To all of the people who think we need to draft a Franchise QB

[8-8 Forever?]

Thanks to both of you for your replies. But BuffaloBaumer I understand your frustration and share it. But do you honestly believe that this team can even develop a QB prospect right now? With Donald Jones as a 2 receiver and no defense? I know you would like to see the effort but if our overall talent doesn't improve I believe any drafted QB will fail. Let's draft Fitz a legit 2 receiver and some OLBs on D and see where it goes in my opinion

 

Surely this team would function better with a Brady under center but I'm glad you realize they don't grow on trees

 

I like this post. Alex Smith, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton and Tebow appear to be doing ok because they all have good to great defenses and running games covering up their rookie mistakes. The Bills have the running game and just need the defense. Maybe you draft a QB in Rd 2 this year and start the process.

[thewildrabbit]

No drafted QB will succeed in Buffalo as it is currently constructed.

Not here to argue, but I watched the Pats replay on NFL network and couldn't help but think that the Pats are only a few players better than us.I know, I Know, I must be on crack to say such things. Take a look at the replay, they couldn't stop the Skins(who we shut out). They have no running game and no deep threat for Crists sake and that Oline needs help. The only major difference I see is Brady (the obvious one)and the 2 TE's(esp. Gronk)that make up for the lack of deep speed. But really, Brady is what makes them run right now. Without him the Pats are the Colts part II. This team would run so much better with a franchise QB, but since theres only 5 or so of them out ther, I agree, keep building this team. I think I'm gonna like what I see next season.

I disagree almost completely with that statement

 

The pats have Tom Brady, a sure fire HoF QB, a WR that leads the league in receptions, 2 great TEs, one of which is going to set records in catches and TD's. a good running game, a way better O line. To top that off the Pats have a SB winning HC who is considered one of the best NFL head coaches ever!

The defense is their weak spot with an average DC who really isn't very good as he keeps putting his players in the wrong schemes at times. Still they are getting turnovers and could come together as a unit and get better because they have some decent talent on that defense.

 

As for the Bills vs the Redskins, the Bills got extremely lucky when they played as the Skins lost a bunch of O linemen, coupled with starting QB John Beck experiment that was an utter failure. Then considering the Redskins field the 11th ranked defense in the NFL is why the Patriots played them close

 

 

The Patriots field a team that is by far so superior to the Buffalo Bills is every single facet, players, coaches, schemes. The Patriots are a super bowl caliber team with a passing defense not doing very well this season, and a rushing defense in the top 15. Right now their secondary is very banged up.

[mjt328]

Before I get started just wanted to say I've been reading these boards for awhile and I'm very happy to have found a place to discuss the Bills with fellow fans. I am in my mid 20s and have been following drafts closely since 1998. My conclusions about all the qbs drafted since 1998 lead me to believe that many of you are approaching this topic all wrong. Would a franchise QB slove a lot of our problems? You bet. But you've been asking the wrong question all along when defining a franchise QB. For bills fans the question should be how many QBS in the NFL today could come into Buffalo without any other on field changes and win football games. I count 6 since 1998. That's right only 6. Both Mannings, Rodgers, Brady, Big Ben and Brees. And two of those guys weren't even first rounders. So 4 first rounders in 13 years. Sure some of you may place a few more names in but not very many. What the bills need to do is increase talent across the board. After all take a look at the number of teams with iffy qbs in this years playoff hunt. Sanchez, Flacco, Smith, Tebow, Hasselbeck, Dalton. These guys are all asked to do little more than manage a ballgame, something Fitz would be more than capable of given good talent around him. Teams win games, that's how Hasselback and Grossman and Delhomme have made recent Super Bowls. And Guys like Cassel, Garrad, Jeff Garcia and Jake Plummef and Todf Collins have all been playoff qbs going back 5 or 6 years. No drafted QB will succeed in Buffalo as it is currently constructed. Fitz is good enough to win games if given adequate talent. Lets do that and then worry about a QB. Thanks for reading my first post happy to be on board

 

 

I don't think anyone believes that drafting a QB will immediately solve all of our problems.

OF COURSE, there will have to be a very good team constructed around that person to become a legitimate playoff/Super Bowl contender.

Even the best quarterbacks of all time needed help: Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, etc., etc.

 

But here are the facts.

 

YOU NEED A GOOD OR GREAT QUARTERBACK TO WIN CONSISTENTLY IN THE NFL.

 

Take a look at the Super Bowl winning quarterbacks through history:

Bart Starr (2), Joe Namath, Len Dawson, Johnny Unitas, Roger Staubach (2), Bob Griese (2), Terry Bradshaw (4), Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett (2), Joe Montana (4), Joe Thiesmann, Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Troy Aikman (3), Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway (2), Kurt Warner, Trent Dilfer, Tom Brady (3), Brad Johnson, Ben Roethlisberger (2), Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers

 

Through 45 Super Bowls, a whopping 23 of them (51 percent) have been won by a current Hall of Fame quarterback. When you throw in future Hall of Famers like Favre, Warner, Brady and Manning, that number jumps to 29 (64 percent). And when you consider that Roethlisberger, Brees and Rodgers are definite possibilities, that number goes up to 33 (73 percent).

 

 

So how about the other 12 Super Bowls that were not won by Hall of Famers?

 

For starters, Plunkett is the ONLY guy on the list that won it more than once. And people have been arguing for years that Plunkett and Stabler both belong in the Hall of Fame. Even if they don't deserve that great honor, both were very good quarterbacks for their era. So were Thiesmann and Simms (both were two time Pro Bowlers during their careers). And Eli Manning is one of today's top quarterbacks.

 

 

In my estimation, that only leaves SIX quarterbacks in 45 years that have won a Super Bowl without being one of the league's best passers.

 

Three of them (McMahon, Dilfer and B.Johnson) did not just have GOOD defenses supporting them. They had arguably the BEST DEFENSES OF ALL TIME carrying them (1984 Bears, 2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).

Doug Williams and Rypien both played for Joe Gibbs-led Redskins, which were stacked at every position - especially offensive line and defense.

Hostetler (as we all painfully remember) was actually the backup quarterback to Simms - so the Giants technically didn't ride him through their whole Super Bowl season.

[Dopey]

I disagree almost completely with that statement

 

The pats have Tom Brady, a sure fire HoF QB, a WR that leads the league in receptions, 2 great TEs, one of which is going to set records in catches and TD's. a good running game, a way better O line. To top that off the Pats have a SB winning HC who is considered one of the best NFL head coaches ever!

The defense is their weak spot with an average DC who really isn't very good as he keeps putting his players in the wrong schemes at times. Still they are getting turnovers and could come together as a unit and get better because they have some decent talent on that defense.

 

As for the Bills vs the Redskins, the Bills got extremely lucky when they played as the Skins lost a bunch of O linemen, coupled with starting QB John Beck experiment that was an utter failure. Then considering the Redskins field the 11th ranked defense in the NFL is why the Patriots played them close

 

 

The Patriots field a team that is by far so superior to the Buffalo Bills is every single facet, players, coaches, schemes. The Patriots are a super bowl caliber team with a passing defense not doing very well this season, and a rushing defense in the top 15. Right now their secondary is very banged up.

I guess we agree to disagree. Replace Welker with Stevie and I think you'll see Stevie is a better option(think about it, Brady to Stevie). I already mentioned Brady and the TE's, but that line is not alot better than ours, not even close to being alot better. A good running game? Come on! That Oline is aging. As for the coach, no argument there. I don't think the Giants beat us in the SB if not for Bellicheck being on the staff. That D sucks like ours and for the same reasons. They don't have the LB's to run a 3-4, so Bellicheck is running mostly a 4-3, while we run a "hybrid". As for the rush D for the Pats, you have to pass to keep up with that offense, and why run when passing on them is so easy and picks up bigger chuncks of yardage? That team is not by far better than us. Brady, the TE's and staff are where they have us beat. Pretty even after that.IMO.

[corey g]

Mjt I understand your point. But even those SB winners had massive help. All the Steelers Defenses, Emmitt Smith, Reggie White, Jerry Rice and the pats defenses from their SB winners. Notice how they arent winning tittles now? Because Brady has no defensive help. A QB needs talent around him to succeed and the Bills have the least talented roster in the NFL Until we fix that any QB we draft will fail period. We need to put a future QB in a position to win games first, and not just throw him in the fire with Donald Jones ad a 2 reciever and no defense. Failure would be assured

[mjt328]

Mjt I understand your point. But even those SB winners had massive help. All the Steelers Defenses, Emmitt Smith, Reggie White, Jerry Rice and the pats defenses from their SB winners. Notice how they arent winning tittles now? Because Brady has no defensive help. A QB needs talent around him to succeed and the Bills have the least talented roster in the NFL Until we fix that any QB we draft will fail period. We need to put a future QB in a position to win games first, and not just throw him in the fire with Donald Jones ad a 2 reciever and no defense. Failure would be assured

 

No team is going to win the championship completely on the back of one player. There is no doubt about that.

 

And there is no doubt in my mind that even if the Bills draft a future Hall of Fame quarterback, they still need massive upgrades all over the team to become a legitimate contender.

 

 

But history has proven time and time again, that championship teams demand greatness at the quarterback position. What does it tell you when 3 out of every 4 Super Bowl winning quarterbacks is in the NFL Hall of Fame (or will be someday)? It tells me that when it comes to quarterback - good usually isn't good enough.

 

At a position that demands GREATNESS...the Bills settle for mediocrity.

 

 

We can keep building the team everywhere else - adding linemen and receivers and defensive backs and linebackers - which is great...

But until we get a GREAT player under center, the odds of us ever building a championship team are very very slim. Anyone that says otherwise is paying attention to the very few exceptions (Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien) rather than the overwhleming majority of the time.

[mjt328]

Here's more proof to my point.

Let's take some of the top guys at each position. I've bolded the players with Super Bowl titles.

 

 

 

Top Quarterbacks

Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning

 

With exception of Rivers, every single one of these guys has won at least one Super Bowl. Most have their teams in the playoffs on an almost yearly basis.

 

 

Top Running Backs

Adrian Peterson, Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, Arian Foster, Maurice Jones-Drew, Darren McFadden, Jamaal Charles, Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, LeSean McCoy, Fred Jackson

 

Even when I look at more than TEN!!!! of the top running backs, I can't find even one Super Bowl title. Most of the guys on this list have never even PLAYED in a playoff game, much less sniffed a championship. What exactly has having Peterson done for Minnesota?

 

 

Top Wide Receivers

Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall, Hakeem Nicks, Wes Welker, Roddy White, Miles Austin, Greg Jennings, Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne

 

I had to really stretch the list to find some guys with rings (Jennings, Wayne). Most of the top guys have never gotten close. The Texans are going to their first playoff game this year, and that was with Johnson sidelined most of the season. Calvin Johnson has never even been to the playoffs. Even the Patriots lost their only appearance since signing Welker.

 

 

Top Offensive Linemen:

Tackles: Jake Long, Joe Thomas, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Jordan Gross, Ryan Clady

Guards/Centers: Logan Mankins, Nick Mangold, Jahri Evans, Carl Nicks, Ryan Kalil, Eric Wood, Kris Dielman, Chris Snee

 

I'm as big a supporter of focusing on the line as anyone, but how many titles have Jake Long or Joe Thomas brought to Miami and Cleveland? How about playoff appearances? You can have a great blindside protector, but it means nothing if you don't have a good quarterback to protect. Even when you factor in the great lines of New England and New Orleans, this list is pretty bare of championships.

 

 

Defensive Linemen

Ends: Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Justin Tuck, Mario Williams, Trent Cole, John Abraham, Darnell Dockett, Osi Umenyura, Justin Smith

Tackles: Jay Ratliff, Haloti Ngata, Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Kevin Williams, Ndamukong Suh, Kyle Williams

 

They say that it all comes down to the big guys up front. But I listed almost 20 of the games top defensive linemen, and only five have managed Super Bowl wins.

 

 

Linebackers

Patrick Willis, James Harrison, Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis, Demarcus Ware, Clay Matthews, Brian Orakpo, Lamar Woodley, Jerod Mayo, Tamba Hali, Jon Beason, Terrell Suggs

 

The best overall linebacker in football (Willis) will see his first playoff game this year. The best pass rusher (Ware) of the group has only been there a couple times. We've got a couple Steelers (Harrison, Woodley), Lewis and Matthews with titles, but that is it.

 

 

Defensive Backs:

Cornerbacks: Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Asomugha, Charles Woodson, Champ Bailey, Asante Samuel, Deangelo Hall

Safeties: Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, Adrian Wilson, Eric Berry

 

Asomugha, considered by many to be the best shutdown corner in football, has never been to the playoffs.

[Uncle Joe]

Wow.

 

Two virgins in one thread.

 

Good post by Corey G and yourself. Strong debuts.

 

There's a lot of good points made in this thread but what it all comes down to is who is available when we pick.

 

Throughout 3 pages, there's more agreement than disagreement.

 

If there's a highly graded QB (from a historical, not draft class perspective) available, you can't pass him up… even if he sits and learns for a year.

 

If such a QB is not available when the Bills pick, you take the best player available at a position of need. There's a growing sentiment that this is not a good year for pass rushers. Also, USC OT Matt Kahlil just declared for the draft today. Some players will rise and some will fall because it's so early. Too early to say anything definitive.

 

It's too bad we've developed our draft discussions so deeply in mid-December. Last year at this time, there was a lot less draft talk. Kinda sad.

 

FIRST ROUND-

I have to say if Luck, RG3 or Barkley is available take one.

Next would be best player available (except a smurf DB). Player of need secondary factor. Chan and Nix will look SEC and that's not bad. Those SEC boys are bigger, faster and stronger IMHO.

...Then go to the supermarket and look for future QB stocking shelves (Think Kurt Warner, his name hasn't come up in this thread )

[Koufax]

On the simplest level we need better football players, better coaches, and better health/luck.

 

To break that down a little more we especially need better pass rush, Wanny or someone similar at DC, and not to lose our best OL and best DL and best CB and best player to IR along with others in the same season.

 

I would rather have a young mad genius, but I think Chan is capable of running the team and the offense, and I think Buddy is capable of making smart roster decisions. If you add in some defense (I love the idea of Wanny coaching a 4-3 with a starting front line of #13 pick, Dareus, Kyle, and Carrington), and we continue to progress, I think this team can improve. Last year we were a 4-12 team. This year we are a 7-9 or 8-8 team (underperforming), and next year there is a reasonable expectation to be a 10-6 team. The last six games have been hugely disappointing, and I would happily can our DC already, but I still see this team as progressing and on the right track to improve roster talent and field execution year by year without having aging veterans that make the window of opportunity short.

[corey g]

Mjt when you break it down to individuals you miss the big picture. Are you correct in general? Yup but keep in mind that Eli has missed a few postseasons and Rodgers will only be making his 2nd appearance. And he happened to inherent a team that went to an NFC title game. Rodgers is awesome but you seem to have tunnel vision on QBS only. Ignoring what needs to be in place in order for a young QB to succeed. When their are already some pieces in place, it's easier to have success. See Flacco, Dalton and Sanchez when you don't it's harder to succeed see Leinart Leftwitch Carr or Harrington. Find me a great defense that doesn't make the postseason or at least help their QB. I just don't want another scenario where the whole franchise is on a young QBS back. If we drafted one now that's where we would be. The more help we can give to a young QB,!the greater the chance of success

Edited December 16, 2011 by corey g

[robert cohen]

didn't say it would be easy it just hast to be done. My Guy is Ryan Tannehill who has all the tools necessary to be the franchise QB and we should be able to get him in the second.

shut up about tannenhill.. he will never be any good.. he regressed so bad this yr.. did u even watch him play?? he has great WR's and just kept losing.. hes lost in pocket and is a total project.. the guy has played QB for 1 yr.. if we use a pick on QB, it HAS to be one of the top 3 and MAYBE landry jones.. enough with tannenhill.. u dont shut up about him and hes no upgrade from fitz

[Big Hurt]

I think if a great QB prospect is there to be taken, you have to take it. However, do not reach for one just because you need one. Even Fitz is good enough, that does not mean you cannot upgrade. Green Bay did with Rogers when they had Favre, and the Colts is doing the same with Manning/Luck. Great QB don't grow on trees. So take a chance if there is an opportunity.

 

Also the Bills need to do a better job retaining talents. We always have so many holes on this team because once certain players got to be good, they became too expensive to re-sign with this team. (Let see if they are going to let Stevie Johnson walk this year). My question is, why even bother drafting good players if you don't intend to keep them around? The Bills seem to only interested in the average players and overpay them.

 

We spend so many year drafting players to replace the known good players that they let go, they need to start keeping the right players with this team -- the great players, the pro-bowl players!

 

It is hard to find a great QB, which a lot of you agree that it is important to find one, the Bills will not find one if they continue to draft scared. "What if we draft the wrong guy?" "If we spend the 1st pick on a QB and he is a bust, then we wasted our chance to pick an impact player." Well, how are we doing? Most of the recent first round picks were either cut or traded for dirt. The Bills management need to start looking at the mirror because they are the problems.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Big Hurt

[sllib olaffub]

Nice Post.

 

I believe a quarterback in the NFL has a career - if he is good - of about 10 years. So, over the course of 10 years, how often does a team have a chance to draft a really good, franchise QB? Most teams only have a shot at drafting a really great QB about once a decade. When have the Bills passed on great QB's? Not often. They seem to win just enough to miss out on the good ones. My point in this regard - if there is a really great QB prospect that your franchise is sold on (another frustration with Bills - they can't evaluate talent good enough to know who is worth going hard after!) but, if there is a good one, you do what you can to get him; and, especially if he is just there, in your lap, you take him! I could argue that even already having one, you could draft another and have more trade value in the pick than what your pick alone would be worth.

 

The thing with Buffalo is they don't seem to get there, not after three years, not after six - there just hasn't been that window where all the pieces are in place. Now we are looking at draft number 3 with Nix and Gailey, and that SHOULD be the year the pieces are falling into place. I absolutely believe a great QB can make an average offense a good one, or even a very good one. And, you take away a good QB and replace him with a weak armed, very inaccurate QB, and the other pieces could be good, but the offense might stall. So, bottom line, we take the QB if we can, and throw the rest at the Defense.

 

And, another frustrating thing - I believe this team could add every piece it needed in next year's offseason to make Buffalo a very good team. But, we'd have to have a front office set on doing whatever it needed to - and ours just seems very intent on trying to pull the wool over the fan's eyes as long as they can, with pathetic excuses like "not enough depth" while they're sitting on 30 million in cap space! Aghh!

[Orton's Arm]

I don't think anyone believes that drafting a QB will immediately solve all of our problems.

OF COURSE, there will have to be a very good team constructed around that person to become a legitimate playoff/Super Bowl contender.

Even the best quarterbacks of all time needed help: Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, etc., etc.

 

But here are the facts.

 

YOU NEED A GOOD OR GREAT QUARTERBACK TO WIN CONSISTENTLY IN THE NFL.

 

Take a look at the Super Bowl winning quarterbacks through history:

Bart Starr (2), Joe Namath, Len Dawson, Johnny Unitas, Roger Staubach (2), Bob Griese (2), Terry Bradshaw (4), Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett (2), Joe Montana (4), Joe Thiesmann, Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Troy Aikman (3), Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway (2), Kurt Warner, Trent Dilfer, Tom Brady (3), Brad Johnson, Ben Roethlisberger (2), Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers

 

Through 45 Super Bowls, a whopping 23 of them (51 percent) have been won by a current Hall of Fame quarterback. When you throw in future Hall of Famers like Favre, Warner, Brady and Manning, that number jumps to 29 (64 percent). And when you consider that Roethlisberger, Brees and Rodgers are definite possibilities, that number goes up to 33 (73 percent).

 

 

So how about the other 12 Super Bowls that were not won by Hall of Famers?

 

For starters, Plunkett is the ONLY guy on the list that won it more than once. And people have been arguing for years that Plunkett and Stabler both belong in the Hall of Fame. Even if they don't deserve that great honor, both were very good quarterbacks for their era. So were Thiesmann and Simms (both were two time Pro Bowlers during their careers). And Eli Manning is one of today's top quarterbacks.

 

 

In my estimation, that only leaves SIX quarterbacks in 45 years that have won a Super Bowl without being one of the league's best passers.

 

Three of them (McMahon, Dilfer and B.Johnson) did not just have GOOD defenses supporting them. They had arguably the BEST DEFENSES OF ALL TIME carrying them (1984 Bears, 2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).

Doug Williams and Rypien both played for Joe Gibbs-led Redskins, which were stacked at every position - especially offensive line and defense.

Hostetler (as we all painfully remember) was actually the backup quarterback to Simms - so the Giants technically didn't ride him through their whole Super Bowl season.

You've hit the ball out of the park, both with this post and your other posts in this thread. Everything you've written is spot-on accurate.

 

I'd also like to reiterate that a typical NFL team will acquire a franchise-level QB about once every 45 - 50 years. A team that passes up a franchise QB in an effort to fill other needs first consigns itself to near-certain mediocrity for a very long time to come. (Presumably the next 45 years or so, assuming it will acquire new franchise QBs at the average pace for an NFL team.)

 

I will also add another argument: because QB is the most important position on the field, QBs tend to be taken earlier, relative to their talent level, than players at any other position. This means that the best (or at least highest-rated) QBs will tend to go to the worst teams with the most holes. A team that waits to fill its other holes before taking a QB will not have access to the highest-rated QBs of the draft. Filling those other holes will reduce its draft position.

 

Tom Brady is often cited as a franchise QB taken in the later rounds. But he was picked back in 2000. Since then, how many Tom Brady stories have there been? Since 2000, there has been only one franchise QB taken 33rd overall or later: Matt Schaub. (If I'm forgetting anyone, please let me know.) Assuming a typical NFL team drafts an average of 0.5 late round QBs per year, a team trying to find a franchise QB in the later rounds of the draft would have to wait an average of 160 years before succeeding. I would prefer not to have to wait 160 years for the rebuilding process to succeed, but that's just me.

 

The argument has been made that a bad situation might spoil the development of a rookie QB. There might be some truth to this. However, I would argue that a lot of franchise QBs, such as Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman, began their careers in bad situations. I would also argue that the overwhelming majority of first round QB busts would not have become franchise QBs no matter what their situation had been. Does anyone seriously believe that Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Jamarcus Russell, or Akili Smith could have rivaled Manning or Rodgers, had they been in better situations?

 

That said, I hate the thought of a first round QB being set up to fail. One way to avoid that is by eschewing franchise QBs until the other pieces are in place. (A strategy that practically guarantees you will not draft a franchise QB or win a Super Bowl). Another strategy is to do what the Bengals did with Carson Palmer. As a rookie, Palmer was told he would be third string, and that nothing he could do would get him out of third string status during his rookie year. A reasonably solid, serviceable veteran, in the form of Jon Kitna, was the Bengals' starter that year. In Palmer's second year, he was anointed the starter, and Kitna was told there was nothing he could do to earn back the starting spot. A veteran QB will often outplay a first-time starter, so that decision avoided a Johnson/Flutie-style drama. More generally, the Bengals' process is how all rookie first round QBs should be brought along! Letting the rookie sit on the bench for a year also gives you an extra year to fix the team's other flaws.

[NewEra]

We need a franchise QB. Whether or not one is available when we pick, that's up to buddy, chan and Ralph. I only think there's 3 qbs worth a 1st rd pick, luck, barkley and rg3. I'd rather pass on taking one in rd 2-4. I don't think any of the guys drafted in those rounds this year will turn out to be a "special" qb. We need a special qb, not a decent qb. We have a decent qb. My theory stands, if there's a qb on the board when we pick, that our FO thinks will be special, draft him. No questions asked. If we take Landry Jones, who, IMO will never amount to anything in the league, I'll still be behind the pick. Those guys know more than I, and if they think he can be special, let's do it.

[corey g]

Apperciate all the feedback folks. Believe me I have no issues with drafting a QB under the right circumstances. This year for instance I probably would not pass on Luck Barkley or my favorite of the class RG 3. but I wouldn't trade up to get them, this team has too many holes to give up picks. And I believe some of you are a little QB crazy, I'm hearing Tannehill and Jones, even in the 2nd round these guys would be awful choices, we can't desperately attempt to acquire a QB. If we did draft one, it would have to be one of the first 3 mentioned not via trade and he would have to sit at least 2 seasons while the roster was built. That's why I wouldn't draft a QB if pressed into making a choice, it wouldn't disappoint me in the right case, but a team this talent deprived needs immediate impact players. Thanks for the great discussion on my first post everybody

[NewEra]

1324043837[/url]' post='2337369']

I don't think anyone believes that drafting a QB will immediately solve all of our problems.

OF COURSE, there will have to be a very good team constructed around that person to become a legitimate playoff/Super Bowl contender.

Even the best quarterbacks of all time needed help: Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, etc., etc.

 

But here are the facts.

 

YOU NEED A GOOD OR GREAT QUARTERBACK TO WIN CONSISTENTLY IN THE NFL.

 

Take a look at the Super Bowl winning quarterbacks through history:

Bart Starr (2), Joe Namath, Len Dawson, Johnny Unitas, Roger Staubach (2), Bob Griese (2), Terry Bradshaw (4), Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett (2), Joe Montana (4), Joe Thiesmann, Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Troy Aikman (3), Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway (2), Kurt Warner, Trent Dilfer, Tom Brady (3), Brad Johnson, Ben Roethlisberger (2), Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers

 

Through 45 Super Bowls, a whopping 23 of them (51 percent) have been won by a current Hall of Fame quarterback. When you throw in future Hall of Famers like Favre, Warner, Brady and Manning, that number jumps to 29 (64 percent). And when you consider that Roethlisberger, Brees and Rodgers are definite possibilities, that number goes up to 33 (73 percent).

 

 

So how about the other 12 Super Bowls that were not won by Hall of Famers?

 

For starters, Plunkett is the ONLY guy on the list that won it more than once. And people have been arguing for years that Plunkett and Stabler both belong in the Hall of Fame. Even if they don't deserve that great honor, both were very good quarterbacks for their era. So were Thiesmann and Simms (both were two time Pro Bowlers during their careers). And Eli Manning is one of today's top quarterbacks.

 

 

In my estimation, that only leaves SIX quarterbacks in 45 years that have won a Super Bowl without being one of the league's best passers.

 

Three of them (McMahon, Dilfer and B.Johnson) did not just have GOOD defenses supporting them. They had arguably the BEST DEFENSES OF ALL TIME carrying them (1984 Bears, 2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).

Doug Williams and Rypien both played for Joe Gibbs-led Redskins, which were stacked at every position - especially offensive line and defense.

Hostetler (as we all painfully remember) was actually the backup quarterback to Simms - so the Giants technically didn't ride him through their whole Super Bowl season.

 

It's simple.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

shut up about tannenhill.. he will never be any good.. he regressed so bad this yr.. did u even watch him play?? he has great WR's and just kept losing.. hes lost in pocket and is a total project.. the guy has played QB for 1 yr.. if we use a pick on QB, it HAS to be one of the top 3 and MAYBE landry jones.. enough with tannenhill.. u dont shut up about him and hes no upgrade from fitz

It about time some one noticed. I have been watching him for two years and he hasn't regressed he had no defense this year and then lost his running game when Cyrus Gray went down and any QB in that situation would "regress" if they had to carry the whole team. Have you watched the games, he isn't lost in the pocket and can make all the throws and can run like the wind. He way outperformed RG3 and is head shoulders above Jones and Barkely. The only QB better than him is Luck. This kid will be great in the NFL and in after 3 years he sucks I will say I was wrong.

[thewildrabbit]

I guess we agree to disagree. Replace Welker with Stevie and I think you'll see Stevie is a better option(think about it, Brady to Stevie). I already mentioned Brady and the TE's, but that line is not alot better than ours, not even close to being alot better. A good running game? Come on! That Oline is aging. As for the coach, no argument there. I don't think the Giants beat us in the SB if not for Bellicheck being on the staff. That D sucks like ours and for the same reasons. They don't have the LB's to run a 3-4, so Bellicheck is running mostly a 4-3, while we run a "hybrid". As for the rush D for the Pats, you have to pass to keep up with that offense, and why run when passing on them is so easy and picks up bigger chuncks of yardage? That team is not by far better than us. Brady, the TE's and staff are where they have us beat. Pretty even after that.IMO.

 

Are you seriously trying to compare Wess Welker to Stevie Johnson ? Welker has 100 catches vs 63 for Johnson. The #1 receiver in the NFL vs the 24th. A lot of fans in this forum here don't want to see Johnson get paid top WR money when he clearly doesn't always play like one. Johnson drops a ton of balls, kinda like TO.

 

Another misconception of yours is the Buffalo Bills O line. Because Fitz manages to find the open receiver and hit him in 3 seconds or under it negates most of the pass rush against him. That line was ranked earlier this year by ESPN when Eric Wood was healthy and it was rated as the second worst in the NFL in allowing pressure to the QB in less then 3 seconds. So its a good thing Fitz is able to get rid of the ball so quickly, right? Oh, but wait a min! That was during the first part of the season where teams hadn't figured out how to stop the Bills offense by jamming the WR's at the LoS. Now that teams have figured out Gaileys short, quick passing game the offense went into the toilet because Fitz can't throw the 5-7 step drop passes. Why you ask? Because that Bills O line can't give him time. The Buffalo Bills field one of the worst pass blocking lines in the NFL.

 

Conversely the Patriots are dependent on a much more versatile offense where they utilize every throw in their playbook short, mid, deep. This season Brady's protection isn't quite as good because of injuries to the Pats O line. So when he takes a 7 step drop to throw the deep ball his protection isn't always there and Brady is under more duress. Brady #2 QB in the league vs Firtz #12

 

Get a grip on reality, the Bills are 5-8 and will probably finish this season at 5-11. They are a bad team on offense and even worse on defense. The Patriots however are currently 10-3 and might end up playing in the SB as they play Denver-Miami-Buffalo their last 3 games, and could finish 12-4 or better. "IF" that Patriot defense can stop trying to play man to man and stay in cover 2 they could conceivably get better by the time they hit the playoffs...provided their secondary gets healthy again.

 

Like I said, every facet on offense they are better. Line-QB- receiver corps-coaching staff, scheme,and better RB now with Jackson on IR. The Patriots defensive secondary is even better, their problem is their DC might be even worse then George Edwards

[#34fan]

Very reactionary as well ad reaching illogical conclusions here. Is fits the QB for 10 years absolutely not. Does he make head starching mistakes you betcha. Is he better than anyone in Buffalo since Flutie, yup. And your missing the bigger picture NO QB that the Bills draft could flourish with this roster. NONE period, we have starters that we be practice squad players anywhere else. Get better overall talent, thus putting a QB we draft maybe 2 years from now in a better position to succeed. It's a QB driven league sure, but complete teams win titles

 

"My conclusions about all the qbs drafted since 1998 lead me to believe that many of you are approaching this topic all wrong. Would a franchise QB slove a lot of our problems? You bet. But you've been asking the wrong question all along when defining a franchise QB. For bills fans the question should be how many QBS in the NFL today could come into Buffalo without any other on field changes and win football games. I count 6 since 1998. That's right only 6. Both Mannings, Rodgers, Brady, Big Ben and Brees." -corey g

 

Can't think of anything more illogical and reactionary than listing the leagues elite QB's and summarily proclaiming them good fits for our offense. I mean wtf??? I know you're only 25, but that's just pathetic. I can totally believe you've been watching this board for a very long time. Scanning the poular threads, -guaging reactions. You bided your time and came up with the most lazy, benign, and non-confrontational thread imaginable. Way to walk into a room on your knees, kid. You'll have a nice life here at TBD agreeing with all the homers and (most of)the mods. That's a pretty safe course. Me? I call a spade a spade.

 

"many of you are approaching this topic all wrong"

Really? How's that? You've already admitted that a franchise QB would "solve a lot of our problems". You've also said that Fitz makes "head-starching" decisions and isn't the guy for the next ten years. I'm not one for head-starch, but it sounds to me like someone has a problem taking unpopular stands.

 

Then there was this...

 

"After all take a look at the number of teams with iffy qbs in this years playoff hunt. Sanchez, Flacco, Smith, Tebow, Hasselbeck, Dalton. These guys are all asked to do little more than manage a ballgame, something Fitz would be more than capable of given good talent around him."

"iffy"? Really?

 

Flacco inherited a 5-11 Ravens team in 2008. He took them to the playoffs his rookie season, He also went to the playoffs the next season... And the next.

 

Sanchez made it to the AFC title games in his first two seasons. Back to back. Pretty "iffy" if you asked me.

 

Hasselbeck: This "iffy" guy led the seahawks to six consecutive playoff games, and a Superbowl. Now with the Titans, he recently iffied his way to a 23-17 victory over our beloved Bills.

 

Tebow got handed a 1-4 squad. He's currently 7-1 this season as a starter. Again, the iffyness abounds.

 

I hoping like heck we draft somebody as "iffy" as any of the aforementioned QBs. That would be better than Fitz, who I'd place somewhere between "suspect" and just plain "bad"

Edited December 17, 2011 by #34fan