KOKBILLS Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 JoeB_WGR Joe Buscaglia Gailey says they'll re-evaluate doing a 4-3 vs. the 3-4 in the offseason. #Bills I'm guessing the 4-3 is going to be back in Buffalo...Assuming KW is back at 100% health...I just think the 4-3 matches our personnel right now MUCH better as far as the front 7 is concerned (yes I know we'll still need OLB's)...Dareus should be an absolute beast as a 4-3 DT....
Brandon Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 You may have a point, but where are people lining up in the hybrid? How is that much different than a full-fledged 4-3? Lets assume that's the case. How well is the hybrid D working? Not well, obviously. They don't have the talent to run a 4-3 or a 3-4 effectively at this point, but they've been gearing their roster towards a 3-4, so they may as well continue and fill the gaping holes at OLB. If they do that, combined with another offseason of development for the guys they've drafted the last two years, they could very well turn out to be a decent defense next year. There's nothing inherently wrong with the 3-4.
Bob in STL Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 The move is not a surprise, lots of speculation the past few weeks. It happened fast out of respect for Edwards as it provides him more time to evaluate opportunities for his next gig. He was a young guy with limited NFL experience for a DC. He took a shot and it did not work out. I wish him the best.
NoSaint Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Lets assume that's the case. How well is the hybrid D working? Not well, obviously. They don't have the talent to run a 4-3 or a 3-4 effectively at this point, but they've been gearing their roster towards a 3-4, so they may as well continue and fill the gaping holes at OLB. If they do that, combined with another offseason of development for the guys they've drafted the last two years, they could very well turn out to be a decent defense next year. There's nothing inherently wrong with the 3-4. I also enjoy that in discussing scheme no one has insights to blitzing vs rushing the down men or zone vs man, where your blitzes might come from, gap assignments on the line.... Just 34 or 43 and since we have two good tackles we must run a 43.
BringMe Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 If we move back to the 4-3 I think it will be interesting to see where merriman plays. He is still under contract and I believe he can still play
Kelly the Dog Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) You may have a point, but where are people lining up in the hybrid? How is that much different than a full-fledged 4-3? If you draft for a 3-4 and get a beast OLB who can rush to passer to some extent, plus try to sign a starter or situational DE that can rush the passer a little, you go into the season with a 3-4 lineup of Williams-Dareus-FA or Edwards, backed by Barnett and Sheppard in the middle, and #1 pick on the outside, probably with Merriman or Kelsay. The backfield stays the same either way. If Williams is 100% and the rookie or FA signing is decent, we could expect them to be a middle of the road defense, maybe pretty good if Williams returns to form (he was never healthy), the rookie is decent to good, and Sheppard makes some strides. When they play 3-4, you have Kelsay-Williams-Dareus-FA or Spencer Johnson. The rookie OLB would likely be one outside with Barnett on the other. The MLB would be hard but it wouldn't be hard to find a veteran FA to play some snaps and try to teach Sheppard to play the position. One of the keys either way is if Sheppard makes a jump. He got no training camp and was hurt early so he never really had a chance but he has some talent. He didn't play well though when he was in, but I am giving him a pass for this year. He may have to show a lot more. With Williams and Merriman in there this year, one one leg (and Merriman with one shoulder too) we really were not that bad. Sure we gave up some yards but we made plays, had a lot of smarts, the other teams concentrated on Williams and Merriman like they should have and it allowed all of the other guys to take chances when available and they made plays. It was a makeshift D with a crappy coach and three rookies and terrible play by CBs but we were pretty good. I think people REALLY under-estimate the affect that gimpy Kyle and gimpy Shawne had on the defense even though they were not on the stat sheet. It's no surprise whatsoever the team and especially defense collapsed when they went out. Edited January 2, 2012 by Kelly the Dog
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Wanny's resume: 16 years in the pros, 8 top 10 defenses and 5 top 5 ones. http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/WannDa0.htm He may not be the best head coach ever (though he did take multiple teams to the playoffs and Pitt to a BCS bowl so he wasn't that bad). But he is a very good defensive coach. But I guess he's isn't a flashy hire. So you can do a million times worse than Wanny. I like Williams and Dareus better as 4-3 DTs anyways. IMO, since everyone runs the 3-4, running the 4-3 is an advantage in drafting (not as much competition for certain players) and teams having to prepare. My main concern will be him adjusting to the amount of spread offenses there are now. As for Edwards, I hoped for the best but he was over his head. The 4th down corner blitz against the Jets in the 2nd game sealed it for me. Best of luck to him. Maybe the Florida DC job is still open.
purple haze Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Bills should have never switched to the 3-4 in the first place. They need to stop chasing the next big thing. The move to the 3-4 is on Gailey although he had plenty of support from fans at the time. Nothing wrong with switching to the 34 defense at all. The 43 players they had weren't good enough. The defense needed upgrading and still does. Anyway, they have been playing a multiple front defense the entire season with a lot of 43 looks. It's not a big deal like folks are trying to make it out to be. It's not about the scheme. It's about the players. The Bills D stunk whatever front they played because they didn't have enough good players to pass rush. And if they don't get some players who can do that we will be here next season talking about Wanny should be fired. Edited January 2, 2012 by purple haze
San-O Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 So your solution is to go into 2012 in a 4-3? We would have no DEs unless you count Chris Kelsay, who is decent. We would have ZERO linebackers that can play the position. None. Barnett would be forced to play outside where he is not as good. Shep would get murdered if he played like he did this year, he had a lot of trouble shedding blocks and moving quickly to the ball at the LOS. You can't count on Merriman or Kelsay. You can draft a prototype pass rushing RDE, I hope. The Bills either can't coach the hybrid, or select players for it, or both. It's just not working, and it's been two years already. Also, I don't see how anyone can justify staying with a system that doesn't work when the personnel can't play it anyhow.
frogger Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 With the increase of teams using the 3-4, switching to the 4-3 makes sense. The RE needs to be addressed round one or two. Love the move, best of luck to Edwards.
VanCity Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Not a surprise, but still a positive move IMHO. I suspect 4-3 is the right move. We have ILB's that can play the MLB (Shepp and Barnett) and OLB's more suited to the DE (Kelsay, Carrington). Our NT's (Williams or Dareus) are both DT's and line-up better in a 4-3 front. We can now select Upshaw and complete that front 7 quite handily. The DB's were less of an issue than the pass rush was, so I don't see that being a first round need unless a true star (Claiborne or Kirkpatrick, who should and will both be gone 3 or 4 spots ahead of 10) is there. Would love to go with a top WR, but the needs on D still trump the needs on O. Edited January 2, 2012 by VanCity
MDH Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Nothing wrong with switching to the 34 defense at all. The 43 players they had weren't good enough. The defense needed upgrading and still does. Anyway, they have been playing a multiple front defense the entire season with a lot of 43 looks. It's not a big deal like folks are trying to make it out to be. It's not about the scheme. It's about the players. The Bills D stunk whatever front they played because they didn't have enough good players to pass rush. And if they don't get some players who can do that we will be here next season talking about Wanny should be fired. When the weakest part of your entire team - both in terms of starters and in depth - are your LBs, switching to the 3-4 isn't a wise move. Coaches shouldn't be looking for ways of getting more of your worst players on the field...
NoSaint Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Wanny's resume: 16 years in the pros, 8 top 10 defenses and 5 top 5 ones. http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/WannDa0.htm He may not be the best head coach ever (though he did take multiple teams to the playoffs and Pitt to a BCS bowl so he wasn't that bad). But he is a very good defensive coach. But I guess he's isn't a flashy hire. So you can do a million times worse than Wanny. I like Williams and Dareus better as 4-3 DTs anyways. IMO, since everyone runs the 3-4, running the 4-3 is an advantage in drafting (not as much competition for certain players) and teams having to prepare. My main concern will be him adjusting to the amount of spread offenses there are now. As for Edwards, I hoped for the best but he was over his head. The 4th down corner blitz against the Jets in the 2nd game sealed it for me. Best of luck to him. Maybe the Florida DC job is still open. More than rankings I still want to see some sort of scheme breakdown. I know he runs a 43 but his Dallas days predate a lot of my getting the real nuts and bolts of scheme in the NFL. What type of 43 is he known for? Anyone?
missthe kgun Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Good 1st move, shows we aren't gonna keep accepting rubbish. Chan can't be far behind (Off with his head). lol
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 More than rankings I still want to see some sort of scheme breakdown. I know he runs a 43 but his Dallas days predate a lot of my getting the real nuts and bolts of scheme in the NFL. What type of 43 is he known for? Anyone? Ask and you shall receive: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-7606072 http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2011/7/1/2251963/best-of-the-best-cowboys-defensive-schemes Johnson took over as the franchise's second head coach in 1989 and brought Dave Wannstedt with him from the University of Miami. Following in the tradition of his 'The U' defenses, Johnson molded the Cowboys defense on speed and quickness. Instead of being a read and react defense, all four lineman were charged with penetrating through the trench and getting into the offensive backfield. Notes on the 4-3 Over Defense: (from ezarticles.com) In the Over front, Weak End will align in a 5-technique, that is outside shoulder of the Offensive Tackle. The Strong End will align in a 9-technique, outside shade of the Tight End. The weak Defensive Tackle (we call him the Nose) aligns in a Weak Shade, or shaded weak on the Center. The strong Defensive Tackle will align in a strong 3-technique, outside shade of the Guard. In our base defense, these defenders are gap-responsible. The 3-technique handles B-gap strong, while the Nose takes A-gap weak. The ends are responsible for C gap weak and D gap strong. We do NOT use the Ends for contain! They are spill players in our aggressive style of defense.
hondo in seattle Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 If Wanny is such a defensive genius, then why didn't Edwards make better use of him and take his advice? If Edwards was utilizing Wanny's advice and experience, why should we expect anything better with Wanny as DC? If Wanny is qualified to run a D, why couldn't he do it through Edwards? (Remember, as Assistant Head Coach, Wanny outranked Edwards). I'm happy to see Edwards get replaced. His results over the past two years have been abysmal. It makes me wonder what Gailey saw in him to give him the gig in the first place. And I wish I knew more about the decision to understand why Gailey thinks Wanny will do better without Edwards around. One optimistic note: Wannstedt was out of the NFL for a while and had this year to reacquaint himself. Theoretically, he'll be more on top of current trends, schemes and personnel next year.
truth on hold Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 yeah, the disasterous move to 3-4 was all Edwards fault. Had nothing to do w/ Chans decision in the first place knowing we had 4-3 personel. So the answer is replacing him with a 4-3 defense coach? lol @ Chan the politician
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 If Wanny is such a defensive genius, then why didn't Edwards make better use of him and take his advice? If Edwards was utilizing Wanny's advice and experience, why should we expect anything better with Wanny as DC? If Wanny is qualified to run a D, why couldn't he do it through Edwards? (Remember, as Assistant Head Coach, Wanny outranked Edwards). I'm happy to see Edwards get replaced. His results over the past two years have been abysmal. It makes me wonder what Gailey saw in him to give him the gig in the first place. And I wish I knew more about the decision to understand why Gailey thinks Wanny will do better without Edwards around. One optimistic note: Wannstedt was out of the NFL for a while and had this year to reacquaint himself. Theoretically, he'll be more on top of current trends, schemes and personnel next year. Hard to really answer these questions for sure but I think it was a very awkward situation. The writing was on the wall for Edwards when DW was hired but he still was the DC. I think DW was more of an advisor and didn't want to step on toes. Plus given that it was 3-4, it was not Dw's specialty. I guess we'll have more answers next year.
missthe kgun Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Chan should be on the chop block too!!! No more accepting rubbish!!! Go Bills!!!
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