8-8 Forever? Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Wow, someone in the local press actually wrote an article and said what many many fans, especially those that no longer live in WNY, believe.. that people just don't want to go there, all things (money, other opportunities) being equal. Wow, never thought I'd see someone with the guts to write it. The Bills are doomed in WNY. The best players, coaches and managers want no part of it when similar opportunities exist in one of the other 31 franchises. Winning cures everything, but it is a chicken and egg problem. Bills will not win again because they cannot get the talent to come, if the talent does not come, they cannot win. Talent won't come, because Ralph won't overpay for it, which I can respect. So there it is.
Trader Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Wow, someone in the local press actually wrote an article and said what many many fans, especially those that no longer live in WNY, believe.. that people just don't want to go there, all things (money, other opportunities) being equal. Wow, never thought I'd see someone with the guts to write it. The Bills are doomed in WNY. The best players, coaches and managers want no part of it when similar opportunities exist in one of the other 31 franchises. Winning cures everything, but it is a chicken and egg problem. Bills will not win again because they cannot get the talent to come, if the talent does not come, they cannot win. Talent won't come, because Ralph won't overpay for it, which I can respect. So there it is. Buffalo has always been a hard sell but when the Bills were winning and had stability at the top guys like Kelley, Bennet and Lofton did come here and they will again. Great coaches and GM's believe that there will be an ownership change here during the next few years. A new group would likely bring in a new coaching staff. There is a preceived Lack of stability. Would you change jobs and move accross the country if you thought your company was going to have a new management team in the next year or so?
MRM33064 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 ... There is a preceived Lack of stability ... Would you change jobs and move accross the country if you thought your company was going to have a new management team in the next year or so? That ^^^^^, plus a fairly long-running losing streak, a small market, a destination that is still (unfairly, but regularly) the punchline to jokes, a recent history of letting talent go elsewhere, and some good evidence of what the team will do when actually presented with a decision between whether to prioritize short-term cash flow or prioritize winning (take your pick of examples here: selling home games to another city, "cash to the cap", etc.) And ... all of these same recruiting issues must run organization wide. Case in point: you've got to BILL-ieve that neither Buddy's job nor Chan's job was coveted by any candidate that was being actively targeted for other opportunities. That same kind of thing must run to virtually every position available; that is, do we think the top candidates for any position dream about perfecting their skills with the Buffalo Bills? It's heart-breaking, but if this team wins again while Ralph is in charge, I think it'll require some serious, sustained luck - the kind that helped launch the team out of the gate at the beginning of this year.
Hplarrm Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Wow, someone in the local press actually wrote an article and said what many many fans, especially those that no longer live in WNY, believe.. that people just don't want to go there, all things (money, other opportunities) being equal. Wow, never thought I'd see someone with the guts to write it. The Bills are doomed in WNY. The best players, coaches and managers want no part of it when similar opportunities exist in one of the other 31 franchises. Winning cures everything, but it is a chicken and egg problem. Bills will not win again because they cannot get the talent to come, if the talent does not come, they cannot win. Talent won't come, because Ralph won't overpay for it, which I can respect. So there it is. I am not sure what planet you live on but the issues you point out probably do not get covered much because the situation is understood by just about anyone with even half a brain. Even the Bills official brass talks about these issues but uses buzzphrases like small market town and really seem to be most interested in the phenomena as a mechanism for prying an extra dollar out of the large market teams. Actually, I look at the reality of the line you are laying out merely as a cover story covering up the real thing which dooms the Bills which is that they repeatedly make lousy football decisions. They tend not to attract hiqh quality FAs not because they would rather go to happening towns like statisticslly even more empoverished cities like Cleveland or Detroit but because our team owner and beancounters like Littman repeatedly make bad football judgments. Here in the real world the problem is not that Mr. Ralph is always cheap as some like to pretend, its that the choose to open up the vault to get players like Dockery and Walker. The choose to use the bucdks to overpay a player like Kelsay rather than instead use the bucks to try to keep whose market value was set due to him repeatedly being named a Pro Bowler by a combo of peers, fans and coaches. Here in the real world there is a clear recogniton that even an undesirable burg like Buffalo can attract a legen in his own mind like Terrell Owens and even win a competition for a Pro Bowl talent like TKO. These signings of players still active is totally counter to the theory you lay out. Your theory actually ignores the reason why we are doomed which is that the guys in charge from owner on down are businessmen rather than sportsmen. Happening towns like Green Bay and even Indy until they ran out of gas have proven that the key to winning is not your town being desirable it is being football smart. My guess is that if the Rooneys had ended up with the Buffalo franchise instead of Mr. Ralph we would have the record of the Steelers. This town stuff even if true is merely an excuse to hide the real issue which is poor ownership.
bananathumb Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Finally, somebody pointed the finger at the Detroit Vulture. Nix is just a puppet of Wilson and his money men. Go get em, Bucky.
SouthernMan Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I am not sure what planet you live on but the issues you point out probably do not get covered much because the situation is understood by just about anyone with even half a brain. Even the Bills official brass talks about these issues but uses buzzphrases like small market town and really seem to be most interested in the phenomena as a mechanism for prying an extra dollar out of the large market teams. Actually, I look at the reality of the line you are laying out merely as a cover story covering up the real thing which dooms the Bills which is that they repeatedly make lousy football decisions. They tend not to attract hiqh quality FAs not because they would rather go to happening towns like statisticslly even more empoverished cities like Cleveland or Detroit but because our team owner and beancounters like Littman repeatedly make bad football judgments. Here in the real world the problem is not that Mr. Ralph is always cheap as some like to pretend, its that the choose to open up the vault to get players like Dockery and Walker. The choose to use the bucdks to overpay a player like Kelsay rather than instead use the bucks to try to keep whose market value was set due to him repeatedly being named a Pro Bowler by a combo of peers, fans and coaches. Here in the real world there is a clear recogniton that even an undesirable burg like Buffalo can attract a legen in his own mind like Terrell Owens and even win a competition for a Pro Bowl talent like TKO. These signings of players still active is totally counter to the theory you lay out. Your theory actually ignores the reason why we are doomed which is that the guys in charge from owner on down are businessmen rather than sportsmen. Happening towns like Green Bay and even Indy until they ran out of gas have proven that the key to winning is not your town being desirable it is being football smart. My guess is that if the Rooneys had ended up with the Buffalo franchise instead of Mr. Ralph we would have the record of the Steelers. This town stuff even if true is merely an excuse to hide the real issue which is poor ownership. Someone in this forum actually has a brain. Best post I've seen in a long time. BTW - generally speaking, players who've been on the Bills team love playing in Buffalo. It actually does have a decent reputation among NFL players as a good destination. But the reality is that potential free agents are veterans with limited years to play, and they want to play for teams that have potential to be winners in the near future. Rebuilding projects aren't typically at the top of the list for most FAs.
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 This town stuff even if true is merely an excuse to hide the real issue which is poor ownership. Exactly.
JÂy RÛßeÒ Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 The one avenue where people don't have much choice whether to come here or not is the draft. Sure they can hold out and try to force a trade but that's counter-productive. So drafting well is our main way to improve. And we've only recently started doing that.
Enemarty Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Actually, I look at the reality of the line you are laying out merely as a cover story covering up the real thing which dooms the Bills which is that they repeatedly make lousy football decisions. They tend not to attract hiqh quality FAs not because they would rather go to happening towns like statisticslly even more empoverished cities like Cleveland or Detroit but because our team owner and beancounters like Littman repeatedly make bad football judgments. Here in the real world the problem is not that Mr. Ralph is always cheap as some like to pretend, its that the choose to open up the vault to get players like Dockery and Walker. The choose to use the bucdks to overpay a player like Kelsay rather than instead use the bucks to try to keep whose market value was set due to him repeatedly being named a Pro Bowler by a combo of peers, fans and coaches. Here in the real world there is a clear recogniton that even an undesirable burg like Buffalo can attract a legen in his own mind like Terrell Owens and even win a competition for a Pro Bowl talent like TKO. These signings of players still active is totally counter to the theory you lay out. Your theory actually ignores the reason why we are doomed which is that the guys in charge from owner on down are businessmen rather than sportsmen. Happening towns like Green Bay and even Indy until they ran out of gas have proven that the key to winning is not your town being desirable it is being football smart. My guess is that if the Rooneys had ended up with the Buffalo franchise instead of Mr. Ralph we would have the record of the Steelers. This town stuff even if true is merely an excuse to hide the real issue which is poor ownership. Spot on! People don't come to Buffalo because our personnel people don't go after the right talent. In the past, when we wanted talent, we got it. As mentioned, TKO, possibly the best talent in free agency that year came here. Bryce Paup, Sam Adams and don't forget, Bledsoe was a commodity at the time he came. The folks that badmouth the city aren't from the city, or left the city because it wasn't for them or, with some of the local press, feel they have a duty to raise some dust. Bias much. Remember, the windbag reporter who lives in NYC or LA and takes a shot at Buffalo likely was raised in NYC or left a town like Buffalo because they failed to appreciate what a city like Buffalo has to offer. In contrast, your average football talent is not raised in Manhatten or has a desire to live there. Rather, they grew up in a midwest farming community or small southern city or small Pennsylvania town. Sure, there will always be a few prima donna types like McGahee that want to live in NYC like the windbag reporter, but for most, a city like Buffalo is ideal. I mean really, even the guys we've lost to free agency and early retirement didn't leave Buffalo for the lights of Times Square. Shoebel retires to his small town in Texas, Wolford goes to Indiana to raise horses, Pat and Antoine go to the even colder environment in Minnesota. More recently, Whitner is happy staying here or going to Cincy and only ends up in SF because of the money. Poz goes to Jacksonville.
dpberr Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I don't think it's the weather, the city or the fans. Or even necessarily the players. It's the agents and their relationship or lack thereof with the Bills brass. The Bills don't have to convince players, they've got to sell the agents on Buffalo as a destination. A lot of that agent/front office interaction is based on building and reinforcing personal relationships. We as fans tend to think all this free agent stuff is based on statistics and dollars. You'd probably be surprised that much more of it is based on the face to face interaction between agent and "bean counter" and the relationships forged between the two over meetings, lunches, etc.
1B4IDie Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I am not sure what planet you live on but the issues you point out probably do not get covered much because the situation is understood by just about anyone with even half a brain. Even the Bills official brass talks about these issues but uses buzzphrases like small market town and really seem to be most interested in the phenomena as a mechanism for prying an extra dollar out of the large market teams. Actually, I look at the reality of the line you are laying out merely as a cover story covering up the real thing which dooms the Bills which is that they repeatedly make lousy football decisions. They tend not to attract hiqh quality FAs not because they would rather go to happening towns like statisticslly even more empoverished cities like Cleveland or Detroit but because our team owner and beancounters like Littman repeatedly make bad football judgments. Here in the real world the problem is not that Mr. Ralph is always cheap as some like to pretend, its that the choose to open up the vault to get players like Dockery and Walker. The choose to use the bucdks to overpay a player like Kelsay rather than instead use the bucks to try to keep whose market value was set due to him repeatedly being named a Pro Bowler by a combo of peers, fans and coaches. Here in the real world there is a clear recogniton that even an undesirable burg like Buffalo can attract a legen in his own mind like Terrell Owens and even win a competition for a Pro Bowl talent like TKO. These signings of players still active is totally counter to the theory you lay out. Your theory actually ignores the reason why we are doomed which is that the guys in charge from owner on down are businessmen rather than sportsmen. Happening towns like Green Bay and even Indy until they ran out of gas have proven that the key to winning is not your town being desirable it is being football smart. My guess is that if the Rooneys had ended up with the Buffalo franchise instead of Mr. Ralph we would have the record of the Steelers. This town stuff even if true is merely an excuse to hide the real issue which is poor ownership. Listen to the Nix Presser! Bucky was drilling these questions during the presser and Nix was candid. He said, "Yes it is harder to recruit herer than say San Diego, . . . but when people get here they are impressed and don't want to go." He also said, to summarize, winning will cure this. If we build a winner through the draft, there won't be a problem recruiting people that want to win. Seriously very impressed with how open and honest Nix was, on a bunch of touchy subjects. Not a lot of Spin, just straight to the point answers. I agree. Why would a Free Agent want to go to Buffalo in 2010? It doesn't matter if Buffalo were San Diego. The team was a mess and a loser. When the team starts winning and has a strong FO that looks like they will continue to put their team in a place to win and pay their players than FA will come no problem. And the people that don't want to come to a proven winner because of the weather are the people that you probably don't want on your team in the first place. Edited January 10, 2012 by Why So Serious?
RealityCheck Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Wow, someone in the local press actually wrote an article and said what many many fans, especially those that no longer live in WNY, believe.. that people just don't want to go there, all things (money, other opportunities) being equal. Wow, never thought I'd see someone with the guts to write it. The Bills are doomed in WNY. The best players, coaches and managers want no part of it when similar opportunities exist in one of the other 31 franchises. Winning cures everything, but it is a chicken and egg problem. Bills will not win again because they cannot get the talent to come, if the talent does not come, they cannot win. Talent won't come, because Ralph won't overpay for it, which I can respect. So there it is. It really is unfortunate. Bad ownership/stewardship of the organization is at the heart of the problem. If Ralph would have allowed the football people to run the show people would be talking about the finer aspects of WNY that do in fact remain.
jcbillsfan Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 If you win they will come. There was a time when players didnt want to come to the yankees. The famous maddux , bonds offseason. So the yankees over payed for some players and waited for their youth to develop and the rest is history. Buddy said he would be willing to overpay if he had to. Playing for an 11-5 buffalo team is more inticing then playing for a lot of 6-10 teams if you win they will come
apuszczalowski Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Spot on! People don't come to Buffalo because our personnel people don't go after the right talent. In the past, when we wanted talent, we got it. As mentioned, TKO, possibly the best talent in free agency that year came here. Bryce Paup, Sam Adams and don't forget, Bledsoe was a commodity at the time he came. Except that Bledsoe came here in a trade from NE Just changing the owner isn't going to magically turn things around and make this a top destination for FA's to want to come and sign with. It is true, players don't look at Buffalo as an attractive destination to come play in, it doesn't have a reputation of being a "Big City". The younger players want to play in areas with a nightlife, they want somewhere that has clubs and places to party. It takes players alot of convincing most of the time to want to come here. Being a mediocre team definitly doesn't help when there are other options for similar money Just look at the Sabres this offseason. Their new owner had to fly out and come close to begging players to sign in Buffalo. They flew out to Calgary to convince Regher to waive his NTC, and they had to have players try and convince Ehrhoff to come and be grossly overpaid here in Buffalo. Green Bay and Indy don't seem to have this problem, but that can be because they are teams playing at the top of their divisions, with great QBs carrying the team (Manning, Favre and now Rogers) giving players the chance to win every year. But if you look, neither of those teams have been big spenders in FA and typically sign mid to lower level FA's and build their team through the draft. Detroit and Clevland seem to be 2 teams similar to Buffalo when it comes to peoples views of the actual cities, except that they are both much larger, and with bigger corporate bases located there.
bowery4 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I kind of think the Bucky thing was sort of something Jerry Sullivan would pen, to be honest. We have to make good personnel moves regardless of the handicaps, I think they have done a decent job of doing that in the last 2 years. The age of the owner and what will happen when he passes has got to be an issue, to be sure as well. I think it is okay but a slow process to build the team the way they have to right now. They will do better when the wins out number the losses but spending extra will help.
Peter Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 The fact that the team is in Buffalo is NOT the reason we have not won in a decade. That is just idiotic.
apuszczalowski Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I kind of think the Bucky thing was sort of something Jerry Sullivan would pen, to be honest. We have to make good personnel moves regardless of the handicaps, I think they have done a decent job of doing that in the last 2 years. The age of the owner and what will happen when he passes has got to be an issue, to be sure as well. I think it is okay but a slow process to build the team the way they have to right now. They will do better when the wins out number the losses but spending extra will help. I really wonder how much having an older owner with constant rumors of the team moving after his death, have players not wanting to come here? I can understand a veteran player with a family and other similar options available migh thave this as a concern because they would rather not uproot the family and move them more then once. But for young players, with no family, or maybe just a wife, I really wonder if its a concern? I would say the younger, single players are more concerned about the city and nightlife more then if the team may eventually relocate The fact that the team is in Buffalo is NOT the reason we have not won in a decade. That is just idiotic. No one is saying that it is the reason, just saying it can be a huge part in why they have trouble recruiting bigger FA's to play here. The biggest FA signing this decade was TO for the Bills, and he came here because he was desperate for a team to take a chance and sign him so he could show he can still play
T master Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I disagree if the state could get rid of the political thoughts of how to run a state & bring back businesses to Buffalo I think it wouldn't be that bad . The Queen City was once a great place to be !! But the state has had a such a screwed up bunch of politicians in place for such a long time they have ruined the region & thought that by raising taxes that was the way to make the state flourish !! How's that working ? WNY is one of the only states or should i say regions that the population is going down in instead of growing & if the Gov't doesn't get their head out of their ass & figure out what they have been doing wrong your right that part of the country will lose the Bills & a whole lot more !! I left in 85' because there was no work & still have family & friends there & i greatly miss the area B/C it will always be home & will ALWAYS be a Bills fan , but the only way i can see me coming back is if they wipe the NYS gov't clean & get some people in there that know what the region really needs & that will keep the Bills there too !! I personally know people that have moved to NY to collect welfare that tells me a ton about NYS gov't & until that mentality is gone i think a future for the Bills may be in for one heck of a fight but if any place can do it WNY can !!! Go Bills & Go WNY !!!!!! Here's to Hope !!!! 0:)
The Avenger Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 The reasons players don't come to Buffalo are many, but they seem to be a perfect storm when factored together. In case you haven't noticed, players don't come to Buffalo - they end up here. Think TO came to Buffalo because he wanted to? How about Merriman? No - each of those big name players came because they didn't have other choices - nobody else made TO an offer and Merriman was claimed off waivers. They guys who come here willingly are the lower tier or middle of the road guys that manage to get bigger contract here than they could elsewhere, and that's only when the front office feels the need to spend some money - Walker, Dockery, Brad Smith. The reasons people don't come to Buffalo (in order of how they rank in importance): 1 - Lack of competitiveness - Buffalo is not a good team - haven't been one in ages. Your chance of a championship here are just about nill right now. There is very little forward momentum in getting better, and we play in a division where all of our opponents are committed to winning and spending - they have better teams and better budgets. Think we'll beat NE for a division title anytime soon? Heck, even when Brady was out for a season we still finished last and went 0-2 against them. Even when NE falls from dominance it probably won't be Buffalo knocking them from the top and taking their place. 2 - Pay - Buffalo does not sign bigtime players to bigtime contracts - name me one top free agent with plenty of options who came to Buffalo because they got the best payday - you can't because it hasn't happened 3 - Bad football decisions - OK, so you aren't as effective in luring free agents as you want - there's still the draft, right? When you blow pick after pick (guys who HAVE to come here) on busts (Maybin, Leodis, Hardy, Troup, etc.) you don't build any forward momentum towards building a competitive program - see f#1 above. Throw in some poor coaching decisions and you end up with coaches more committed to a scheme than the personnel they have to run it - guys don't play up to their potential. Ever wonder why some guys have a career rebirth once they move on to another organization? 4 - City/weather - I love Buffalo - wish I still lived there. People are absolutely the best. Cost of living is affordable. Has a small town community feel without being a small town. There are things to do. Great place to raise a family - glad I was raised there. BUT - Buffalo is not a top rate city. It's not NYC, Washington, Dallas, San Diego or even Minneapolis. If you're a young man in his 20s living the life of a well paid athlete, are you really excited to be in Buffalo? Not much for bright lights and nightlife. If you want to live your life like a rap music video Buffalo ain't the place. Oh, and if you played ball at Miami, Clemson, LSU, USC, etc. I hope you like a stiff breeze off the lake and some lake effect snow when its 15 degrees - that's a special bonus (did I mention the stadium in NOT a dome?). I know the same things can be said for Green Bay - but they are competitive (see reason #1 above). Buffalo desperately needs to become more competitive, but to do that they can only control so much. The 2 things they can control to help get them out of this rut are pay and better football decisions, 2 things in which the Bills have failed continually over the past decade.Until that changes we'll continue to get a repeat of the same old same old year in and year out - we'll win a few games but in the grand scheme of the NFL we are completely irrelevant.
Rubes Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I kind of think the Bucky thing was sort of something Jerry Sullivan would pen, to be honest. It's funny, I was thinking the same thing. As I read it, I was wondering when Bucky became so jaded and negative, and then I thought to myself that maybe he's positioning himself to take over for Jerry if he decides to retire or move on.
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