A Few Thoughts About The Game

[2003Contenders]

I am surprised that no one here complained about Gailey's stubborn over-use of Tashard Choice. Rarely does anything good happen when he steps on the field.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I am surprised that no one here complained about Gailey's stubborn over-use of Tashard Choice. Rarely does anything good happen when he steps on the field.

Oh I've complained a lot about the way Choice is used.

 

He's a decent ballplayer and I have nothing against him but you don't take your most explosive player (Spiller) off the field on 3rd and long because you've developed a 3rd down package for Choice… or because you don't trust Spiller in pass pro.

 

First of all if you use Spiller in pass pro, he's only gonna improve… for next year and the rest of his career.

 

And as long as you keep Spiller in the game, he can be motioned out and used to concern the defense as a target or a decoy.

 

To me it's indefensible when Spiller is on the sidelines in passing situations.

 

But Gailey knows best.

 

 

[The Big Cat]

Oh I've complained a lot about the way Choice is used.

 

He's a decent ballplayer and I have nothing against him but you don't take your most explosive player (Spiller) off the field on 3rd and long because you've developed a 3rd down package for Choice… or because you don't trust Spiller in pass pro.

 

First of all if you use Spiller in pass pro, he's only gonna improve… for next year and the rest of his career.

 

And as long as you keep Spiller in the game, he can be motioned out and used to concern the defense as a target or a decoy.

 

To me it's indefensible when Spiller is on the sidelines in passing situations.

 

But Gailey knows best.

 

I honestly don't know what the situation is, so don't read this as a me being a "Chan apologist" or anything that can spin the context of what I'm going to add:

 

(Keep in mind, I'm also on board with the Gruden bashing that's happening in another thread)

 

But in Gruden's little one on one rookie sessions he does for ESPN, one of the things he took CJ to task on wasCJ taking himself out of ballgames.

 

I only add this, because there's a universal frustration here that CJ isn't playing enough, and isn't a part of the offense on crucial downs. I share this frustration, but everyone seems to pin the blame on Gailey alone, but for all we know, it takes two to tango...

Edited December 29, 2011 by The Big Cat

[Gray Beard]

I am surprised that no one here complained about Gailey's stubborn over-use of Tashard Choice. Rarely does anything good happen when he steps on the field.

There was a whole thread that covered it pretty well on this forum already. Many people have noticed, and most are upset/disgusted.

linky

Edited December 29, 2011 by Gray Beard

[Maury Ballstein]

Just my opinion, I think Fitz came into training camp with a lot more zip on his throws. He'd clearly pumped up during the off-season. But he still didn't look like a top QB - they aren't cut but when you look at their arms, it's all muscle and tendons.

I would like to see Fitzy take some of his money and invest in a top quality physical trainer to work with during the off-season and a top QB trainer to work on his mechanics, especially when he is throwing off-balance.

(Who does Rodgers work with? His throwing mechanics have clearly improved)

 

I had heard that Brady wasn't as strong when he came into the league and he worked his butt off to build the arm strength he needed. It can be done. Not saying Fitz could become Brady but he could become better.

 

The other thing is Fitz needs to figure out a program to stay stronger *during* the season. It has to be tough to get in the weight training between practices and meetings and resting dings, but somehow get it done.

 

 

These things should have happened years ago...I am afraid it is a little late for Fitz to "mold" himself into a decent QB....For all these "Step into the throw" posters just stop it....Fitz has a terrible arm, and is not good enough to be a quality starter.....it is what it is.....let's move on to the next one....

[Gray Beard]

These things should have happened years ago...I am afraid it is a little late for Fitz to "mold" himself into a decent QB....For all these "Step into the throw" posters just stop it....Fitz has a terrible arm, and is not good enough to be a quality starter.....it is what it is.....let's move on to the next one....

I'm genuinely curious. Maybe I should start a new thread. Where does the next QB come from?

In my opinion, Fitz is making average QB pay, and he is an average QB.

What is the scenario for dumping Fitz and getting a different QB.

- Trade 2 years worth of picks to move up in the draft? (ain't gonna happen)

- Go after a FA with $20M a year instead of $10M a year for Fitz? (ain't gonna happen)

- Pick somebody with potential in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th round? (I like this approach, and keep Fitz for a year or two to see how things work out. But that involves keeping Fitz for a few more years, which is apparently unacceptable to many people.)

 

There are many people who constantly beat the drum that Fitz is terrible and the team needs a new QB, but nobody seems to be able to explain how that happens.

[apuszczalowski]

Don't compare SB teams O line to the Buffalo Bills line. Do the Bills have any pro bowlers on their line?

 

The Packers have a pro bowl WR in Jennings, a Pro bowl LT in Chad Clifton. plus their receiver corps and O line is far superior to what Buffalo fields

 

The Steelers have a pro bowl C in Maurkice Pouncey, again their receiver corps is far superior to anything Buffalo fields Plus both teams have great tight ends which is key in helping a QB out of trouble.

 

 

Also lets not forget that two of the Bills O line were plucked off the waiver wire, two are always injured. one is a rookie

Also lets not forget that 2 of the Steelers o-linemen were guys plucked off the Bilsl scrap heap after they were deemed useless here....

The Bills starting o-line this season is not as much of a problem as some here like to think it is. A healthy Wood, with Urbik and Levitre playing guard, Pears at RT, and Hairston improving or Bell staying heathy at LT give this team a chance to win and give them a good (not great) o-line. The Bills need playmakers, guys who can make the spectacular catches, and a QB that can get the ball too them. Fitz's problem isn't the arm strength, its the accuracy, he misfires on too many throws and they don't have any WR's that can make the catches when not thrown right too them. (i.e. they don't have guys that can go up and make catches over the DB's, or guys that make the diving catches). They also need a coach/OC that will stick with teh running game more and use Freddie and CJ more to run the ball.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I think the cold weather stuff is very overrated. The Bills have played one game out of fifteen this year in inclement conditions (against Miami), and even then it wasn't that bad. It's pretty much the same every year: 13-14 games in temps of 45 degrees or above plus a couple in the 30s. Every couple of years, you get a Cleveland '08 game. (And lest we forget, Fitz had one of his better games--16-25 for 155 with 3 TDs and no INTs--in a blizzard against Indy in 09.)

 

Also, the NFL is a passing league. The Bills run it when they're ahead, but they've been down a lot of late. I don't fault them for shifting toward the pass - it's the only way you can catch up relatively quickly. It's also worth pointing out that the Bills' 11th place rank in rushing yards is their best performance since 1999, when they finished 8th. High rushing numbers generally correlate with a winning record - not because they lead to wins, but because teams with leads rush the ball late in games.

 

Good points. The weather impact IMO is more wind than cold.

 

Kelly commented that in Nov-Dec you need to throw the ball on more of a line than an arc to be accurate in the Ralph or it will either sail on you or fall short, depending.

 

I do fault the Bills for shifting towards the pass, because I think Chan pulls the trigger on the pass-heavy attack 1) when running has been working, 2) Fitz and the receivers are having a bad day due to pressure or some other factor and 3) there is a full half to make up a 2 score deficit.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm genuinely curious. Maybe I should start a new thread. Where does the next QB come from?

In my opinion, Fitz is making average QB pay, and he is an average QB.

What is the scenario for dumping Fitz and getting a different QB.

- Trade 2 years worth of picks to move up in the draft? (ain't gonna happen)

- Go after a FA with $20M a year instead of $10M a year for Fitz? (ain't gonna happen)

- Pick somebody with potential in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th round? (I like this approach, and keep Fitz for a year or two to see how things work out. But that involves keeping Fitz for a few more years, which is apparently unacceptable to many people.)

 

There are many people who constantly beat the drum that Fitz is terrible and the team needs a new QB, but nobody seems to be able to explain how that happens.

 

I would go for the last option.

 

As far as Fitz being unacceptable to many people, I think they need to pull out their heads and look around the league.

Fitz is, in fact, a mid-rank QB meaning at any given time there are between 10 and 20 teams that would be better off with him as their QB, esp. once the injury bug bites around the league.

 

Outside of the elite (Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roeth, Peyton Manning) and the near-elite or projected to be elite (Newton, Romo, Eli Manning, Ryan, Stafford) just who would we prefer to have "perambulating the football" here? Bradford? Cassel? Flacco? Rivers? Hasselbeck? Sanchez? Kolb? Grossman? Tavaris Jackson? Who?

 

IMO it's the same folks who want to throw Stevie J into the trash because he dropped a couple passes and mimed like a fool in one game, plus he isn't named Welker, Calvin, Cruz, Smith, or Fitzgerald.

[Gray Beard]

I would go for the last option.

 

As far as Fitz being unacceptable to many people, I think they need to pull out their heads and look around the league.

Fitz is, in fact, a mid-rank QB meaning at any given time there are between 10 and 20 teams that would be better off with him as their QB, esp. once the injury bug bites around the league.

 

Outside of the elite (Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roeth, Peyton Manning) and the near-elite or projected to be elite (Newton, Romo, Eli Manning, Ryan, Stafford) just who would we prefer to have "perambulating the football" here? Bradford? Cassel? Flacco? Rivers? Hasselbeck? Sanchez? Kolb? Grossman? Tavaris Jackson? Who?

 

IMO it's the same folks who want to throw Stevie J into the trash because he dropped a couple passes and mimed like a fool in one game, plus he isn't named Welker, Calvin, Cruz, Smith, or Fitzgerald.

There have been a few people who claim that other team's second stringers are better than Fitz, and many of those people consider Fitz to be second string talent. I don't see how gambling on somebody else's second stringer is a better plan.

 

The one downside to drafting somebody and waiting to see how he works out is the risk that if he doesn't work out, then you have to start over. Kind of like Brian Brohm. He was drafted in the second round by Green Bay, but after two years in the league it was determined that he wasn't going to work out. That's why Brohm is in the UFL, and Chan went out and got Thigpen as a safety net, but from what I can see Thigpen is not even a good emergency back-up to Fitz.

[Fan in Chicago]

 

The quarterback has been beaten up just like last year when he didn't play the final two weeks.

 

The team has suffered numerous injuries in the receiving corps.

 

The team has suffered numerous injuries in the offensive line.

 

Offensive lines that are depleted are best served by running the ball… it's easier than pass pro and allows the unit to attack instead of being attacked.

 

In spite of all of this, Gailey has obstinately insisted on abandoning the run and relying on 4 and 5 wide receiver sets with an empty backfield.

[/b]

 

While I agree with most of your stuf, I differ in the end conclusion. Once fallen behind, we had to pass more and plus opposing Ds could cheat and dare us to pass. With few receiving threats, there wasnt much success to be had doing that either. So, in a way, the O was severely hampered in both ways. We absolutely need more WRs and at least one more stud O lineman. With these, Fitz can at least look average until we get a stronger armed QB who can 'make all the throws'

[thewildrabbit]

While I agree with most of your stuf, I differ in the end conclusion. Once fallen behind, we had to pass more and plus opposing Ds could cheat and dare us to pass. With few receiving threats, there wasnt much success to be had doing that either. So, in a way, the O was severely hampered in both ways. We absolutely need more WRs and at least one more stud O lineman. With these, Fitz can at least look average until we get a stronger armed QB who can 'make all the throws'

Where is it written that once behind in a game that the ONLY way to catch up is to keep passing? If it is written somewhere, it is written by fools.

 

What happens when the opponent gets the lead, especially a big lead. Say like 21 points. The opposing team thinks they have you down and almost beaten and will do several things. The opposing defense may start by having their DE's and OLB's pin their ears back and come after the QB harder knowing he is a position to only pass. They might also blitz more often knowing your going to pass more. Or, they go into a "prevent" defense in which they keep all the DB's deep and allow underneath passes but nothing deep. In any event the opposing defense will usually keep playing their 3rd down package the rest of the game on every down. They will run nickle and dime packages to stop the pass.

 

So, the smart HC/OC would just start running the ball if they see the opponent is geared up to stop the pass. If the running game is working then keep using it all the way down the field until the opposing team stops the run. Once the opposing defense gears up to stop the run, then you pass.

 

The Bills had a decent running attack this year because they ran out of the spread formation which is exactly the same formation the Jim Kelly era used to use with Thurman Thomas.

 

It really doesn't take a genius to look at a defense and work to focus against its weakness, instead of playing right into their strength.

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, Fitz has the arm to make all the throws, he just doesn't have the time to make all the throws.

 

 

 

NFN, just wanted to add that my take is Chan Gailey is so intent on building a power passing offense he neglects some of the things that can make an offense very successful, and win games. A strong running game gives your team more time of possession, keeps your defense fresh and the opposing offense off the field. A strong running game can virtually demoralize an opposing defense if they are constantly chasing down your RB. Plus it tends to wear a defense out quicker, so that in the 4th QTR with the game on the line your defense is still fresh and theirs is worn down.

 

It would seem to me when Fitz is having a bad game the very last thing you would want to do is get in a 3rd and long situation.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Fear the Beard

[truth on hold]

I would go for the last option.

 

As far as Fitz being unacceptable to many people, I think they need to pull out their heads and look around the league.

Fitz is, in fact, a mid-rank QB meaning at any given time there are between 10 and 20 teams that would be better off with him as their QB, esp. once the injury bug bites around the league.

 

Outside of the elite (Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roeth, Peyton Manning) and the near-elite or projected to be elite (Newton, Romo, Eli Manning, Ryan, Stafford) just who would we prefer to have "perambulating the football" here? Bradford? Cassel? Flacco? Rivers? Hasselbeck? Sanchez? Kolb? Grossman? Tavaris Jackson? Who?

 

IMO it's the same folks who want to throw Stevie J into the trash because he dropped a couple passes and mimed like a fool in one game, plus he isn't named Welker, Calvin, Cruz, Smith, or Fitzgerald.

none of the non-elites have a ring and it will be a minor miracle if they ever get one. Thats why it makes sense to dump a mediocre QB and continue searching for an elite one

 

Where is it written that once behind in a game that the ONLY way to catch up is to keep passing? If it is written somewhere, it is written by fools.

 

What happens when the opponent gets the lead, especially a big lead. Say like 21 points. The opposing team thinks they have you down and almost beaten and will do several things. The opposing defense may start by having their DE's and OLB's pin their ears back and come after the QB harder knowing he is a position to only pass. They might also blitz more often knowing your going to pass more. Or, they go into a "prevent" defense in which they keep all the DB's deep and allow underneath passes but nothing deep. In any event the opposing defense will usually keep playing their 3rd down package the rest of the game on every down. They will run nickle and dime packages to stop the pass.

 

So, the smart HC/OC would just start running the ball if they see the opponent is geared up to stop the pass. If the running game is working then keep using it all the way down the field until the opposing team stops the run. Once the opposing defense gears up to stop the run, then you pass.

 

The Bills had a decent running attack this year because they ran out of the spread formation which is exactly the same formation the Jim Kelly era used to use with Thurman Thomas.

 

It really doesn't take a genius to look at a defense and work to focus against its weakness, instead of playing right into their strength.

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, Fitz has the arm to make all the throws, he just doesn't have the time to make all the throws.

baloney, arm strength and accuracy have always been knocks on the guy. Intelligence, work ethic and risk taking are his strengths

[thewildrabbit]

none of the non-elites have a ring and it will be a minor miracle if they ever get one. Thats why it makes sense to dump a mediocre QB and continue searching for an elite one

 

 

baloney, arm strength and accuracy have always been knocks on the guy. Intelligence, work ethic and risk taking are his strengths

 

O really? Then tell me how far Fitz throws this ball to Stevie Johnson ....in 3 seconds no less.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGJWBWcFD_4

[truth on hold]

yeah, it's underthrown.

['64 Bills]

I am surprised that no one here complained about Gailey's stubborn over-use of Tashard Choice. Rarely does anything good happen when he steps on the field.

The more you see him play the more you understand why he changes teams pretty regularly. Chan remembers him from college. He doesn't have the package for the NFL.

[thewildrabbit]

yeah, it's underthrown.

yea right So how far did Fitz throw it, considering he has no arm strength?

 

Get over your hate for the guy.

 

Its a perfectly thrown 50 yard pass that hits the WR right over the shoulder. Why So Serious drops it and cries about it after the game, he knew he lost that game for the Bills.

 

Stop a min and think will ya, if Fitz couldn't make every throw don't you think Gailey would have taken a QB in the draft? The man wouldn't be a starting QB in the NFL if he couldn't make every throw.

[Orton's Arm]

none of the non-elites have a ring and it will be a minor miracle if they ever get one. Thats why it makes sense to dump a mediocre QB and continue searching for an elite one

Agreed. The Bills will not win the Super Bowl as long as Ryan Fitzpatrick is under center.

 

One possible strategy would be to trade Fitzpatrick away, start Thigpen in 2012, go 1-15 or 0-16, and use the resulting top-3 pick on a QB. A GM would have to have a great deal of confidence about his short-term job security to employ such a strategy.

[truth on hold]

Agreed. The Bills will not win the Super Bowl as long as Ryan Fitzpatrick is under center.

 

One possible strategy would be to trade Fitzpatrick away, start Thigpen in 2012, go 1-15 or 0-16, and use the resulting top-3 pick on a QB. A GM would have to have a great deal of confidence about his short-term job security to employ such a strategy.

With the way he's played since his new deal who would bother trading for him ?

[thewildrabbit]

Agreed. The Bills will not win the Super Bowl as long as Ryan Fitzpatrick is under center.

 

One possible strategy would be to trade Fitzpatrick away, start Thigpen in 2012, go 1-15 or 0-16, and use the resulting top-3 pick on a QB. A GM would have to have a great deal of confidence about his short-term job security to employ such a strategy.

Good lord, 4-12 / 6-9 isn't bad enough...now you want the team to tank the season so fans can endure a1-15 or 0-16 season to draft.....another possible Ryan Leaf !! just look at the history of this franchise's draft choices over the last decade

 

 

Welp, the one area you are certainly correct in, is that your assumption of Tyler Thigpen leading this team to a 1-15, 0-16 looks to be about right IMO. Then again all this franchise needs to do is retain all the same coaches, and players, and just not get as many turnovers next year, they could hit either mark.

 

 

The Bills don't need to bottom out to find an 'elite" QB, they just need to get lucky. They could revisit what brought Jim Kelly to them, draft a QB in the middle of the first round. Then let him walk, and let "mouse" Davis develop him in another league. Then hire a "real"offensive QB guru like Ted Marchibroda who will teach to him to call his own plays. Setup a spread offense, run the no huddle. OH YEA, the very first thing they need to do is find a GM like Bill Polian. Someone who is smart enough to build the O line first thing, bring in some good players to supporting cast to complement the top QB.

 

OH WAIT, you mean all the stars in the known universe would all need to align in proper order to accomplish this? Plus everyone would need to work for peanuts, players & coaches. All because they want to see Ebeneezer, Monty Burns, Jack Benny, Hetty Green, Mr Potter, Marge Schott, JW Wimpy err Ralph Wilson make even more money, so he can take it with him.

 

 

The correct statement should be....the Buffalo Bills will never even sniff the playoffs again as long as RW owns this team!