Adam Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Can anyone give me a reasonable explanation as to why, aside from the obvious PR concerns, that this is such a travesty? Is it that dead bodies are somehow super sacred and should never be desecrated? Do the character and actions of the person whose body it is have any impact on how sacred it is? If these were Nazis would it still be so awful? If these guys ass raped little boys or murdered innocent women and children for kicks would it make a difference? What if they just gang raped and murdered your mom? Then would we still need to show their corpse honor and respect? In death does everyone's rotting corpse ascend to some greater status? I really want to understand, because it seems to me like a bunch of you just need your string pulled, so please help me to see the error of my ways. How could they rape or commit any crime, if they are already dead- that showed a lot of bravery, on the part of our soldiers. I can't justify the action at all- dishonorable discharges for all of them. That better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) How could they rape or commit any crime, if they are already dead- that showed a lot of bravery, on the part of our soldiers. I can't justify the action at all- dishonorable discharges for all of them. That better? No, you still have yet to give a clear answer as to why it is such a travesty, whether all corpses are above desecration regardless of the charachter and/or acts of the now deceased person, and if so why. Edited January 13, 2012 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Can anyone give me a reasonable explanation as to why, aside from the obvious PR concerns, that this is such a travesty? Is it that dead bodies are somehow super sacred and should never be desecrated? Do the character and actions of the person whose body it is have any impact on how sacred it is? If these were Nazis would it still be so awful? If these guys ass raped little boys or murdered innocent women and children for kicks would it make a difference? What if they just gang raped and murdered your mom? Then would we still need to show their corpse honor and respect? In death does everyone's rotting corpse ascend to some greater status? I really want to understand, because it seems to me like a bunch of you just need your string pulled, so please help me to see the error of my ways. Because we are the Number 1 power in the world. The world looks up to us, we are suppose to set an example that we are above this sort of distastefullness. Just because our enemy are a bunch of vile creeps doesn´t mean that we should be vile as well. I´m gonna tell you this right now, those dudes !@#$ed up and anyone who thinks its ok has serious character deficiencies. Desecration of dead bodies is not acceptable in any circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) No, you still have yet to give a clear answer as to why it is such a travesty, whether all corpses are above desecration regardless of the charachter and/or acts of the now deceased person, and if so why. Yes. All corpses are above desecration. The deceased person is dead- there is no advantage to gain over them, nor will they commit an further crimes or attrocities. The people that did it are 100% cowards. Edited January 13, 2012 by Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Because we are the Number 1 power in the world. The world looks up to us, we are suppose to set an example that we are above this sort of distastefullness. Just because our enemy are a bunch of vile creeps doesn´t mean that we should be vile as well. I´m gonna tell you this right now, those dudes !@#$ed up and anyone who thinks its ok has serious character deficiencies. Desecration of dead bodies is not acceptable in any circumstance. You're not answering the ? either. I clearly said ASIDE FROM THE PR ASPECT, which is what the first part of your response concerned, and the second part of your response simply repeated your belief that corpse desecration is bad, without explaining why or if the conduct of the person being pissed on is relevant and why. Edited January 13, 2012 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 You're not answering the ? either. I clearly said ASIDE FROM THE PR ASPECT, which is what the first part of your response concerned, and the second part of your response simply repeated your belief that corpse desecration is bad, without explaining why or if the conduct of the person being pissed on is relevant and why. I am trying to find something I didn't cover. I don't care about the PR at all. Taking such an action without gaining some sort of military action is ridiculous. What is the corpse going to do? If you are going to do anything, give the corpse a proper funeral- and not for PR reasons, either. You call the Taliban soldiers soul less- I call these people soul less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Yes. All corpses are above desecration. The deceased person is dead- there is no advantage to gain over them, nor will they commit an further crimes or attrocities. The people that did it are 100% cowards. That's a little closer, but it's still only half an answer. Pointing out that they can no longer commit further crimes doesn't necessarily imply the horror of pissing on the body, nor does it give a clear cut explanation as to WHY the conduct of that person doesn't matter. For example: If Seal Team 6 had pissed on Bin Laden's dead body without taping it for internet distribution, would that be equally as horrific and should they be dishonorably discharged? Or if you're a WWII soldier and you 86 Hitler, is it really that beyond the pail to piss on his dead body? I'd really like Magox's opinion AND explanation on this one. Personally I think if you can't articulate why you believe something you don't really have a reason to believe it other than you arbitrarily adopted a particular more. I am trying to find something I didn't cover. I don't care about the PR at all. Taking such an action without gaining some sort of military action is ridiculous. What is the corpse going to do? If you are going to do anything, give the corpse a proper funeral- and not for PR reasons, either. You call the Taliban soldiers soul less- I call these people soul less. You're leaving out the WHY. You're just saying what should be in your opinion but not really supporting it with anything more than that's how you feel. Edited January 13, 2012 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Tom in your opinion strictly between Japan and the United States who committed the first act of war, Japan with Pearl Harbor or the United States with the embargo of oil and steel and freezing of Japan's financial assets. That's a tough question to answer objectively, since while economic sanctions or embargoes are not typically considered an act of war in typical Western thought, the Japanese from their own perspective were not entirely without a point that the economic sanctions threatened their own national security, as well as being rather hypocritical (there was something of a Victorian sense of racialism in all the Western powers' foreign policies that a non-Western nation should not be allowed to have imperial designs on par with Western nations. It was okay for Europeans to carve up China into spheres of influence, but God forbid the Japanese should have any interest). Subjectively, since you asked for my opinion...I believe war starts with the shooting, and everything before that is politics. Japan fired the first shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 No, you still have yet to give a clear answer as to why it is such a travesty, whether all corpses are above desecration regardless of the charachter and/or acts of the now deceased person, and if so why. Because a desecration isn't an attack on the person (they're dead and don't care)it's an attack on all the people who had any type of positive relationship with the person- Rob say you were the worst person in the world and had to be killed (who outside your few friends and family would shed a tear) but then they bring you body to your family and started pissing on it and doing other desecration too horrible to mention (your dead you don't give a !@#$) but what do you think that would do to your family, your friends? really Rob I know you are a Ayn Rand robot but try thinking like a human being for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) You're not answering the ? either. I clearly said ASIDE FROM THE PR ASPECT, which is what the first part of your response concerned, and the second part of your response simply repeated your belief that corpse desecration is bad, without explaining why or if the conduct of the person being pissed on is relevant and why. WTF are you talking about? I answered the question, desecration of bodies is unacceptable period. Thats like asking why is lying unacceptable or cheating? It´s just inherently wrong. I´m not a very religious person, but I respect most peoples religious beliefs, and on the battlefield while they are alive, most everything is fair game. But when they die, that´s it, it´s over. No need to desecrate their body, whats the !@#$ing point?? And btw, PR matters, it´s tangible. It has lasting effects, so lets not pretend that the PR aspect of this is something that we can dismiss. It´s an embarrassment to our country. Let´s not act like a bunch of isolantionist neanderthals, we are above that. Edited January 13, 2012 by Magox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) That's a little closer, but it's still only half an answer. Pointing out that they can no longer commit further crimes doesn't necessarily imply the horror of pissing on the body, nor does it give a clear cut explanation as to WHY the conduct of that person doesn't matter. For example: If Seal Team 6 had pissed on Bin Laden's dead body without taping it for internet distribution, would that be equally as horrific and should they be dishonorably discharged? Or if you're a WWII soldier and you 86 Hitler, is it really that beyond the pail to piss on his dead body? I'd really like Magox's opinion AND explanation on this one. Personally I think if you can't articulate why you believe something you don't really have a reason to believe it other than you arbitrarily adopted a particular more. You're leaving out the WHY. You're just saying what should be in your opinion but not really supporting it with anything more than that's how you feel. As Magox said, we are expected to behave in a certain manner (and I agree with that expectation.) We are supposed to be civilized. We killed them- we won. Pissing on the dead bodies, whether is is seen or not, is going for something beyond the victory. You can argue the value or non-value of public executions all you want, but once the person is dead, it should be over. Yes, if the Seal Team did that, they should be dishonorably discharged, whether we saw it or not. I will admit that I am not the most eloquent person in the world...... Edited January 13, 2012 by Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) WTF are you talking about? I answered the question, desecration of bodies is unacceptable period. Thats like asking why is lying unacceptable or cheating? It´s just inherently wrong. I´m not a very religious person, but I respect most peoples religious beliefs, and on the battlefield while they are alive, most everything is fair game. But when they die, that´s it, it´s over. No need to desecrate their body, whats the !@#$ing point?? And btw, PR matters, it´s tangible. It has lasting effects, so lets not pretend that the PR aspect of this is something that we can dismiss. It´s an embarrassment to our country. Dude, you disappoint me. I can give objective reasons as to why lying and cheating are unacceptalbe in some instances and I can explain why in others they are not. Telling me it's just inherently wrong is about as useful an argument as saying "because" or "nu-uh". If you can't articulate why you don't have a reason. As to PR, I'm not arguing that it doesn't matter. I'm asking what about the act itself is so horrible OTHER THAN the PR aspect. Try to keep up. I still want to know how both of you would feel about a jew whose children died in a concentration camp pissing on Hitler's corpse. Edited January 13, 2012 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Dude, you disappoint me. I can give objective reasons as to why lying and cheating are unacceptalbe in some instances and I can explain why in others they are not. Telling me it's just inherently wrong is about as useful an argument as saying "because" or "nu-uh". If you can't articulate why you don't have a reason. As to PR, I'm not arguing that it doesn't matter. I'm asking what about the act itself is so horrible OTHER THAN the PR aspect. Try to keep up. I still want to know how both of you would feel about a jew whose children died in a concentration camp pissing on Hitler's corpse. Can we at least agree that it's not justified in any context, and we're only arguing a question of degree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 . For example: If Seal Team 6 had pissed on Bin Laden's dead body without taping it for internet distribution, would that be equally as horrific and should they be dishonorably discharged? To answer your question, yes. It would of been a real tragedy if something like that got out...It would of undone alot of the good of taking out such a horrible human being. Rather than just doing the world a favor in sending Osama to wherever his afterlife is, we would of been heavily criticized and that´s how the rest of the world would remember about Osamas death. Not that he was just a piece of ****, but that the US showed their true colors in how they dealt with his death. That´s how we would of been remembered. We should be a country that leads, that shows class, even to our worst enemies. Because thats what a true super power should do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Dude, you disappoint me. I can give objective reasons as to why lying and cheating are unacceptalbe in some instances and I can explain why in others they are not. Telling me it's just inherently wrong is about as useful an argument as saying "because" or "nu-uh". If you can't articulate why you don't have a reason. As to PR, I'm not arguing that it doesn't matter. I'm asking what about the act itself is so horrible OTHER THAN the PR aspect. Try to keep up. I still want to know how both of you would feel about a jew whose children died in a concentration camp pissing on Hitler's corpse. I had family that lived through the horrors of the Holocaust. Once Adolph Hitler was dead, I didn't wish for anything futher to be done to his body. Would you be for taking a gun/knife and attacking the dead body? The person is gone. There is no longer a military objective. I will also add- our military should have reason for their actions- not just doing things for the heck of it- like this was. Edited January 13, 2012 by Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I still want to know how both of you would feel about a jew whose children died in a concentration camp pissing on Hitler's corpse. Why even ask such a hypothetical? Mussolini's and Petacci's corpses were actually desecrated...how does everyone feel about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Can we at least agree that it's not justified in any context, and we're only arguing a question of degree? I don't think that's any more true for this than for a revenge killing, which is usually wrong as well. However, if one's actions are so heinous and with such disregard to the rights and feelings of others they forfeit their rights to the courtesies usually afforded others. When one's acts are of such a heinous nature they find no redemption in death nor should they necessarily be afforded the courtesy of a proper burial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I don't think that's any more true for this than for a revenge killing, which is usually wrong as well. However, if one's actions are so heinous and with such disregard to the rights and feelings of others they forfeit their rights to the courtesies usually afforded others. When one's acts are of such a heinous nature they find no redemption in death nor should they necessarily be afforded the courtesy of a proper burial. So what did the Taliban fighters do that was so heinous and with such disregard to the rights and feelings of others" that they forfeited their rights to the courtesies usually afforded to others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Why even ask such a hypothetical? Mussolini's and Petacci's corpses were actually desecrated...how does everyone feel about that? It doesn't keep me up at night. The question was geared to lure them in to the other side of the degree argument. To be clear, I'm not advocating the behavior,I just don't get the outrage given the circumstances. And thus far Boone has provided a coherent explanation for said outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 I don't think that's any more true for this than for a revenge killing, which is usually wrong as well. However, if one's actions are so heinous and with such disregard to the rights and feelings of others they forfeit their rights to the courtesies usually afforded others. When one's acts are of such a heinous nature they find no redemption in death nor should they necessarily be afforded the courtesy of a proper burial. again you can't hurt the dead only the living, the friends, family and countrymen of the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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