Give Chan 6 years

[Andre Speed]

i'll give him 7-10, no possibility of parole.

 

he could die be4 that ?

 

ok then Chanster, i sentence u to LIFE !

 

with Marylou (or other partner of preference)

 

~K.Rogers

[CosmicBills]

I still follow the KISS rule.......there is one aspect of this team that if it was turned into a strength would make this team look so different

 

THE DEFENSE

 

- It affects the offense in that if we were playing with a lead....Chan would run it more. The defense would literally save Chan from himself who looks for the excuse to go into a spread formation on 3rd and short.......it creates its own points.....creates good field position.....changes the play calling of the other team...changes the play calling of OUR team.....

 

Just fix that side of the ball......and everything will fall into place. Anybody else noticing that when we get defensive stops we generally have control of the game? It is when we start giving up points that the team goes in the toilet.

But John, you're missing the bigger picture. Yes, if the defense was better this year, this team wins 8 games rather than 6. If the defense was tremendously better they win 9 or 10. But look at what the Bills have done in the past 15 years. They've always been stronger on one side of the ball over the other. At first it was the defense was strong but the offense sucked. Then, the front office attempts to remedy that by savaging the working side of the ball in favor of the weaker.

 

The point is, the Bills front office won't let the Bills build a team capable of winning. They don't build complete teams, they build half a team. Just enough to get fans in the seats only to rip our hearts out later. Whether that's intentional or due to ineptitude is for the conspiracy theorists to argue about. For me, the longest playoff drought in the NFL is enough proof to show that something is seriously broken.

[thewildrabbit]

The thing I think that most fans just don't get is, when you have a 6-10 team its usually pretty much devoid of top talent or bad coaches, or both.

 

For Buddy Nix & Chan Gaileys first draft they came away with virtually not one solid starter to hit the field in 2010. For the 2011 draft only Marcel Darius the #3 overall started every game from the beginning of the year and not because of an injury to another player. All the star players on this team were already here (yet Jauron / Levy killed this franchise) Fitz, Fred jackson, Stevie Johnson, George Wilson, Kyle Williams, Eric Wood, Andy Levitre, etc etc etc.

 

Then you could say there are two areas in which the team was, and still is desperate for upgrades at DE / OLB for the pass rush and LT, RT, back up C for the O line. these areas were basically ignored in the draft, save for Hairston who drafted in the 4th round is usually a project.

 

If these two men reinforce the pass rush and O line the team wins more then 4 games in 2010, and they win more then 6 games in 2011 !!

 

The world knew the O line and pass rush were weak areas since they traded away Jason Peters(5x pro bowler) in 08 and since Arron Schobel was injured in 08, So both Jauron and his band of clowns couldn't get it done. Now Nix/ gailey have had two years and they haven't gotten it done either.

 

What really bother me is Nix knew he needed an upgrade at O tackle that is the reason he went after Atlanta OT Tyson Clybo AFTER the draft, and yet failed to secure him or any other player to help that line. He also cut his back up C in Geoff Hangartner in preseason. That player went on to start for Carolina and would have helped this team immensely this year. He also went into the season counting on an injury prone OLB he picked off the waiver wire, there was a reason the Chargers canned the guy. Nix is taking gambles when he should be solidifying the weakest areas with top players.

 

Tell me, what HC- GM doesn't understand that a bad O line and no pass rush is going to kill a team? Everyone is so full of love for this GM / HC, isn't that nice:P.

 

I'm not, I'm still scratching my head trying to understand how these two highly paid professionals got it wrong for two straight years now, and the fans love them for it...perplexing to say the least.

[CosmicBills]

I suspect someone does not know the definition of "abysmal."

 

 

 

So if 6-10 is abysmal, what is 2-14 or 0-16? When you say abysmal, tgreg, you suggest something that is at the very bottom of the barrel. Outside of interceptions, the Bills are not at rock bottom by any statistical measure.

 

Your critique of the front office is entirely subjective and inaccurate. Buddy Nix did not retire. That is an unsubstantiated rumor, so you are wrong right off the bat. The fact that he never had the job before is meaningless because the majority of GMs in the NFL are first-timers.

 

Your statement that the Bills have done little to improve the talent on the roster is also subjective and inaccurate. Nix added players like Scott Chandler, Eric Pears, Nick Barnett, Marcel Dareus, Aaron Williams, Kelvin Sheppard, and Justin Rogers. Would you describe these players as abysmal?

 

I could write much more, and I will when I have time. Right now I have a client project that has to go out by FedEx and my deadline is 6pm. But I already noted several major offensive categories that the Bills improved in dramatically that you chose to ignore. And while you and your fellow members of the Panty Wad Guild throw ill-informed opinions around as facts, I like to stick with measurables.

 

P.S...I love how you say the the stats I cited were "barely above-average" and that you stick to your abysmal description. Well, barely above average is still above average, and being above average means you are not abysmal!

 

PTR

Longest playoff drought in the NFL.

 

That's the definition of abysmal. The ONLY thing that matters is winning championships. That's the goal of every team in the league at the start of the season. This franchise has yet to win one super bowl and has failed to even make the playoffs for 12 seasons (soon to be 13).

 

The Bills have added players but let other players go. Dareus is a stud. The only true stud they've added to the roster in 2 years since Nix has gotten here. One player. Prior to him, you could put Kyle Williams up there and Fred Jackson. Neither of which came from Nix. And even then, it's only a total of 3 stud players the Bills have managed to find in close to 7 years. That's HORRENDOUS.

 

They've let other players go for next to nothing (or sometimes for nothing), stripping the team of depth which, some would say, is more important than having 3 stud players added to the roster in 7 years. 3 players mean nothing if you surround them with cast offs and garbage players (which is what this roster has in abundance).

 

The linebacker corps has been one of the worst in the league for at least 5 seasons. It was again this year as well. Barnett was a nice addition, Shep might develop into a player. But outside of those two, there's been no serious effort to bring in LBs that are anything more than camp fodder. The OL has more turnover than Lindsey Lohan's sheets, and they still can't get it right. QB has been a revolving door of the wrong pieces. The WRs are terrible. The CBs are now just as bad as the WRs.

 

Also Nix was retired before he came to the Bills. That was the point I was making, it has nothing to do with the rumors of him retiring now. I hope he does retire now. Good riddence, the guy is a joke. Like this team.

 

If you're satisfied with meaningless statistics (of which we're barely in the middle of the pack in the ones you're lauding and near the bottom in all the others), that's fine. Most people seem to be. That's your right as a fan.

 

Me? I want to see this team compete. This team has not been a legitimate contender for anything in over 15 years and there is absolutely no sign of things changing any time soon. They still don't have a QB. They don't have a WR. They don't have a pass rush. They don't have a secondary worth a damn outside of Byrd, Wilson and (maybe) Williams. Justin Rogers is unproven. McKelvin is unreliable. McGee is done. Florance is terrible. Bell and Harriston are backups at best at LT. There's no depth whatsoever at ANY position on this team.

 

So even if the Bills have the perfect off season, there's not enough time, draft picks, or FA to fix this roster by the start of the season. And we're about to be in year 3 of a rebuild that is looking like it's going to take at least 5 to turn any results. That's terrible.

[BillsfaninFl]

I respect that challenge

 

1. Win Loss Record. The ONLY thing that matters. Since 2000, the Bills are 76-116. Over Chan's first 2 seasons, the record is even worse (10-22). As much of a trainwreck as Jauron was (and he was), the Bills have been worse than they were with DJ. Of course, that was to be expected due to the sheer lack of talent left on the roster when DJ left town. No one expected an overnight fix. But things haven't gotten better. They've at BEST stayed the same (we've improved on offense yet regressed on defense). At worse they've imploded. The second half of the season for the Bills showed how little talent they have on their roster (less depth than ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE NFL), and how flawed the team actually is.

 

2. Front office: The front office is out of touch with regards to what it takes to win in the NFL. They've got a retired GM who had never had the job before in Nix and has done very little to improve the amount of talent on the roster. Now, with a change of D coordinators, it seems likely that some of, if not most, of the Defensive players drafted by Nix will now have to adapt to a new system in which they're not a fit. The poor drafting continues, there's no depth at all on the roster despite having an excess of 30 million to spend. The front office's constant revolving door at positions of need (CB, RB, QB, WR, OL) is a cycle that shows no sign of stopping under Nix's regime.

 

3. Pass Rush: Simply the worst in the NFL. Bar none. There isn't a player on the roster that strikes fear into opponents' hearts. Maybe Dareus will get there, he's been a stud. But there isn't a single pass rusher on the roster. Merriman was done before he stepped on the field, and reaching for him and not adding any other talent in this area ties in to the utter ineptitude of the front office.

 

4. OL: You say sacks are down and they were. That wasn't due to the talent of the OL. It was due to the absolute lack of a downfield passing attack. It's hard to get sacks when your QB is throwing short routes. Give Fitz credit for a quick release, but the offensive gameplan of dink and dunk was designed to mask the OL's inability to pass block for more than 2 seconds. Pears, Harriston and Bell were average to below average when they had to block for longer than 2 seconds. No backup center on the roster, no backup guards and very limited talent at the OT position has doomed this team.

 

5. QB: Fitz is average at best. He has shown nothing to give anyone confidence he can deliver when it counts. He continues to come up small when it counts the most. Hurt or not, he showed absolutely no ability to throw deep and stretch a defense. Some of that can be blamed on the utter lack of talent at WR position, but most of it falls on Fitz's incapable shoulders. The fact that the organization continues to scramble for a franchise QB after 12 years of searching is terrible. The fact this team has never taken a QB with their first pick is even worse. It's a passing league. Hard to win in a league like that when you can't pass.

 

6. WRs: There isn't a single number 1 WR on the roster and hasn't been since Moulds left. That's a problem. Stevie is a number 2. Nelson is a solid 3. The rest of the WR corps would have a hard time making any other NFL roster let alone their starting rotation. There is an absolute lack of talent in the WR corps. Combine that with a weak QB and a subpar OL and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

7. Coaching: Chan's in game decisions have been suspect. The defense's inability to adjust was not just due to lack of talent, it was due to poor coaching and schemes. Changing from Edwards to Wanny won't be as big of a score as most on here believe. Mainly because he doesn't have the players to implement the scheme he's most familiar with. But also, if he is as good as some on here said, then he also has to bear some of the responsibility for the abortion that was on the field this year since he was the asst head coach.

 

I could go on ... The bottom line is that this all starts up top. Ralph, either due to ego or design, has created a culture at OBD that prevents them from winning. They constantly turn over the roster, not allowing any continuity to grow. They invest money in the wrong players and trim the budget at the expense of depth in a sport where you're only as good as your weakest link.

 

The Bills are in bad shape. And after 12 years of futility, and 51 years of losing as a franchise, there's little reason to believe that's gonna change without a massive upheaval in the front office. Meaning Ralph himself.

 

 

 

So ... they're just barely above average in every stat you're lauding (but for sacks given up which is more a mirage than a real stat). And they're well below average in the stats that count: wins.

 

Yeah, I stand by abysmal.

 

You win the debate.

[Dorkington]

With how he's done so far, I don't think Chan *deserves* the job anymore.

 

But I do agree with the notion that stability is required, and bringing in a new head coach right now is foolish. I'll give him a year or more, hell maybe six, whatever. What's the worst that can happen? We're already one of the worst teams in the league.

[CosmicBills]

With how he's done so far, I don't think Chan *deserves* the job anymore.

 

But I do agree with the notion that stability is required, and bringing in a new head coach right now is foolish. I'll give him a year or more, hell maybe six, whatever. What's the worst that can happen? We're already one of the worst teams in the league.

As critical as I am about this franchise -- firing Chan right now is not the answer. I actually like the guy as a fan (he cracks me up), and I think he's got a good offensive mind on his shoulders. I think he gets lost in games occasionally, is too loyal to poor players and coaches (but that's excusable since he doesn't make personnel decisions in the end), but overall he's good enough for this team right now.

 

This team isn't going to win in '12 without a serious overhaul in talent during Free Agency and the draft. But a third year with Chan and the scheme gives them a better shot of winning with less talent than they would have if they turned it over again.

 

Let Chan ride this out until Ralph kicks it. It's the best chance the Bills have to luck their way into a playoff season in the next few years.

[Dorkington]

I agree tgreg.

 

I think improving our talent pool is much more important right now. We many starting position gaps, and just about every depth position needs to be retooled as well. The best coach in the world couldn't make this team ready for the playoffs imo.

[CodeMonkey]

With how he's done so far, I don't think Chan *deserves* the job anymore.

 

But I do agree with the notion that stability is required, and bringing in a new head coach right now is foolish. I'll give him a year or more, hell maybe six, whatever. What's the worst that can happen? We're already one of the worst teams in the league.

3 or more years averaging 5 wins a season like his first 2 years.

The Bills are between a rock and a hard place here. Not only does getting a new HC probably do more harm than good now, they would be very hard pressed to get anyone better who would accept the job.

 

Just another year in the life of a Bills fan I guess.

Edited January 7, 2012 by CodeMonkey

[thewildrabbit]

3 or more years averaging 5 wins a season like his first 2 years.

The Bills are between a rock and a hard place here. Not only does getting a new HC probably do more harm than good now, they would be very hard pressed to get anyone better who would accept the job.

 

Just another year in the life of a Bills fan I guess.

Gailey is more then good enough to remain the HC, he has done a fine job at managing the game, which is exactly what the HC's primary job is.

 

 

As much as I think both Nix and Gailey screwed the pooch on player personnel the last two years, Gailey screwed it even worse with his choice of assistants, he finally fixed the Edwards situation after two years.

 

Now he needs to fix the OC situation, he needs someone not so pass happy calling the plays, someone to setup a more balanced attack.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Okay, from 2009 to 2011...

 

Points per game: from 16.1 (28th) to 23.2 (14th)

Sacks given up: from 46 (28th) to 23 (1st!!!)

Rushing yards: 1867 (16th) to 1961 (13th)

Passing yards: 2515 (30th) to 3703 (15th)

Touchdowns: 25 (29th) to 43 (11th)

There's your "abysmal" team. Any more questions?

 

PTR

 

Why, yes. You've correctly cited several statistics showing modest improvement (from abysmal to mediocre) on offense. Your original statement was "The Bills have improved in almost every area."

 

There are three phases of the game - offense, defense, and special teams. There is also the bottom line - W-L record.

Are you conceding that the Bills have improved only modestly on offense, while showing no improvement or regressing on defense, special teams, and in W-L record?

Or have you additional evidence to offer outside modest improvement on offense to justify the "almost every area" statement?

 

By the way, I don't believe I used the word "abysmal", so the phrase "there's your abysmal team" might give the impression of trying to introduce a straw-man into the discussion as being directed at the poster you're responding to (me).

I'm sure that wasn't your intent, so I thought I'd just drop you a hint that something like "there's the team some have referred to as abysmal" would avoid that little pitfall.

 

PS you forgot the offensive improvement between 2009 and 2011 from 19 to 25 INTs . Can you tell us the ranking change there?

[Mango]

i never get the " we need to make the playoffs next year or he is fired" line of thinking. i know i will get a ton of response that take teams like SF or cinci and count them as the rule. The AFC is significantly deeper than the NFC, our division makes it tough. This year 3 teams came from the AFC North. If Peyton returns and with a healthy Houston, that changes everything in the South. We have a team with a record of a decade of awful drafts and trades. we haven't had a record at or above 500 in who knows how long. I would be happy with finishing the season playing similar to the way we started it, competitive with EVERYBODY. That means we drop some of those close games, which means we may even go 8-8. I am happy with improvement and a 500 record or better. That is a better track than what we have been on in a decade, and to be honest there is nobody out there proven to be better who would be willing to accept that job.

[PromoTheRobot]

Why, yes. You've correctly cited several statistics showing modest improvement (from abysmal to mediocre) on offense. Your original statement was "The Bills have improved in almost every area."

 

There are three phases of the game - offense, defense, and special teams. There is also the bottom line - W-L record.

Are you conceding that the Bills have improved only modestly on offense, while showing no improvement or regressing on defense, special teams, and in W-L record?

Or have you additional evidence to offer outside modest improvement on offense to justify the "almost every area" statement?

 

By the way, I don't believe I used the word "abysmal", so the phrase "there's your abysmal team" might give the impression of trying to introduce a straw-man into the discussion as being directed at the poster you're responding to (me).

I'm sure that wasn't your intent, so I thought I'd just drop you a hint that something like "there's the team some have referred to as abysmal" would avoid that little pitfall.

 

PS you forgot the offensive improvement between 2009 and 2011 from 19 to 25 INTs . Can you tell us the ranking change there?

Abysmal was the word tgreg chose to use. I was speaking to him there. I'm weird that when I hear a word, I take it for what it means. Call me old school. The Bills are not Super Bowl contenders. They are not playoff contenders. But they are not the festering gob of schitt that the word abysmal implies.

 

And the Bills did improve in two years. Maybe not enough to make some people happy but going from the bottom to the middle is improvement. As long as the Bills are improving then I'm all for staying the course.

 

By the way I did refer to the top ranking in INT's. Read my posts again. I'm not running away from the bad stuff.

 

PTR

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I suspect someone does not know the definition of "abysmal."

 

So if 6-10 is abysmal, what is 2-14 or 0-16? When you say abysmal, tgreg, you suggest something that is at the very bottom of the barrel. Outside of interceptions, the Bills are not at rock bottom by any statistical measure.

 

PTR

 

Let me help you out here:

 

NFL Defensive Statistics

 

I would define "bottom five in the league" as "rock bottom", myself.

[PromoTheRobot]

Longest playoff drought in the NFL.

 

That's the definition of abysmal. The ONLY thing that matters is winning championships. That's the goal of every team in the league at the start of the season. This franchise has yet to win one super bowl and has failed to even make the playoffs for 12 seasons (soon to be 13).

 

0-16 for 12 years straight would be abysmal. UB football can be described as abysmal. The Bills have been mediocre, I think, because we have been starting from scratch every 3 years. As for championships being the only thing that matters, I guess then the NFL has 31 abysmal teams every year.

 

Let me help you out here:

 

NFL Defensive Statistics

 

I would define "bottom five in the league" as "rock bottom", myself.

I don't disagree. Our defense is awful. But if you recall you challenged me to show a list of where the Bills improved and I believe I met that challenge. You didn't ask me for a list of how we suck.

 

PTR

Edited January 7, 2012 by PromoTheRobot

[#34fan]

We should get a legitimate OC in order to get a more accurate view of Chan's head coaching ability. I personally think he's awful, but that's because of his awful playcalling. Maybe he's involved at a level he shouldn't be. Let's see how it goes next season with a dedicated OC. If we still suck, then fire them both.

[opfball91]

I think Wannstedt as a D coordinator is going to change things a lot. The Bills had games this year where, based on scheme alone, they took away the other teams ability to move the ball. Then we had blowout games, that's not so much a lack of talent as it is poor coaching, though we do lack talent in certain areas. Lotta rookies this year, no Kyle Williams, our pro bowler, and George Edwards, didn't help things at all. I think we'll be middle of the pack next year in defense rankings, top ten in offense if we stay healthy and keep Stevie. Keep Chan, he's miles ahead of any Jauron, Mularkey, or Williams. At least Chan proves he can out smart another coach, how often did you feel like we did that with any of those other guys? I like his attitude, I think its sustainable for players to stay dedicated to him, of course it all comes down to winning, but Chan is a no BS kind of guy and I think most players will respect that. If we miss the playoffs the next two years, I think you have to can him, but as of now he can stay and I think he will improve.

[BillsVet]

From 6-10 to 4-12 and back to 6-10 again in their last three seasons. Higher standards are in order and losing 9 or more games 7 seasons in a row is unacceptable.

 

Nice job tgreg.

[Toshiero]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/10spot-wildcard/impatient-owners-allow-coaches-develop--adam-schefter-10-spot

 

I agree with Schef coaches need more time to build for the long term. Give your coach a chance.

 

Bull ****. No one else needed it. Ron Rivera took on a rookie QB and in his first year really wasn't worse than Buffalo and in many aspects better. It is pure bull ****

[silvermike]

I'm not sure where it's written that a new coaching staff means a four-year turnaround. It took Gregg Williams two years to get to 8-8; Mike Mularkey turned a 9-7 season out in his first year, and even Jauron came out of the gate at 7-9. Chan's got the worst two-year record of any of our previous rebuilds, which had to muddle through a season with JP Losman or Rob Johnson starting at QB. Of 2011's first year coaches, Chan started slower than all but Leslie Frazier; Mike Munchak, John Fox, Hue Jackson, Ron Rivera, and Jim Harbaugh came out of the gate quicker than 4-12, and Pat Shurmur matched that. This is a slow rebuild. Maybe our roster was in such poor shape that it's necessary to take the slow road. I'll be patient with Chan, because he has shown the right flashes. But I don't think we need to resign ourselves to the idea that changing coaches means three seasons in the gutter.

 

You obviously don't want to fire Tom Landry after four seasons, as Schefter is arguing, but you also don't want to spend eight seasons waiting for a winning season from Bruce Coslett. I'd wager that the majority of coaches fired after three seasons never go on to anything, and you don't want to throw good money after bad because "constant turnover" isn't worse than inferior coaching.