Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2012 Author Posted January 6, 2012 This is exactly, 100% correct. It is a well-know fact among the league (denied only by a handful of die-hards on this Board) that the Bills do not want to pay premium dollars for personnel. They just won't do it. The Peters situation was just another tired example of this. It should come as no surprise to anyone when Stevie J walks this offseason. They won't pay the going rate, and they'll find plenty of excuses to appease their fans when those players leave for greener pastures. My reading on it is not necessarily that the Bills do not want to pay premium dollars for personnel. They are not letting it rain with dollars they spend on players like Pacman in a strip bar, but they will spend the money often enough. Lower half of the league? Maybe. The problem to me is that have little idea what players are worth. I blame that on Overdorf and Littman, because they are not football guys. They often underpay (Fred Jackson) or won't pay (Jason Peters), and they almost as often overpay, like (Kelsay, Langston Walker, Dockery, Evans even though he was good). Sometimes they luck out and get it right, like the recent Kyle Williams extension which seemed right. But they are terrible at knowing what players are worth and then offering that amount.
PromoTheRobot Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) How much better would the Bills O-line be with Peters, considering the NFL ranks us #1? BTW the Eagles rank #11. PTR Edited January 6, 2012 by PromoTheRobot
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 Teams win with stud star players. Every sport. Every year. Period. You need a few of them in football, at almost any position, and when you get them it's important if not essential to keep them, with some but few exceptions. FWIW, I'm quite surprised a serious football fan and good poster like yourself would use a team stat like 7-9 was the best the Bills did with him on the team as if that is significant. It's really foolish, IMO. Up until this year, Patrick Willis wasn't any good, huh? Up until this year, Calvin Johnson wasn't any good, huh? Demarcus Ware used to be good, but now he isn't. Look where he got the Cowboys? Same with Nick Mangold. I agreeto a certain extent. But a few questions for you: 1) Do you think the Bills should have craved for Peters? Especially after they just handed him a new contract 2 years ago? Trust me, I'm 100% on board with players getting every cent they can. But there are ways to do it. If Fred Jackson doesn't get paid, I will crucify the Bills because he handled his business the right way. Peters pouted, didn't answer phone calls, and put his teammates' health at risk. That sets a bad precedent. 2) If both Bell and Wood stayed healthy, I would make that trade for Peters (who has struggled to stay healthy himself). Peters is a better LT tackle that Bell, but Bell is a very solid LT when healthy. Wood can be a pro bowl center if healthy. 3) You are oversimplify things by selecting certain players. IMO, certain positions make more of a difference than others. A stud MLB like Willis would have made a huge difference on our team and could have won us some more games. In today's game, a stud wr like Johnson makes more of a difference than ever. He probably could have gotten a huge catch to secure a win that Jones wasn't capable of. And we all know what a pass rusher like Ware would have done for this team. IMO, LTs don't win games and Peters would have had little if any impact on our record. Joe Thomas and Jake Long are the 2 best LTs and play for losing teams. Matt Ryan isn't as good of a QB as Long is a LT but because QBs make such a huge difference was a better pick #1 overall. Additionally, the pining for Peters just seems ill timed (though it makes for a good dicussion). We jsut gave up the fewest sacks in the NFL and averaged over 5 ypc carry. I know no one likes to give our oline any credit at all, but that's pretty good. So in short, Jason Peters would made little impact on this team while taking up a lot of cap space. He is a good LT but good LTs don't mean as much as a stud QB, MLB, or pass rusher. I'm sure Eagles' fans are celebrating their All Pro LT. Good dicussion though and happy Friday.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2012 Author Posted January 6, 2012 How much better would the Bills O-line be with Peters, considering the NFL ranks us #1? BTW the Eagles rank #11. PTR If you want to go on believing that the OL is great in pass protection because they give the QB two seconds to throw instead of three-four like actual good OLs do, please continue, because it makes it very easy to shoot your posts down as foolish.
Best Player Available Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 How much better would the Bills O-line be with Peters, considering the NFL ranks us #1? BTW the Eagles rank #11. PTR In rushing. BTW, why does the #1 O-line only afford a quarterback 2 seconds tops on pass plays??? Hence the simplistic and very defensible spread offense. Hmmmmmmmmm, spin that one.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 This is exactly, 100% correct. It is a well-know fact among the league (denied only by a handful of die-hards on this Board) that the Bills do not want to pay premium dollars for personnel. They just won't do it. The Peters situation was just another tired example of this. It should come as no surprise to anyone when Stevie J walks this offseason. They won't pay the going rate, and they'll find plenty of excuses to appease their fans when those players leave for greener pastures. So when guys like Fitz, Evans, Dockery, Kelsay, etc get paid big bucks, the Bills are stupid and incompetent. Yet, they let some players walk, they are cheap. Bills fans talk out of both sides of their mouth. You can say the Bills make terrible personnel decisions and you are mainly right. But to say they are cheap is just lazy.
dpberr Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 I don't think Nix would have made that trade. That's the good news. That being said, I don't think a true evaluation of a trade can be conclusive until the playing careers of the trade pieces have ended. There is nothing that says Peters only plays one more year and Wood goes on to a 17 year career with numerous Pro Bowls. In that case, you would say the Bills fleeced the Eagles.
Coach Tuesday Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 My reading on it is not necessarily that the Bills do not want to pay premium dollars for personnel. They are not letting it rain with dollars they spend on players like Pacman in a strip bar, but they will spend the money often enough. Lower half of the league? Maybe. The problem to me is that have little idea what players are worth. I blame that on Overdorf and Littman, because they are not football guys. They often underpay (Fred Jackson) or won't pay (Jason Peters), and they almost as often overpay, like (Kelsay, Langston Walker, Dockery, Evans even though he was good). Sometimes they luck out and get it right, like the recent Kyle Williams extension which seemed right. But they are terrible at knowing what players are worth and then offering that amount. Do they ever overpay for coaches? Facilities? Scouting staff? In the situations you're referring to where they've "overpaid," they seem to cut or trade those players pretty quickly, so they don't actually end up ballooning their personnel costs. I agree with you that they can't evlauate their own roster, but I'm convinced they aren't willing to make the investment necessary to compete long-term.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 In rushing. BTW, why does the #1 O-line only afford a quarterback 2 seconds tops on pass plays??? Hence the simplistic and very defensible spread offense. Hmmmmmmmmm, spin that one. good point. Fitz is Dan Marino reborn and both our rbs are Barry Sanders. Trust me, I know our oline isn't perfect. But it's just sad that some fans can't give them any credit. It's a good, young group that played really well this year despite a ton of injuries. Why is it so hard to give them credit?
Coach Tuesday Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 I don't think Nix would have made that trade. That's the good news. That being said, I don't think a true evaluation of a trade can be conclusive until the playing careers of the trade pieces have ended. There is nothing that says Peters only plays one more year and Wood goes on to a 17 year career with numerous Pro Bowls. In that case, you would say the Bills fleeced the Eagles. The bad news is that Nix would't have made the Evans trade, either...
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 I don't think Nix would have made that trade. That's the good news. That being said, I don't think a true evaluation of a trade can be conclusive until the playing careers of the trade pieces have ended. There is nothing that says Peters only plays one more year and Wood goes on to a 17 year career with numerous Pro Bowls. In that case, you would say the Bills fleeced the Eagles. Again, I'm all for players getting paid. But I'm not for teams getting bullied by players and agents. The Bengals got pushed around by Palmer, told him to f off, and made the playoffs. So I don't get crying about a LT on a 8-8 football team that we beat.
PDaDdy Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 I liked Peters and I'm always in favor of players getting as much as they can get. However, he handled his contract situation like a complete douche. He showed up out of shape at the start of the season and put other players' health as risk. While he got his fat butt in shape and rotated in and out of the lineup, the Bills started 4-0. The Bills' best record when PEters was a starter was 7-9. Even in his all pro season this year, the Eagles went 8-8 and lost to the Bills. Peters won't have made one difference in the Bills' W-L record. And if both players could stay healthy, I'd take a Bell and Wood for Peters trade anyday of the week. LT is the most overrated position in the NFL. Let's turn the page. It's been 4 years now. WRONG!!! What a loser attitude. We screwed up not Peters. Maybe you are a big enough wuss to get a promotion with twice the responsibility and continue to work at your old salary for 2 years but most people have balls and want to get paid when they get promoted. This is professional football. Any job other than professional sports you can leave your job tomorrow and go make 3 times your salary somewhere else if someone is willing to pay it to you and you are worth it. Because of contracts which owners can tear up and void at any moment a player's only recourse is to hold out. That's the nature of the game and the business. Quit acting like a little girl and whining about it. Buffalo's front office didn't handle things well. Peters was using the only strategy available to him other than working for relative peanuts for years. What a joke.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 The bad news is that Nix would't have made the Evans trade, either... As one of the biggest Evans fans around and someone who hated the deal at first, you have to be the biggest Bills hater to crush that deal after the "season" Evans just had.
Best Player Available Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) good point. Fitz is Dan Marino reborn and both our rbs are Barry Sanders. Trust me, I know our oline isn't perfect. But it's just sad that some fans can't give them any credit. It's a good, young group that played really well this year despite a ton of injuries. Why is it so hard to give them credit? Oh, I am giving them credit. In fact the O-line coach should get a BIG raise for what he has done. Fact is maybe just maybe an All Pro Left tackle could have improved our pass protection to let something more than a short slant develop. That;s my point. Hairston is a potentially very good right tackle. Pears is backup IMO. So we need a stud left tackle IMO. Edited January 6, 2012 by Best Player Available
Doc Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 I agreeto a certain extent. But a few questions for you: 1) Do you think the Bills should have craved for Peters? Especially after they just handed him a new contract 2 years ago? Trust me, I'm 100% on board with players getting every cent they can. But there are ways to do it. If Fred Jackson doesn't get paid, I will crucify the Bills because he handled his business the right way. Peters pouted, didn't answer phone calls, and put his teammates' health at risk. That sets a bad precedent. 2) If both Bell and Wood stayed healthy, I would make that trade for Peters (who has struggled to stay healthy himself). Peters is a better LT tackle that Bell, but Bell is a very solid LT when healthy. Wood can be a pro bowl center if healthy. 3) You are oversimplify things by selecting certain players. IMO, certain positions make more of a difference than others. A stud MLB like Willis would have made a huge difference on our team and could have won us some more games. In today's game, a stud wr like Johnson makes more of a difference than ever. He probably could have gotten a huge catch to secure a win that Jones wasn't capable of. And we all know what a pass rusher like Ware would have done for this team. IMO, LTs don't win games and Peters would have had little if any impact on our record. Joe Thomas and Jake Long are the 2 best LTs and play for losing teams. Matt Ryan isn't as good of a QB as Long is a LT but because QBs make such a huge difference was a better pick #1 overall. Additionally, the pining for Peters just seems ill timed (though it makes for a good dicussion). We jsut gave up the fewest sacks in the NFL and averaged over 5 ypc carry. I know no one likes to give our oline any credit at all, but that's pretty good. So in short, Jason Peters would made little impact on this team while taking up a lot of cap space. He is a good LT but good LTs don't mean as much as a stud QB, MLB, or pass rusher. I'm sure Eagles' fans are celebrating their All Pro LT. Good dicussion though and happy Friday. Bingo. The reality is that Peters' presence isn't the determining factor between a winning or a losing season. The Eagles made the playoffs without him, did with him, and this year missed them with him. The Bills missed the playoffs with him and without him. And at $10M/year, his salary would limit what the Bills do at other positions. In rushing. BTW, why does the #1 O-line only afford a quarterback 2 seconds tops on pass plays??? Hence the simplistic and very defensible spread offense. Hmmmmmmmmm, spin that one. Had FJ not gone down, the Bills would have equalled or surpassed the Eagles in rushing. And as I asked above, how much time were Eagles QB's afforded?
Coach Tuesday Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 So when guys like Fitz, Evans, Dockery, Kelsay, etc get paid big bucks, the Bills are stupid and incompetent. Yet, they let some players walk, they are cheap. Bills fans talk out of both sides of their mouth. You can say the Bills make terrible personnel decisions and you are mainly right. But to say they are cheap is just lazy. Evans and Dockery got jettisoned well before their contracts were up. You can be sure that the same thing will happen to Fitz and Kelsay. To IGNORE that the Bills are cheap is to hide your head in the sand like an ostrich, but by all means, keep it up. It's your hard-earned dollars.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) WRONG!!! What a loser attitude. We screwed up not Peters. Maybe you are a big enough wuss to get a promotion with twice the responsibility and continue to work at your old salary for 2 years but most people have balls and want to get paid when they get promoted. This is professional football. Any job other than professional sports you can leave your job tomorrow and go make 3 times your salary somewhere else if someone is willing to pay it to you and you are worth it. Because of contracts which owners can tear up and void at any moment a player's only recourse is to hold out. That's the nature of the game and the business. Quit acting like a little girl and whining about it. Buffalo's front office didn't handle things well. Peters was using the only strategy available to him other than working for relative peanuts for years. What a joke. You don't a effing thing about me, so don't pretend you do. Keep crying about a LT on an 8-8 football team who played for the Bills 4 years ago. I'm going to enjoy my weekend. Edited January 6, 2012 by C.Biscuit97
Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2012 Author Posted January 6, 2012 I agreeto a certain extent. But a few questions for you: 1) Do you think the Bills should have craved for Peters? Especially after they just handed him a new contract 2 years ago? Trust me, I'm 100% on board with players getting every cent they can. But there are ways to do it. If Fred Jackson doesn't get paid, I will crucify the Bills because he handled his business the right way. Peters pouted, didn't answer phone calls, and put his teammates' health at risk. That sets a bad precedent. 2) If both Bell and Wood stayed healthy, I would make that trade for Peters (who has struggled to stay healthy himself). Peters is a better LT tackle that Bell, but Bell is a very solid LT when healthy. Wood can be a pro bowl center if healthy. 3) You are oversimplify things by selecting certain players. IMO, certain positions make more of a difference than others. A stud MLB like Willis would have made a huge difference on our team and could have won us some more games. In today's game, a stud wr like Johnson makes more of a difference than ever. He probably could have gotten a huge catch to secure a win that Jones wasn't capable of. And we all know what a pass rusher like Ware would have done for this team. IMO, LTs don't win games and Peters would have had little if any impact on our record. Joe Thomas and Jake Long are the 2 best LTs and play for losing teams. Matt Ryan isn't as good of a QB as Long is a LT but because QBs make such a huge difference was a better pick #1 overall. Additionally, the pining for Peters just seems ill timed (though it makes for a good dicussion). We jsut gave up the fewest sacks in the NFL and averaged over 5 ypc carry. I know no one likes to give our oline any credit at all, but that's pretty good. So in short, Jason Peters would made little impact on this team while taking up a lot of cap space. He is a good LT but good LTs don't mean as much as a stud QB, MLB, or pass rusher. I'm sure Eagles' fans are celebrating their All Pro LT. Good dicussion though and happy Friday. 1] Yes. I do think the Bills should have paid him just under 10 million and he would have happily taken it. Often it is unwise to keep renegotiating contracts, and yes they did give him a new one two years earlier. So what? There are a lot of times when it is important to rip up contracts and pay players when they have far exceeded the previous one. We should have already done the same thing with Fred Jackson. Each situation is different. It would have have set some precedent on the team, which could have easily said, okay, any of your guys who twice exceed your contract by huge margins and becomes the best in the league at your position get to renegotiate. 2] I would not make that trade. No. I like Wood a lot. I would much prefer to keep Peters and draft or sign a solid C in Free Agency. 3] Studs at any position are enormous help to your team. It is no coincidence that LT is what, the second or third highest paying position in football? ALL of these owners and GMs and coaches are wrong about their worth?
Coach Tuesday Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) As one of the biggest Evans fans around and someone who hated the deal at first, you have to be the biggest Bills hater to crush that deal after the "season" Evans just had. So just like the Eagles' record is a reflection of Peters, Evans' unforseen injury is a reflection of the trade. You're really grasping bud... Edited January 6, 2012 by Coach Tuesday
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 Oh, I am giving them credit. In fact the O-line coach should get a BIG raise for what he has done. Fact is maybe just maybe an All Pro Left tackle could have improved our pass protection to let something more than a short slant develop. That;s my point. Hairston is a potentially very good right tackle. Pears is backup IMO. So we need a stud left tackle IMO. Bell is good when healthy. The impact Peters would have had on this oline is minimal at best.
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