

I don't think there is much variance in our perspective.

 

What this relatively new front office has to do more than anything else to change the trajectory of this franchise is to hit on its early picks. Last year's draft was highly productive. The Spiller year draft is stil categorized (in my mind) as very questionable. I thought that when Troup was selected he was over drafted compared to where he was ranked as a prospect. I'm aware that he has been plagued with injuries but is he any better than being average when healthy? A second round pick should make more of a difference. The third round selection in that same year was Carrington. So far there is nothing distinguable about his play.

 

When Nix took over he stated that one of his priorities was to build a bigger and tougher roster. I think those were the prime reasons why he drafted Troup and Carrington. So far it appears that he got caught up on addressing the rosters physical needs instead of judging and ranking talent. Who knows, just maybe they both will develop into better players as they gain more experience?

[PDaDdy]

No worries, the Bills won't waste an early pick on any OT's as there are far to many skill players that entice them

 

Looking at that NY Giants pass rush and how they just killed the Packers.... can anyone figure out why this team hasn't bothered to even try and draft a pass rusher with an early pick the last two years?

 

Easy answer we were to busy NOT playing Maybin whose 6 sacks would have made him our team sack leader. We were also too invested in Shawn Merriman who hasn't put up any good numbers since 5 seasons ago. Apparently the only ones that thought Merriman still had gas in the tank were Merriman and Nix.