GaryPinC Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 All he need to do now is hire a offensive Coordinator......you guys might hate me for this and I don't know what the Nfl and Ncaa has going on and I know its not going to happen But Jim tressel would be a great offensive coordinator Really? I always considered him Jauron-esque in that he seemed to play strong defense, conservative offense and if the score's close take one or two chances to put OSU on top. JMO though.
GaryPinC Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Don't you think switching from the Tampa-2 to a traditional 4-3 defense with the players we had signed would be a smaller change but still difficult and likely not make the team any better? Who exactly was going to be good on the Bills in a traditional 4-3 defense? If Nix traded for 4-3 DEs that were exactly as good as Dwan Edwards, and drafted DE and DT that were exactly as good as Terrell Troup and Carrington (and had back problems) and signed a former all-pro pass rushing 4-3 OLB that never really got healthy, and had all these injuries, and had a crappy 4-3 coach instead of a crappy 3-4 coach, do you think we would have been any better whatsoever? I don't. Thanks for all your points on a great discussion. I would like to add one subjective point from watching this team play this year. I think the overall defensive schemes were too complicated. Losing our veteran leadership, forcing guys out of their natural positions, and having too much marginal talent helped magnify the problem. Even though the defense could play ok in spots, what I realized really bothered me is the lack of situational awareness. I lost count of how many times the opposing RB ran right by one of our front seven who was looking the other way. Often there was no defensive flow to the ball. I think our guys were thinking too much or even unsure what they should be doing on certain plays. Don't get me wrong, we definitely need more talent with our LBs, but I think poor scheme had a significant impact on effectiveness. Hopefully Wanny can get the D on the same page and playing together, whatever scheme he decides on.
Mr. WEO Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) One thing I do like about Gailey is he isnt afriad to make a change Why did he make such a poor choice in the first place? Ummmm... because Wanny didn't create the defensive scheme, do the game plans, put the packages on the field, decide which players on the field and when, or call the defensive formations and signals? And he has proven before to be one of the better DC's in the league, which was why he was hired to be a HC two different times by successful franchises? And both franchises concluded that they were fooled by his apparent prowess as a DC. Edited January 3, 2012 by Mr. WEO
Kelly the Dog Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 And both franchises concluded that they were fooled by his apparent prowess as a DC. Ummmm, no. Both franchises made the mistake of thinking he was head coaching material. Big difference. There are a lot of guys who are excellent coordinators and average or lousy head coaches. There is a huge difference in the two jobs as you know. And he wasn't just a one or two year wonder, he was very good for a lot of years.
spartacus Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Lets assume that's the case. How well is the hybrid D working? Not well, obviously. They don't have the talent to run a 4-3 or a 3-4 effectively at this point, but they've been gearing their roster towards a 3-4, so they may as well continue and fill the gaping holes at OLB. If they do that, combined with another offseason of development for the guys they've drafted the last two years, they could very well turn out to be a decent defense next year. There's nothing inherently wrong with the 3-4. except that is would help immensely to have a coach with background in the 3-4 to run it. Taking a 4-3 guy and pretending he can run a 3-4 because he is already on staff is typical of the Bills business as usual at OBD
pimp on da' net Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks for all your points on a great discussion. I would like to add one subjective point from watching this team play this year. I think the overall defensive schemes were too complicated. Losing our veteran leadership, forcing guys out of their natural positions, and having too much marginal talent helped magnify the problem. Even though the defense could play ok in spots, what I realized really bothered me is the lack of situational awareness. I lost count of how many times the opposing RB ran right by one of our front seven who was looking the other way. Often there was no defensive flow to the ball. I think our guys were thinking too much or even unsure what they should be doing on certain plays. Don't get me wrong, we definitely need more talent with our LBs, but I think poor scheme had a significant impact on effectiveness. Hopefully Wanny can get the D on the same page and playing together, whatever scheme he decides on. I totally agree with you about his scheme & calls at pivotal moments in the game. Edwards was trying complicated schemes when the basics should have been re-inforced, IMO that would allow players to play more instinctive. I used to cringe everytime he'll rush 3 and drop 8 in coverage as if he could generate pressure upfront...the team also didn't have any exotic blitz packages to confuse opposing QB's when needed which totally fell on his situational awareness...the defense never seemed to establish an identity under his leadership. To bad cause he seems like a good guy just not NFL ready
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Don't you think switching from the Tampa-2 to a traditional 4-3 defense with the players we had signed would be a smaller change but still difficult and likely not make the team any better? Who exactly was going to be good on the Bills in a traditional 4-3 defense? If Nix traded for 4-3 DEs that were exactly as good as Dwan Edwards, and drafted DE and DT that were exactly as good as Terrell Troup and Carrington (and had back problems) and signed a former all-pro pass rushing 4-3 OLB that never really got healthy, and had all these injuries, and had a crappy 4-3 coach instead of a crappy 3-4 coach, do you think we would have been any better whatsoever? I don't. Sticking with a 4-3 1-gap defensive system would've been far simpler. It's what Fewell ran, so the players he and Jauron had coached up were already familiar with the scheme. Instead of having to replace (or move out of position), say, 9 starters from the word go, they could have replaced the underperformers first and (drum roll) built from depth. Transitioning from the too small Tampa-2 to a bigger 4-3 defense could've been accomplished a player or 3 at a time. As for the players, I think Dwan Edwards is undervalued here on this board, but I'm not sure I follow the question entirely. Stroud was physically done (though they asked him to move to the outside anyway -- player evaluation?), so Dwan (playing a different position of course) is frankly an upgrade. Williams and Kelsay still start then and now (though the aborted experiment to make Williams a 0-technique 2-gap nose never has to take place). Maybin may still be on the team if they stayed 4-3 and let him do the one thing he can do -- line up wide and loop around the tackle in a speed rush. They needed better LB play to improve the run defense and they still do. Of course, if the scheme is ineptly coached and no one knows what they are doing, then scheme is not the issue and talent may not be as big an issue as it might appear. Under Edwards, it was way too often where Bills players didn't know their assignments and stood there looking at one another while the other team executed plays unchallenged. If you have that sort of coaching going on, then success isn't possible. I agree with that.
Mr. WEO Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Ummmm, no. Both franchises made the mistake of thinking he was head coaching material. Big difference. There are a lot of guys who are excellent coordinators and average or lousy head coaches. There is a huge difference in the two jobs as you know. And he wasn't just a one or two year wonder, he was very good for a lot of years. He was DC in Dallas for four years on team loaded and coached by Jimmy Johnson. He was DC in Miami for a year. He was promoted to HC after JJ left. Maybe the awesome D of the Cowboys in their SB years was due to Wannstadt's coaching. Maybe it was the crazy talent they had.
pimp on da' net Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 What about Heard? I would put him ahead of everyone except Dareus and Williams Not a fan of Heard, he plays to high out of his stance (that's what I saw when he played the NT) maybe he's better suited for a 3 technique but we have Williams for that and Dareus when needed. IMO for Heard to stick he'll have to play the 5 and beat out Troupe for depth..plus he has mental lapses that will kill a team (he doesn't watch the ball which leads to off-sides)but it could've been 1st yr jitters.
bowery4 Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 I am happy they made the change, I hope DW keeps it fairly simple and has a different philosophy (which frankly IMO, is more important than scheme) than Edwards did. I thought they would do this and expected it but wasn't sure. (BTW this brings us one step closer to having Stash as HC ). Best of luck to George Edwards where ever you go now. My biggest concern is the hybrid seems very difficult to have the right personnel for as you need both OLBs and DEs who are decent to good. Not players who can do one or the other. Also I think Edwards only kept the right players and scheme on the field sometimes, he seemed to miss more often than not. The D front 7 and the Oline still need to keep building both in talent and depth. The person who brought up the simplicity thing is right, KISS and it will be better IMO. We also need Chan to go to run first, less readable offenses and this team might have a future (with these coaches and FO), I hope he adjusts and we get more talent in here to fit what they are building around. Go Bills!
pimp on da' net Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 You think shepard can handle solb? No. I have the SOLB position as a need in FA. I have Sheppard at MLB if Wanny plays a one gap technique up front...A free agent SOLB (ie, B. Ruud)should be cheaper for OBD than an impact rush DE. Git er done Buddy !!!
FluffHead Posted January 3, 2012 Author Posted January 3, 2012 No. I have the SOLB position as a need in FA. I have Sheppard at MLB if Wanny plays a one gap technique up front...A free agent SOLB (ie, B. Ruud)should be cheaper for OBD than an impact rush DE. Git er done Buddy !!! Barrett Ruud is small slow and turrble, no thanks, I would rather resign Kirk Morrison
billsfan in n.h Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 @ByTimGraham Hearing #Bills QB coach George Cortez's return in serious doubt. jim kelly QB coach??? hey george edwards; good luck in your future endevours
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 jim kelly QB coach??? hey george edwards; good luck in your future endevours No. But if Indy cans their coaching staff, both Frank Reich and Pete Metzelaars would be available.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks for all your points on a great discussion. I would like to add one subjective point from watching this team play this year. I think the overall defensive schemes were too complicated. Losing our veteran leadership, forcing guys out of their natural positions, and having too much marginal talent helped magnify the problem. Even though the defense could play ok in spots, what I realized really bothered me is the lack of situational awareness. I lost count of how many times the opposing RB ran right by one of our front seven who was looking the other way. Often there was no defensive flow to the ball. I think our guys were thinking too much or even unsure what they should be doing on certain plays. Don't get me wrong, we definitely need more talent with our LBs, but I think poor scheme had a significant impact on effectiveness. Hopefully Wanny can get the D on the same page and playing together, whatever scheme he decides on. I think these are really good points. Two supporting arguments: 1) when asked how the Texans improved so much on D, several players cited that Wade had "really simplified things". 2) In the Denver game, where the D carried the team to a win, it was commented that the defense had been simplified I think the hybrid scheme was extra-complicated for the guys to understand, and this was fatal with rookies added to guys playing out of their natural positions. I think you're spot-on that the guys are having to think too much, instead of just being able to react.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 jim kelly QB coach??? No Star players don't usually make great coaches, and nothing in Kelly suggests he yearns to throw heart and soul into making himself a good coach.
ganesh Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 except that is would help immensely to have a coach with background in the 3-4 to run it. Taking a 4-3 guy and pretending he can run a 3-4 because he is already on staff is typical of the Bills business as usual at OBD The Bills probably have concluded that with the talent they have in Williams and Dareus, they are better of running a traditional 4-3. May be Wannestedt runs a 4-3 rather than a 3-4.....Now the issue is to go and find two starting DEs and depth on the line. Kellen Heard has done himself good for the depth part...Now can they find two good DEs, one in the draft and another in FA? That will also reduce the impact on needing pass rushing OLBs.
KGUN34 Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Now we are cooking on gas!! IF... DW can get the right guys in Buffalo he will put out a decent defense at worst.Give the guy a quality DE and a rush outside backer and sit back and enyoy!!
Recommended Posts