Polian to Buffalo?

[zazie]

Polian brings a winning pedigree and we need that. He should be an immediate hire if he would agree to come.

 

He had 10+ great years in Indy and had now set them up for another 10+ great years by getting them into the position to draft Luck

[first_and_ten]

But he's the boss, the guy who owns the franchise. Meddling is his prerogative.

 

 

 

You can call the boss an idiot and be pleasant about it. Can I justify his firing. Yes I can. Ralph Wilson, the owner, said so.

Can I justify that this franchise has sucked for so long? Yes I can. Ralph Wilson is the owner.

[Clippers of Nfl]

I feel that the Colts were built on a few very good players, and a supporting cast that wasn't all that great. They peaked two years ago. Last year they were in the playoffs but were significantly less dominant. Obviously it can't be proven, but even with Peyton I would have predicted them to be a middle of the pack team this year.

 

I feel that they spent big money on QB and pass rushers, and could no longer afford the rest of the supporting players. When their better receivers left, they fell apart. Their O-line is also getting old. Was this Polian's master plan, to put together a few key pieces and make a run, and then have it fall apart because it can't be sustained?

 

I never viewed the Colts to be a "dynasty" like the Patriots, Steelers, Packers, and a few other teams that seem to be perennial playoff teams. Those teams are able to get by with some of the pieces missing better than the Colts, even with Peyton in the game. I know Bills fans will immediately say that they would gladly have a house of cards that gets into the playoffs and even into the Superbowl once, and maybe that is the right approach in this parity league.

 

Actually, the Colts provide a good recipe for success: get a great QB, a few very good receivers, a very good O-line and some very good pass rushers. Almost the opposite of the Bills at this point.

indy had a bad year because the best qb of all time imo was out. but they are a dynasty. they are always in the playoffs and can beat any team any time. unlike the bills. you can count on big time teams beating us with usually a zero chance of beating them. like us playing the packers this year. that's almost a 99.9% loss for the bills. but peyton and his colts playing the packers can go either way. that's what you think about a dynasty team.

 

funny that you mention the patriots. where were they in the 90's???? they sure as hell were not a dynasty back then.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Clippers of Nfl

[Ted William's frozen head]

Polian might've won more championships in Indy if P-Gump didn't fold so many times in the post-season.... yet he wouldn't have won as many regular season games without P-Gump either. Tough situation for him to be in all those years, I guess he was right to go for as many wins as possible with one miracle in 2006.

That's funny. I've been referring to Manning as "Forest Gump" for years....

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think it's weird how those who would like Polian brought back for the most part have completely ignored the points made by those who feel it would be a bad idea:

 

1) Living off his reputation

2) Dubious record of success inflated by Manning

3) Semi-retired for the last several years (he's 69 years old)

4) Nepotism involving his gravy-training son

5) Inability to get along with co-workers, the media, the fans

6) Exodus of scouts from the organization due to his autocratic style

 

I only hear two arguments for Polian:

 

1) His record of success (which doesn't hold up well under the microscope)

2) It doesn't matter if he can work with others

 

I'm gonna stick with the people who think that a hypothetical Polian return would be a very bad idea.

 

BTW, the Raiders and Rams were both looking for a GM… neither team was interested in Polian.

 

I could debate this statement all day but will not go there. I must say you surprised me with it.

 

My vote is to stick with Whaley rather than return to the past. Polian and Wilson cannot exist together anyway, and that does not put Polian in the minority.

 

However, I will always argue that Polian is one of the all time great GMs based on this:

 

1. Record with the Bills - building a winning dynasty with Ralph Wilson as your boss. A feat that has never been accomplished before or since.

2. Involvement with numerous NFL league and rules comittees - highly respected by peers.

3. Working for Tagliabue - key involvment with setting up free agency and salary cap to help keep compettive balance in the league

4. Lauching the Carolina franchise to instant sucess

5. Reviving the moribund Colts and winning a SB.

 

This crap about inheriting Jim Kelly and Payton Manning is a ridciulous arguement. Name a great coach or GM that did not have a great QB? You can't do it. Why single Polian out for that?

 

Hypothtically speaking, if I became an owner of a NFL team Polian would be at the top of my interview list.

 

The following is a small part of what I mean when I say that Polian's "record of success doesn't hold up well under a microscope."

In Buffalo, Polian didn't draft Kelly nor did he draft Bruce Smith (Terry Bledsoe did) but to Polian's credit, he signed both men… FWIW. He did a great job of building the Super Bowl teams taking full advantage of a time before free agency and at a time when the NFL draft was 12 rounds, not the present 7 rounds. He made some great picks, hired Marv Levy, and did an overall excellent job.

 

I believe that Polian did his best work in Buffalo and this is the bedrock of his reputation.

 

In Carolina, Polian had numerous advantages:

 

1) Polian worked for an owner, Jerry Richardson who was a former NFL player and who was committed to winning. The Panthers spared no expense at their inception.

2) Polian worked for a Team President, Mike McCormack who was a former All-Pro NFL player, successful coach and general manager.

 

In other words, the "organizational expertise" in Carolina was very high. It was a similar situation to when Craig Patrick, Scotty Bowman, and Bob Johnson all worked for the Pittsburgh Penguins.

 

IMO, Polian has to share the credit with Richardson and McCormack, both of whom are lifetime NFL football guys.

 

Another huge advantage Polian had was that he and his Jacksonville counterpart, Michael Huyghue had the benefit of an unprecedented expansion draft… the 1995 Expansion Draft.

 

In this first ever expansion draft, both Carolina and Jacksonville were able to stock their rosters with unprotected players from the league's other 30 teams. These two teams had first dibs on all these players and both teams stocked their rosters this way. The Panthers ended up getting 35 veteran players on their roster via the expansion draft. No superstars but a lot of solid NFL veterans.

 

On top of this, the Carolina Panthers were awarded the first pick in the 1995 NFL Draft and one of the two top picks in every round. They traded their first pick to Cincinnati and received the Bengals 1st and 2nd rounders in return.

 

The Panthers also received several supplemental picks in the draft although they forfeited two of them (61 and 191) for improperly recruiting Head Coach Dom Capers. I seem to remember that Richardson was quite angry at Polian about this incident.

 

So Polian's success in Carolina was due to a confluence of very favorable circumstances. In his 3 years in Carolina, the Panthers went 7-9, 12-4, and 7-9.

 

Their expansion counterparts, the Jacksonville Jaguars went 4-12, 7-9, and 11-5 in the same three years. Then Jacksonville went 11-5 and 14-2 the following two years while the team that Polian built dropped to 4-12 and then 8-8.

 

In Indy, Polian did draft Manning so I certainly give him credit for getting that 50/50 proposition correct. Unlike some of his contemporaries at the time, Polian actually spoke with people in Pullman, Washington so he knew not to touch Ryan Leaf with a ten foot pole… guys who stiff their bar tabs all over town usually don't have good character and/or have a drinking problem. In this case Polian and his scouts did their due diligence on Leaf at a time before teams ran exhaustive background checks. His drafting of Dwight Freeney was also an excellent pick. Many football guys considered Freeney too short to be successful. Polian also spent a high rounder on Bob Sanders who had a short but outstanding career.

 

Many people feel that with a quarterback like Peyton Manning, that Polian should have been able to put a better supporting cast around him and win more than one Super Bowl. His drafts in Indy were seldom excellent. He picked some winners and some losers but the one constant was Peyton Manning and Dwight Freeney… and to a lesser extent Marvin Harrison and later, Reggie Wayne. IMO, the success of the Colts was basically built on a small handful of players, as opposed to those great Buffalo teams.

Edited January 7, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Best Player Available]

I am surprised that Brandon has not hired him, just to sell tickets as they did with T.O.

When Polian and Isray hired his kid, I seem to remember Bill saying he was getting too old for the job.

The rift between Ralph and Polian probably is too deep. Ralph also wouldn't allow however sub-standard this 'rebuild is

to have Polian rip it down and start again. Which he would want to do. Whaley is up next and hopefully sooner than later.

 

Besides what does have Polian have left to prove to anyone? He will need to get fitted for a jacket, and get ready for a bust

of his head in a few years.

[Bob in STL]

The following is a small part of what I mean when I say that Polian's "record of success doesn't hold up well under a microscope."

In Buffalo, Polian didn't draft Kelly nor did he draft Bruce Smith (Terry Bledsoe did) but to Polian's credit, he signed both men… FWIW. He did a great job of building the Super Bowl teams taking full advantage of a time before free agency and at a time when the NFL draft was 12 rounds, not the present 7 rounds. He made some great picks, hired Marv Levy, and did an overall excellent job.

 

I believe that Polian did his best work in Buffalo and this is the bedrock of his reputation.

 

In Carolina, Polian had numerous advantages:

 

1) Polian worked for an owner, Jerry Richardson who was a former NFL player and who was committed to winning. The Panthers spared no expense at their inception.

2) Polian worked for a Team President, Mike McCormack who was a former All-Pro NFL player, successful coach and general manager.

 

In other words, the "organizational expertise" in Carolina was very high. It was a similar situation to when Craig Patrick, Scotty Bowman, and Bob Johnson all worked for the Pittsburgh Penguins.

 

IMO, Polian has to share the credit with Richardson and McCormack, both of whom are lifetime NFL football guys.

 

Another huge advantage Polian had was that he and his Jacksonville counterpart, Michael Huyghue had the benefit of an unprecedented expansion draft… the 1995 Expansion Draft.

 

In this first ever expansion draft, both Carolina and Jacksonville were able to stock their rosters with unprotected players from the league's other 30 teams. These two teams had first dibs on all these players and both teams stocked their rosters this way. The Panthers ended up getting 35 veteran players on their roster via the expansion draft. No superstars but a lot of solid NFL veterans.

 

On top of this, the Carolina Panthers were awarded the first pick in the 1995 NFL Draft and one of the two top picks in every round. They traded their first pick to Cincinnati and received the Bengals 1st and 2nd rounders in return.

 

The Panthers also received several supplemental picks in the draft although they forfeited two of them (61 and 191) for improperly recruiting Head Coach Dom Capers. I seem to remember that Richardson was quite angry at Polian about this incident.

 

So Polian's success in Carolina was due to a confluence of very favorable circumstances. In his 3 years in Carolina, the Panthers went 7-9, 12-4, and 7-9.

 

Their expansion counterparts, the Jacksonville Jaguars went 4-12, 7-9, and 11-5 in the same three years. Then Jacksonville went 11-5 and 14-2 the following two years while the team that Polian built dropped to 4-12 and then 8-8.

 

In Indy, Polian did draft Manning so I certainly give him credit for getting that 50/50 proposition correct. Unlike some of his contemporaries at the time, Polian actually spoke with people in Pullman, Washington so he knew not to touch Ryan Leaf with a ten foot pole… guys who stiff their bar tabs all over town usually don't have good character and/or have a drinking problem. In this case Polian and his scouts did their due diligence on Leaf at a time before teams ran exhaustive background checks. His drafting of Dwight Freeney was also an excellent pick. Many football guys considered Freeney too short to be successful. Polian also spent a high rounder on Bob Sanders who had a short but outstanding career.

 

Many people feel that with a quarterback like Peyton Manning, that Polian should have been able to put a better supporting cast around him and win more than one Super Bowl. His drafts in Indy were seldom excellent. He picked some winners and some losers but the one constant was Peyton Manning and Dwight Freeney… and to a lesser extent Marvin Harrison and later, Reggie Wayne. IMO, the success of the Colts was basically built on a small handful of players, as opposed to those great Buffalo teams.

 

I think you look for reasons to discount his accomplishments but I credit your detailed arguement. Definitely some valid points.

 

Unfortunately none of your points changes a thing for me. In fact it shows me he adapted to each specific situation correctly. You reminded me of the great job he did with Plan B free agency, bringing in Kenny Davis and John Davis.

 

I do not think Kelly ever signs with Buffalo without Polian. Also, I did think he drafted Bruce.

 

In closing, does he get your vote for Hall of Fame?

Edited January 7, 2012 by Bob in STL

[jjmac]

He built a winner that fell apart when one person was lost? So is Polian the only one accountable for the season? What about the coaches and the players? Where was Indy when he got there? Do you erase the past ten years of winning? Sounds a bit short sighted to me.

 

Last person you want here? Really? Come on. He has been in the league for a long time and his track record is outstanding. He is clearly one of the best GMs in the history of the NFL and he will be in Canton someday. Just not good enough for you though?

 

Get on his bad side and he will not respect you. So be it. Does he rub some people the wrong way. Yes. So do lots of other people in this sport and in this world for that matter.

 

Meanwhile we can maintain or status as NFL bottom feeders but at least we have a humorous nice guy running the team that is always nice to his boss and never questions the status quo.

 

His track record is outstanding? 6 Super Bowls, but only 1 victory. Would Indy have the #1 pick if Manning had played this year? Take him out, and they are done.

 

Can I justify why this franchise has sucked for so long? Yes I can. Ralp Wilson is the owner.

 

 

Were you saying that during our last playoff run? Was Ralph dropping passes, missing tackles, and kicking wide right?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think you look for reasons to discount his accomplishments but I credit your detailed arguement. Definitely some valid points.

 

Unfortunately none of your points changes a thing for me. In fact it shows me he adapted to each specific situation correctly. You reminded me of the great job he did with Plan B free agency, bringing in Kenny Davis and John Davis.

 

I do not think Kelly ever signs with Buffalo without Polian. Also, I did think he drafted Bruce.

 

In closing, does he get your vote for Hall of Fame?

I think he gets in but he doesn't get my vote.

 

I feel he did a great job in Buffalo and an alright job in Carolina and Indy.

 

Personally I feel he's a bit overrated.

 

 

[Bob in STL]

I think he gets in but he doesn't get my vote.

 

I feel he did a great job in Buffalo and an alright job in Carolina and Indy.

 

Personally I feel he's a bit overrated.

 

 

Ok. Thanks.

 

He might be the only GM in history to take a long time loser like the colts to a super bowl win and then be deemed to do an 'alright job'.

 

cheers!

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Ok. Thanks.

 

He might be the only GM in history to take a long time loser like the colts to a super bowl win and then be deemed to do an 'alright job'.

 

cheers!

I guess the question in my mind is how many GMs had they been in Indy and had the "foresight" to draft Peyton Manning would have also won a Super Bowl… or more than one.

 

Also of course, how many GMs wouldn't have made the playoffs even with Manning.

 

How much credit does Polian get for winning "only" one Super Bowl with Manning?

 

Of course a Super Bowl victory is something that any organization should be proud of but that's not the discussion here.

 

Did Polian build a solid, quality team that could win with a much-lesser quarterback like the Patsies* did with Matt Cassel?

 

Besides Manning's passing and some good pass rushers, were the Polian/Manning Colts really that great of a roster compared to other Super Bowl winners?

 

I guess I've never been impressed with the construction of the Colts roster the way I have with most of the other Super Bowl winners.

 

And to nitpick Polian a bit more (maybe I'm not being fair) I think it would really behoove him to retire at this point.

 

He's nearly 70 and his reputation is secure.

 

His boy will have to make his own way.

 

 

[K-9]

... I do not think Kelly ever signs with Buffalo without Polian. Also, I did think he drafted Bruce. ...

 

In closing, does he get your vote for Hall of Fame?

 

Polian gets my vote for the HOF. He's what, a 6 time Exec. of the Year? He deserves it.

 

As to Kelly, I'll give Polian credit but Jimbo's options were limited relative to pro football at that juncture. It was the Bills or the CFL. IIRC, the Bills held his NFL rights in perpetuity. After playing in the USFL, it wasn't as though he could wait a year and then re-enter the draft. At least that's how I remember somebody explaining it a long time ago.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited January 8, 2012 by K-9

[Adam]

His track record is outstanding? 6 Super Bowls, but only 1 victory. Would Indy have the #1 pick if Manning had played this year? Take him out, and they are done.

 

 

 

 

Were you saying that during our last playoff run? Was Ralph dropping passes, missing tackles, and kicking wide right?

The defense won Indy that superbowl. Yes, having the second best team in the league six times counts for something.

 

I would like to see film of Mr. Wilson dropping passes

[BADOLBILZ]

The defense won Indy that superbowl. Yes, having the second best team in the league six times counts for something.

 

I would like to see film of Mr. Wilson dropping passes

 

I think the Colts had the worst rush defense in the league that year. That is a huge indicator because if teams can run on you at will, they won't bother passing. Granted, they played better and held serve at home in the playoffs and stopped the immortal Rex Grossman in the bowl but I think it's safe to say that they wouldn't have even been in the playoffs with anything but a dominant offense.

[Adam]

I think the Colts had the worst rush defense in the league that year. That is a huge indicator because if teams can run on you at will, they won't bother passing. Granted, they played better and held serve at home in the playoffs and stopped the immortal Rex Grossman in the bowl but I think it's safe to say that they wouldn't have even been in the playoffs with anything but a dominant offense.

Manning did not play exceptionally well in the postseason that year

[BRAWNDO]

Would the Bills have missed on so many draft choices over the past ten years if Polian had been in charge? Also how many fans on TBD would trade a Superbowl Win and multiple playoff appearances for what we have put up with over the past decade. All of these 7-9, 6-10 seasons have brought Marshawn Lynch and Aaron Maybin. The Colts 2-14 gets them Andrew Luck.

[nucci]

Would the Bills have missed on so many draft choices over the past ten years if Polian had been in charge? Also how many fans on TBD would trade a Superbowl Win and multiple playoff appearances for what we have put up with over the past decade. All of these 7-9, 6-10 seasons have brought Marshawn Lynch and Aaron Maybin. The Colts 2-14 gets them Andrew Luck.

I'm a fan of Polian but look at how many misses for the Colts drafts in the last few years. There are more problems than just missing Manning.

[IndyMark]

Wanting Polian in Buffalo is laughable.....yes, the Polian-ites will assign the Colts winning record over the last decade to him, yet Manning had a way more significant impact on their record then did Polian. To credit Polian as the sole reason for success is a bit myopic and dramatic.

 

Next, Polian-ites are conveniently forgetting that by bringing Polian back you also get his son.....which (by some pretty clued-in accounts) is almost a bigger reason why the Colts severed ties with Bill......it is emerging that Chris was not that well respected or thought of and coupled with Bill's overly thin and sensitive and insecure skin that the climate at Indy was unhealthy.

 

If Polian was that great, where was Mannings effective back up (ala Frank Reich)? Not to mention the weak recent draft history.......

 

While it is understandable some have fallen in love with Polian (and given the Bills pathetic record - it is easy to do), that does not mean Polian would be a cure all. Clearly without a doubt he is overrated; again, a teams record cannot be assigned to the GM. Case in point?....who is the GM in New Orleans or Detroit? Quick, anyone?...did not think so.......sure you can google, but that does not count.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

If Ralph fired him and didn't want him when he was younger and very successful why would he bring him back now that he is much older and coming off a 2-14 record? If I was an owner of any business and I fired a guy I can promise you I would never hire him back. I personally would love Polian to be our GM but that would make zero sense for Ralph to rehire him.

Ralph considerers any on under 70 too young and inexperienced so I would never expect lack of youth to be prohibitive. That said I can't see Polian ever working for Ralph or Ralph wanting him back. His buf firing was personal, the team was in the midst of consecutive superbowls.

[Adam]

Wanting Polian in Buffalo is laughable.....yes, the Polian-ites will assign the Colts winning record over the last decade to him, yet Manning had a way more significant impact on their record then did Polian. To credit Polian as the sole reason for success is a bit myopic and dramatic.

 

Next, Polian-ites are conveniently forgetting that by bringing Polian back you also get his son.....which (by some pretty clued-in accounts) is almost a bigger reason why the Colts severed ties with Bill......it is emerging that Chris was not that well respected or thought of and coupled with Bill's overly thin and sensitive and insecure skin that the climate at Indy was unhealthy.

 

If Polian was that great, where was Mannings effective back up (ala Frank Reich)? Not to mention the weak recent draft history.......

 

While it is understandable some have fallen in love with Polian (and given the Bills pathetic record - it is easy to do), that does not mean Polian would be a cure all. Clearly without a doubt he is overrated; again, a teams record cannot be assigned to the GM. Case in point?....who is the GM in New Orleans or Detroit? Quick, anyone?...did not think so.......sure you can google, but that does not count.

let me guess. Success can't be assigned to th gm but can be assigned to the qb and coach.....