Magox Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You should consider modifying it, but on the basis of defining "innocent civilian" in the context of total, industrial-scale war. I dont wanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I dont wanna Well, okeley-dokeley then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 No, it's not nitpicky at all. It's the central argument. "Punitive" actions are meant to punish. To argue the American prosecution of the war was punitive, you have to argue that the primary intent of any military action - such as the firebombing of Japan - was to punish, with strategic considerations secondary. So argue it. Show me the records of the XX Air Force's communications with the JCS or USAAF that represented the firebombing as punishment for Pearl Harbor. The records are available - at the very least, there's several sources on LeMay that should quote his motivations and justifications for switching from high-level "precision" bombing to low-level area bombing. Yes, because "punitive" is not a judgmental word. Are you channeling DIN today or something? Correct, its not a judgmental word as the word has no value associated with it as to whether punishment is right or wrong. Unless you're suggesting that punishment is never or always justified? You're right Tom, seeing as no military document will ever describe a mission objective as revenge or punishment I can produce nothing that constitutes proof. Improving morale of U.S. soldiers and citizens has been cited as an objective of the firebomb campaign and the Doolittle raids. Nothing quite like revenge to boost morale, wouldn't you say?, but no shred of evidence. Both events are also popularly described as revenge for Pearl, but again no proof and I don't put much stock in popular consensus anyway. Can't find anything from LeMay or Doolittle even hinting at revenge or punishment. You win, but don't call me DIN! That's just f'ing offensive and totally uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) In the same category of this post... http://www.bluestatepress.com/politics2/news_046.htm US Soldiers beating a sheep to death with a baseball bat. Graphic content. EDIT: and no, I'm not normally on the "Blue State Press"...just happened to be the site I was linked to. Edited January 12, 2012 by SageAgainstTheMachine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 In the same category of this post... http://www.bluestatepress.com/politics2/news_046.htm US Soldiers beating a sheep to death with a baseball bat. Graphic content. EDIT: and no, I'm not normally on the "Blue State Press"...just happened to be the site I was linked to. Well to be fair the livestock started it Then things started to escalate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 In the same category of this post... http://www.bluestatepress.com/politics2/news_046.htm US Soldiers beating a sheep to death with a baseball bat. Graphic content. EDIT: and no, I'm not normally on the "Blue State Press"...just happened to be the site I was linked to. And just like that lyrbob loses his fiancee. All seriousness aside, that was sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And just like that lyrbob loses his fiancee. All seriousness aside, that was sick. And it's not a comment on the content of character of the US military as some will try to spin both of these incidents...simply a reminder that the military is a cross section of the US population just like any other profession and there are bound to be some bad eggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And it's not a comment on the content of character of the US military as some will try to spin both of these incidents...simply a reminder that the military is a cross section of the US population just like any other profession and there are bound to be some bad eggs. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) You guys are all focusing on the minutia of the characterization rather than the substance of the action. Jesus And, no, desecration of a dead body combined with the optics of how our country is perceived worldwide is much worse than pissing on a live body. And the fact that you find this video ¨funny¨, pretty much says everything I need to know about you absolutely, magox. i'm just surprised that you're surprised. it's notable that comments similar to what was said here are reported in the brit newspaper story about this. i fear the "ugly american" label is much too often warranted. this is a disgrace and extremely harmful to our place in the world. comparing it to other atrocities is the ultimate rationalization. moral relativism is one of the greatest dangers facing the souls of all people now and forever. it's just a slip down the slippery slope to the loss of horizons altogether. Edited January 13, 2012 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Correct, its not a judgmental word as the word has no value associated with it as to whether punishment is right or wrong. Unless you're suggesting that punishment is never or always justified? You're right Tom, seeing as no military document will ever describe a mission objective as revenge or punishment I can produce nothing that constitutes proof. Improving morale of U.S. soldiers and citizens has been cited as an objective of the firebomb campaign and the Doolittle raids. Nothing quite like revenge to boost morale, wouldn't you say?, but no shred of evidence. Both events are also popularly described as revenge for Pearl, but again no proof and I don't put much stock in popular consensus anyway. Can't find anything from LeMay or Doolittle even hinting at revenge or punishment. You win, but don't call me DIN! That's just f'ing offensive and totally uncalled for. I don't win until you're capable of curing your own ignorance. Trace the doctrine of strategic bombing through the 30's, through the 8th AF's operations in Germany, the XX AF's operations in the CBI theater, and the XXI's early operations over Japan. And don't even think of bothering me with Griffith...almost everything he says on the matter is completely unsourced, and his thesis is inaccurate to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinElma Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 In the same category of this post... http://www.bluestatepress.com/politics2/news_046.htm US Soldiers beating a sheep to death with a baseball bat. Graphic content. EDIT: and no, I'm not normally on the "Blue State Press"...just happened to be the site I was linked to. Ever see the "Chechclear" video? chechclear The brutal execution of a young Russian soldier by Chechen Rebels. It depicts a man lying on his side while a knife is at his throat, then seconds later it is brought down into it. This video has become quite infamous due to the amount of gore and realism involved. You can find this video at Ogrish.com and similar websites. (You might want adjust the volume while you watch) You were saying something about a goat or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ever see the "Chechclear" video? You were saying something about a goat or something? What they did to the poor goat is just wrong. Beating it to death with a baseball bat while laughing their azzes off? On top of that it's made lyrbob lonelier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Maybe somebody should ask Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl about it. Oh, wait: The Islamists beheaded him — on videotape. Perspective, folks. Perspective. NY Post editorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My point is who the !@#$ thinks it is a good idea to film something like that? Yes war is hell and atrocities are most surely are going to be committed (one of the reasons to avoid war if at all possible) but a person who thinks it's a good idea to film such an act and more importantly even with time to reflect thinks it's good idea to put it on line has something seriously wrong with him. Yes, the people committing the act are far better than those who expose it......... If it were my family or friends they were pissing on, I can guarantee, it would be answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yes, the people committing the act are far better than those who expose it......... If it were my family or friends they were pissing on, I can guarantee, it would be answered. My point Adam is not only did they do something pretty disgusting but they thought it would be a good idea to film it- I don't really know who put online, one of the guys who thought it was cool or someone who thought it was terrible and wanted to expose it- I thought it was the former- Much like the guys who beat up a homeless man or criminals who have committed assaults, robberies, rapes etc etc and have uploaded their criminal acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My point Adam is not only did they do something pretty disgusting but they thought it would be a good idea to film it- I don't really know who put online, one of the guys who thought it was cool or someone who thought it was terrible and wanted to expose it- I thought it was the former- Much like the guys who beat up a homeless man or criminals who have committed assaults, robberies, rapes etc etc and have uploaded their criminal acts. the only problem I have with this whole incident is that their judgement was bad enough to video tape themselves doing this. What were they expecting to come out of this? Now they have opened themselves, the Corps and NATO up to criticism from the PC nazis. I honestly have no problem with their actions they just shouldn't have video taped it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Maybe somebody should ask Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl about it. Oh, wait: The Islamists beheaded him — on videotape. Perspective, folks. Perspective. NY Post editorial You are taking a flawed approach, what you are basically saying is look at this, they did worse, so it isn´t so bad what the Marines did. That´s just not the right way of looking at it. A more appropriate response would be, these guys !@#$ed up. And that´s it. the only problem I have with this whole incident is that their judgement was bad enough to video tape themselves doing this. What were they expecting to come out of this? Now they have opened themselves, the Corps and NATO up to criticism from the PC nazis. I honestly have no problem with their actions they just shouldn't have video taped it. What the !@#$ is wrong with you people? Edited January 13, 2012 by Magox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 You are taking a flawed approach, what you are basically saying is look at this, they did worse, so it isn´t so bad what the Marines did. That´s just not the right way of looking at it. A more appropriate response would be, these guys !@#$ed up. And that´s it. No, you are misinterpreting the article........it is requesting perspective in your response. You should read the entire thing first. The event merited a small column in the media. It exploded due to the graphic image, not the severity of the offense. The four Marines committed an offense for which they will be punished. The action was offensive, but it was not murder, rape, or mayhem. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 If these Marines have anything to be thankful for, it's that Bush isn't president. This story is already below the fold virtually everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 If these Marines have anything to be thankful for, it's that Bush isn't president. This story is already below the fold virtually everywhere. Exactly. It´s amazing how there isn´t a shred of blame being thrown at the Obama administration (which there really shouldn´t be anyway), but remember Abu Ghraib (sp)? Holy ****, you would of thought it was George Bush himself posing along with the inmates. It´s astonishing, it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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