BillsFanM.D. Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 OC is right. It's the culture. No matter what, if that kid is living next door to crackheads and hookers, busing him to a whiter elementary school isn't going to solve the problem. When kids learn a mentality at home, they bring that with them to school. The teachers can change that mentality. BUT busing only does it one or two at a time, so it's not effective on a large scale. However, getting a group of 25 or 30 kids to change the way they think IS effective. Then they go home, play with the other kids, talk to their families, and that mentality rubs off. Suddenly you have a good cycle getting started, instead of a bad cycle repeating itself with a couple of outliers here and there. 5. Urban culture is actually really great. I'm a city guy. We lived in West Baltimore growing up, moved to SE DC, and ended up in PG County right on the DC line before I left for college. Don't know where you grew up and I won't make any assumptions. There is a lot to like about the inner city and inner city folks. A lot of good comes out of those communities as well. The most intelligent person that I've ever met aspired to be a rapper all throughout middle and high school. He was a product of DC schools. He walked around with a hoody and headphones singing Wu Tang songs all throughout high school. He was expelled from school and not allowed to attend prom because of a "bum rush" group fight in the cafeteria in 11th grade. He went on to school, received his PHd and was teaching holomorphic functions and differentiation formulas at Cornell before getting a job with the government (keeping the country safe - when you're as intelligent as he is, I guess you don't run into clearance issues). In his current line of work, they only want the best and the brightest. Not what you may have expected 20 years ago from the young man from the ghetto of Anacostia. Comment above highlighted for emphasis. Educational framework, moral fiber, work ethic, character etc. are all components of life that HAVE to begin at home. The failure(s) of our education system are largely based on a 'home based' problem IMHO. J8's example of knowing someone who overcame a bad 'educational' environment is, perhaps, supportive of my point. I say perhaps as I don't know him obviously. For the sake of discussion.....This student was presumably in a less than ideal school (per description) yet was able to have tremendous success in life. I strongly suspect he had a great parent(s), sibling, grandparent or mentor that instilled in him the aforementioned personality traits before and during his formative years. His developed sense of work and effort would not be 'destroyed' by a less than ideal education system. I.e. you get out of the system what you put in to a certain degree....despite perceived and real obstacles. Likewise, a student who lives near 'hookers and crackheads' could be shipped anywhere and given the 'best' educational tools, yet would almost certainly fail if he had no 'home' education. This problem, like so many in our society, START at home. Teachers, facilities, funding and the like all can have big impact in certain situations. However, they cannot (typically) change a culture/mindset on a broad scale. Educators cannot 'follow' the kids home and do their homework with them; or read to them; or share life experiences with them, or spend time mentoring them to the degree that is needed on an individual basis. This HAS to come from home and any parent/guardian should know this and should want to be involved. Education is a grind. A battle if you will. These kids need basic training at home before and during their education. Without it.....only the 'few' will manage to overcome the inherent bad situations in our system and others will have money/programs thrown at them despite no realistic chance of success. This problem can be extrapolated to many different theoretical starting points. I just feel the best place, and the most obvious one, is at home.
3rdnlng Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 1. Tried to resist responding but couldn't. Your name as the thread author, coupled with the topic of "urban culture," was too attractive to maintain distance. 2. I could deconstruct this argument in a few different ways but then I'll get excoriated for being "too serious" and a party crasher so I'll refrain and just play along. 3. I have to add a substantive component to this enumeration so I will say that one of the few ways that I've found to improve the culture (with respect to schools in primarily urban districts) and, by extension, the performance, is a managed form of affirmative action to address an extant economic disparity. 3a. Thesis developed further here: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139324-affirmative-action/ 4. Also, at least in DC, there is the issue of folks benefitting from the affluent DC job economy, but spending that money in the surburban MD and VA communities. DC transients have made Montgomery, Howard, Fairfax and Loudon counties 4 of the wealthiest counties in the nation perennially. 4a. Not much attention is devoted to how the lack of tax revenue affects DC public schools and public programs. Generally there is a functional relationship between income and tax revenue. This is not the case when folks commute to huge cities for work, and leave to another state to do everything else. Places like DC, NYC (with people coming out of NJ, CT); Atlanta, etc. are running into the same problem. It only disadvantages lower income families because education is one of the first budget casualties. 5. "Urban culture" is actually really great. I'm a city guy. We lived in West Baltimore growing up, moved to SE DC, and ended up in PG County right on the DC line before I left for college. Don't know where you grew up and I won't make any assumptions. There is a lot to like about the inner city and inner city folks. A lot of good comes out of those communities as well. I can elaborate if you care to know. The most intelligent person that I've ever met aspired to be a rapper all throughout middle and high school. He was a product of DC schools. He walked around with a hoody and headphones singing Wu Tang songs all throughout high school. He was expelled from school and not allowed to attend prom because of a "bum rush" group fight in the cafeteria in 11th grade. He went on to school, received his PHd and was teaching holomorphic functions and differentiation formulas at Cornell before getting a job with the government (keeping the country safe - when you're as intelligent as he is, I guess you don't run into clearance issues). In his current line of work, they only want the best and the brightest. Not what you may have expected 20 years ago from the young man from the ghetto of Anacostia. I'm kind using "inner city" and "urban culture" synonymously. Not sure if you are as well or if you have some other point of reference. Since you didn't specify, I'll assume that by "urban culture" you mean the mentalities, groups, dispositions, aesthetic, paradigms, inclinations, associations, concerns, experiences, behaviors, and cultivations extant amongst inner city residents. 6. In brevity, my initial reaction to your post could be described thusly: youtube.com/watch?v=PuZ1nvagxT8 7. I want to conclude by saying again that there is a lot to like about urban culture. I think that you short-cutted and discounted some aesthetic, subjective and abstract qualities in your post. Somehow it doesn't prevent them from spending over $28000 per student, per year though. http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/02/dc-public-schools-129-trillion-28170.html
OCinBuffalo Posted December 14, 2011 Author Posted December 14, 2011 Easy, game shows are only about ratings. You may think that they are about test of knowledge or skill, but many are not. Just look at the history of game shows, they are more about the entertainment than a test of skill. Tell me do you need a lot of skill to tell Monty what's behind door #2, or telling Chuck Woolery where was the weirdest place you had sex? Oprah giving out prizes to the audience is no different that the nobleman throwing out coins to the peasants for centuries. It's ablip on the radar of the nihilistic culture you decstibe. And Oprah's act is more of a descendant of Donahue than a peer of Springer. But with Oprah, you do...nothing. It's interesting that you say Donahue. Perhaps that's where all of this started? It's either that, or Entertainment Tonight, or Geraldo.
Juror#8 Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) I have lived in cities my entire life. Big ones. I sold my car in 2005 and I doubt I will ever buy another. If I need one, I rent it. We can all provide anecdotal evidence of the random dude from the block that made good. How does that explain or refute the national urban teen pregnancy #s? Again, there's very little to learn from a guy who's song refrain is "slap my B word up". Yeah, how much time should we spend on interpreting what the "artist" was trying to express? Where is the value in that? 300 years from now, is a music appreciation teacher going to be challenging her students to provide what "slap my B word up" means to them? This culture has no value. None at all. (Edit: well put it this way, it had a lot of value, when I was in 9th grade...dancing around like an idiot. It was fun. Rob Base was great then, but I was also playing Copland then too. I still play Copland now.) DC pols need to stop pretending that refusing to confront this terrible culture makes them "compassionate" or "understanding" or "tolerant". It simply makes you a sucker. These city people are scamming you, and you are letting them, so that you can say you have street cred/you aren't the tight ass guy who can't dance? Dude, as a person who actually does have street cred, I know a scam when I see one. The writing is on the wall: the macroeconomic "more funding"/"less funding" approach to education has failed. Smart politicians, and their aides, can benefit from a study like this. Dumb ones will not recognize the opportunity and be hurt by it. Again, I'll oblige you... MUCH of the great music, art, theatre of the 20th century is a direct result of urban culture and urban experience. Jazz, Blues, Rock and Roll, Hip Hop is all the result of urbanites, in largely depressed economic communities, reflecting on their experience and expressing it artistically through the conduit of music. I'll say again, Jazz, Blues, Rock and Roll, and Hip Hop at its core and genesis, is a reflection of urban culture. Wanna argue the creative, financial, aesthetic impact of these musical genres? Will you argue against their significance artistically, societally, or otherwise? We're now talking about global import. In a more attenuated way, the genres mentioned above impacted the development and evolution of pop - which, in combination with neo-country music, dominates the population of music listeners. No significance? No contribution? No redeeming value? At let's discuss "hip hop," or "rap" music. You trivialized it with your "slap the _____ up" characterization. But does that really encapsulate rap music? The rap industry generates billions of dollars for record companies and artists annually. Billions. This is an industry that originated from the streets. Anything legal that originates from a culture, and can be continually ascribed to a culture, that generates billions in revenue and employs hundreds of thousands of people world-wide, is per se relevant, meaningful, significant, valuable and impactful. Now on to the artistry: At its core, rap music is an art form that requires an understanding of rhythm, cadence, syntax, and vocabulary in order to tell an esoteric urban story in such a way that the listener can understand through a strategic use of metaphors and other literary devices. This endeavor is made more difficult because there is a rhyming scheme that must be adhered to, and a point communicated, that holds the listeners attention. Two examples - both salacious, and onery at first blush: Little Wayne - "6 foot 7 foot" "Excuse my charisma, vodka with a spritzer swagger down pat, call my **** Patricia Young Money militia, and I am the commissioner you dont want start Weezy, cause the F is for Finisher So misunderstood, but whats a World without enigma? two bitches at the same time, synchronized swimmers got the girl twisted cause she open when you twist her never met the B word, but I f-ck her like I missed her Life is the B word, and death is her sister sleep is the cousin, what a f-ckin family picture you know father time, we all know mother nature its all in the family, but I am of no relation no matter whos buying, Im a celebration black and white diamonds, f-ck segregation" At first blush, the subject matter is odious, rude, and appears to contain no redeeming social value. But not so. If you read it, it's entertaining. It flows. It tells a story. There are double entendres, metaphors, and a continual rhyme scheme throughout the verse. There are three levels of inter-relation. It's poetry, but not in any conventional sense. The next example will highlight this principle, and the dichomoty, better. Edited December 14, 2011 by Juror#8
Juror#8 Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 Biggie Smalls "Ni**s Bleed" Verse 1 "Today's agenda Got the suitcase up in the Sentra Go to room 112, tell em Blanco sent ya Feel the strangest If no money exchanges I got these kids in ranges Believe them niggas brainless All they tote is stainless You just remain as Calm as possible, make the deal go thru If not, here's 12 shots, we know how you do Please make yo killins clean Slugs up in between They eyes, like True Lies Kill em and flee the scene Just bring back the coke or the cream Or else, yo life is on the shelf We mean this Frank Them cats we !@#$in wit put bombs in yo moms gas tank Lets get this money baby They shady, we get shady Dress up like ladies And burn em with 30 380's Then they come to kill our babies That all out I got gats that blow the wall out Clear the mall out !@#$ the fallout Word is Stretch, I bet they kitty The seven digits push me !@#$in real Here's the deal I got a hundred bricks, 14-5 a piece Enough to rooster a six by the house on the beach Supply the peeps with Jeeps Brick a piece Capiche? Everybody gettin cream No one considered the leech Think about it now, thats damn near 1 point 5 I kill em all I'll be set for life Frank pay attention These mutha!@#$as is henchmen Renegades, if you die they still get paid Extra probably, !@#$ the robbery I'm the boss Promise you won't rob em, I promise But of course you know I had my fingers crossed Verse 2 Since it's on, I call my nigga Arizona Ron From Tuscon, push the black Yukon Usually has the slow grooves on Mostly rock the Isley Stupid as a youngin, chose not to move wisely Sharper with game, him and his crooks, caught a ?jooks? Heard it was sweet, bout 350 a piece Ron bought a truck, 2 bricks layed in the cut His peeps got bucked, got locked the !@#$ up Thats when Rob vanished, came back, speakin spanish Lavish habits, two rings, 20 carats Heres a criminal Nigga made America's Most Killed his baby's mother's brother, slit his throat The nigga got bagged with the toast, weeded Took it to trial, beat it Now he feel he undefeated He mean it Nothing To Lose, tattooed around his gun wounds Heavy in the game, embedded in his brain And me I feel the same for this money and diamonds Specially if my daughter cryin, I ain't lyin Y'all know the signs Verse 3 We agreed to shoot till we silly Because niggas could be hidin in showers with Mac Billy's So I freaked em The telly manager was Puerto Rican Gloria, from Historia, I went to war with her Peeps in 91, stole a gun from her workers And they took drugs, they tried to jerk us We blaze they place, long story Glo seent my face, got shook Thought a nigga was comin for the safe Now she breakin, shut up, 112, whats shakin A jamaican, some bitches I swear They look gay In a black Range Rover Been outside all day If its trouble let me know, I'll be on my way Please I got kids to feed, I done seen you make niggas bleed Nightmare, this B word don't leave Ron, get the gasoline This spot, we bout to blow Lets get the cash before the cops and Range Rover cats notice Its room 112 Right by the staircase, perfect place When they evacuate, they meet they fate Ron pass the gasoline The nigga gave me kerosene !@#$ it, its flammable My hunger is unexplainable Strike the match, just what I expected The dred kid ejected in seconds And here come two Opposite sexes One black, one Malaysian We in the hallway waitin patient As soon as she hit the door we start blastin I saw her brains hit the floor Ron laughin I swear to God I hit MaxiPriest at least 12 times in the chest Spint around, shot the chick in the breast She cryin, headshots put her to rest Pop open the briefcases, nothin but Franco faces The spots hot, sprinklers, alarm systems Thats when other guests start to slip in Its time for us to get to dippin I know them niggas in the Range is on they way up Flippin, pistol grippin I know they clippin The hallway, got real loud and crowded They walked right past us I dont know how they allowed it The funny thing about it Through all the excitement They Range got towed, they double parked by a hydrant Stupid mother!@#$ers" Again, it's onery, pretentious, violent, odious...at first blush. But it's UNDENIABLY poetry. It's a narrative. Biggie is telling a story. It's no different than "Goodfellas," or "Scarface," or "Godfather," only without the visual component. The gentleman provided a window into his world. He told a story. There was exposition. There was rising action. There was Denouement. There was a conclusion. This is not artistically devoid. There is redeeming social value. There is a level of skill and proficiency required to write a good story, replete with humor, angst, drama, action, plot, and character introduction/discussion. And his story was told in 4 minutes, set to rhythm and a rhyme scheme for ease of digestion. Now there is some rap that is loud, obnoxious, crap that doesn't tell a story, isn't narrative, and contains almost no words. But there are some early Metallica songs that fit that description as well. Rap is yet another valuable thing that originates from urban culture.
Fastback Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 Great discussion OC. To deny that culture is a primary factor is foolish. It, as you pointed out, is not race specific. I also can relate to your military comparison having spent 21 years of my life in the Corps. I also agree with M.D.'s comments about the importance of strong parenting at home that supports a strong work ethic and education. But doesn't that lead back to culture?
Jauronimo Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Again, I'll oblige you... MUCH of the great music, art, theatre of the 20th century is a direct result of urban culture and urban experience. Jazz, Blues, Rock and Roll, Hip Hop is all the result of urbanites, in largely depressed economic communities, reflecting on their experience and expressing it artistically through the conduit of music. I'll say again, Jazz, Blues, Rock and Roll, and Hip Hop at its core and genesis, is a reflection of urban culture. Wanna argue the creative, financial, aesthetic impact of these musical genres? Will you argue against their significance artistically, societally, or otherwise? We're now talking about global import. In a more attenuated way, the genres mentioned above impacted the development and evolution of pop - which, in combination with neo-country music, dominates the population of music listeners. No significance? No contribution? No redeeming value? At let's discuss "hip hop," or "rap" music. You trivialized it with your "slap the _____ up" characterization. But does that really encapsulate rap music? The rap industry generates billions of dollars for record companies and artists annually. Billions. This is an industry that originated from the streets. Anything legal that originates from a culture, and can be continually ascribed to a culture, that generates billions in revenue and employs hundreds of thousands of people world-wide, is per se relevant, meaningful, significant, valuable and impactful. Now on to the artistry: Larry the Cable Guy through one sentence fragment also created a multi-million dollar industry and sparked a redneck pride movement. So by J8's standards, whereby cultural significance is measured in dollar signs, Git'R'Done ranks just above the polio vaccine but well below gangster rap on the scale of human achievement. The urban culture that gave rise to the jazz era artists is significantly different from the one that may have influenced the Stones, The Who and Zep, and neither era/urban culture is worth comparing to the inner city culture found in US cities at present. I find it hard to believe that you can't see the distinction, so it seems you're choosing to argue the semantics of "urban culture." If you have another term or nomenclature for the self-destructive, entitlement, keeping it real attitude - which communicates that college and a 9-5 job is selling out and being a celebrity, athlete or drug kingpin are the only ways to make it without betraying your neighborhood - then please provide your preferred term so we can drop the semantics, get on the same page and discuss the topic. Naziism influenced Wagner. Does that mean that national socialism is worth saving? The Taliban built some lovely mosques. Should we preserve radical Islam? A flower grows in ****. Should we roll in it? The everyday struggles of real life have always been enough to inspire great work. Even if "urban culture", as defined by OC, is systematically destroyed there will be plenty to write and sing about. Edited December 14, 2011 by Jauronimo
DC Tom Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 Oprah giving out prizes to the audience is no different that the nobleman throwing out coins to the peasants for centuries. It's ablip on the radar of the nihilistic culture you decstibe. It's a little different. The nobleman did have some responsibility for his peasants. Naziism influenced Wagner. Does that mean that national socialism is worth saving? The Taliban built some lovely mosques. Should we preserve radical Islam? A flower grows in ****. Should we roll in it? The everyday struggles of real life have always been enough to inspire great work. Even if "urban culture", as defined by OC, is systematically destroyed there will be plenty to write and sing about. Considering Wagner died in 1883, that would have been a really neat trick. The Nazis did more to destroy any semblance of historical German culture than they did to inspire creativity (how much post-modern German art do you find in the mainstream these days?) And the Taliban's existed for 15 years...I don't think they've yet built a mosque. Certainly not a classically beautiful one. They're more about destroying than creating such ostentatiousness anyway...like most radical movements, they pine for a time that never actually existed. The Islamic cultures that created such masterpieces of art, architecture, and science were more liberal than the modern Republican party. The Islamic world has produced barely anything of note since then, after those cultures were destroyed by the Mongols. Really, if you're going to pick historical analogies...at least don't be a complete idiot about them.
Juror#8 Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Larry the Cable Guy through one sentence fragment also created a multi-million dollar industry and sparked a redneck pride movement. So by J8's standards, whereby cultural significance is measured in dollar signs, Git'R'Done ranks just above the polio vaccine but well below gangster rap on the scale of human achievement. The urban culture that gave rise to the jazz era artists is significantly different from the one that may have influenced the Stones, The Who and Zep, and neither era/urban culture is worth comparing to the inner city culture found in US cities at present. I find it hard to believe that you can't see the distinction, so it seems you're choosing to argue the semantics of "urban culture." If you have another term or nomenclature for the self-destructive, entitlement, keeping it real attitude - which communicates that college and a 9-5 job is selling out and being a celebrity, athlete or drug kingpin are the only ways to make it without betraying your neighborhood - then please provide your preferred term so we can drop the semantics, get on the same page and discuss the topic. Naziism influenced Wagner. Does that mean that national socialism is worth saving? The Taliban built some lovely mosques. Should we preserve radical Islam? A flower grows in ****. Should we roll in it? The everyday struggles of real life have always been enough to inspire great work. Even if "urban culture", as defined by OC, is systematically destroyed there will be plenty to write and sing about. You're essentially arguing that the "self-destructive, entitlement, keeping it real attitude - which communicates that college and a 9-5 job is selling out and being a celebrity, athlete or drug kingpin are the only ways to make it without betraying your neighborhood" is a recent phenonmenon that didn't exist 50-70 years ago. I believe that you're incorrect. If you replace in your statement "selling out" with "impossible due to Jim Crow," and replace "celebrity and athlete," with "saxophonist or pimp" you would have made an appropriately period-specific statement. And your bias against rap music shines through. You shouldn't let it get in the way of good facts and analysis though. Your analogy was a false one. It you spent another 20 minutes amending, manipulating and supplementing your original paragraph, it would still be the best non-sequitur that I've read this week. If you looked at my original statement objectively, you'd see that my point is not as simplistic as you tried to characterize it with your "Larry the Cable Guy" gem. I'll let you work on that on your free time though. As an aside... BTW, does OC just make a point and 60-70% of the folks here flock to support it? Is this some weird cult or fetish thing? Just seems odd that there is such an echo chamber in here. So many people, from so many parts of the country, with presumably widely divergent interests, and experiences think the EXACT SAME THING about so many very complex and multi-faceted issues. Seems kinda Halle Bop. Maybe it's an acceptance thing...not too sure. Maybe there are some obedience freaks in here...like Milgram experiment types. You'd almost think that people would fly against the grain if for no other reason than for the discussion. Edited December 14, 2011 by Juror#8
DC Tom Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 BTW, does OC just make a point and 60-70% of the folks here flock to support it? Seriously? You think anyone takes the time to find a point in those verbose piles of **** he posts?
Jauronimo Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Really, if you're going to pick historical analogies...at least don't be a complete idiot about them. My fact checker took a long lunch and brought all my history books with him. My point is still valid. The Romans were outflanked by Napoleon at the battle of Gettysburg. You're essentially arguing that the "self-destructive, entitlement, keeping it real attitude - which communicates that college and a 9-5 job is selling out and being a celebrity, athlete or drug kingpin are the only ways to make it without betraying your neighborhood" is a recent phenonmenon that didn't exist 50-70 years ago. I believe that you're incorrect. If you replace in your statement "selling out" with "impossible due to Jim Crow," and replace "celebrity and athlete," with "saxophonist or pimp" you would have made an appropriately period-specific statement. Yes, if I replace all the words in my original post with new ones, I could have inferred that all urban cultures across all geographies and time periods are the same, as you have done. But that was never my intention. You defend a crumbling and self-destructive culture on the merit of the music that has risen from it. Its a poor argument. Urban culture is certainly capable of inspiring music, literature and other art without the "keeping it real" mentality, which only serves as a hindrance. A bleak or impossible outlook is not something unique to ghetto culture, its common of the human experience. Some similarity or overlap between the the culture of 1920s and 2011 does not dismiss the the fundamental distinctions or the need for change. The fact that I disagree with you should not be confused with some type devotion to another board member. I'll weigh in on the issues as they are laid out. Choosing to play the contrarian does not make you special. Edited December 14, 2011 by Jauronimo
Juror#8 Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 Somehow it doesn't prevent them from spending over $28000 per student, per year though. http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/02/dc-public-schools-129-trillion-28170.html Very good point and one that I didn't realize. I may have to re-evaluatwe my original paragraph a little bit now in consideration of these facts. I appreciate the challenge. Ok, so, this is COMPLETELY a guess, but the only thing I can think of to explain this disparity is the distinction between the affluent NW and the dilapidated SE that truncates the numbers and averages. Someone else in the area should be able to tell you as well that there FUNDAMENTALLY is a difference between the quadrants in DC. I know that Anacostia Senior High didn't spend 28,000 per student (or the equivalent in 1990s dollars) in 1992-1993 during my tenure. Very good point though.
Juror#8 Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Noted. My fact checker took a long lunch. My point is valid. Yes, if I replace all the words in my original post with new ones, I could have inferred that all urban cultures across all geographies and time periods are the same, as you have done. But that was never my intention. You're better than this. I changed nothing about the substance of your point. I changed the articulated profession and articulated reason to something a little less anachronistic. If I said that "I watched a Tarantino flick, 'Jackie Brown', I think, at a great movie theatre in Adam's Morgan in 1994 with my best friends Hunter and Thompson." And you said that "'Jackie Brown' didn't play that day, but another Tarantino flick, 'Pulp Fiction', did." Does the substitution of the movie title necessarily impact the other substantive points in my sentence (i.e. that I was there with Hunter, and Thomspson, in Adams Morgan in 1994)? Edited December 14, 2011 by Juror#8
3rdnlng Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 Very good point and one that I didn't realize. I may have to re-evaluatwe my original paragraph a little bit now in consideration of these facts. I appreciate the challenge. Ok, so, this is COMPLETELY a guess, but the only thing I can think of to explain this disparity is the distinction between the affluent NW and the dilapidated SE that truncates the numbers and averages. Someone else in the area should be able to tell you as well that there FUNDAMENTALLY is a difference between the quadrants in DC. I know that Anacostia Senior High didn't spend 28,000 per student (or the equivalent in 1990s dollars) in 1992-1993 during my tenure. Very good point though. If I remember correctly NYC spends around $18000. To be honest, this is something that needs a little research. After posting that (28000 in DC) I found another site that quoted completely different figures. I think the disparity is the old apples/oranges thing and completely different standards are being used. In time, I'll check into it.
Jauronimo Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) You're better than this. I changed nothing about the substance of your point. I changed the articulated profession and articulated reason to something a little less anachronistic. "Keeping it real" and state legislation in the form of Jim Crow are hardly equivalent. While the end results may be the same, the differences are far from subtle. One mindset was a result of systematic oppression. The current mindset is a result of a self-destructive and cancerous culture. That substitution changes the substance of my point as it compare apples to oranges. In essence you changed, "my friend and I went to the movies," to "my friend and I fornicated a porcupine." Edited December 14, 2011 by Jauronimo
3rdnlng Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 "Keeping it real" and state legislation in the form of Jim Crow are hardly equivalent. While the end results may be the same, the differences are far from subtle. One mindset was a result of systematic oppression. The current mindset is a result of a self-destructive and cancerous culture. That substitution changes the substance of my point as it compare apples to oranges. In essence you changed, "my friend and I went to the movies," to "my friend and I fornicated a porcupine." Prick on prick?
Juror#8 Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 "Keeping it real" and state legislation in the form of Jim Crow are hardly equivalent. While the end results may be the same, the differences are far from subtle. One mindset was a result of systematic oppression. The current mindset is a result of a self-destructive and cancerous culture. That substitution changes the substance of my point as it compare apples to oranges. In essence you changed, "my friend and I went to the movies," to "my friend and I fornicated a porcupine." I think that the problem is that you're presumptively ascribing characteristics to your person A and person B that presupposes the sociological outcome that you want. "I'm _______ and _______ and ________ because I'm just keeping it real." Is it that simple? Riddle me this...do you really, really, really, not think that they're both symptomatic of systematic oppression? Do you think that things happen in a vaccuum? You're not understanding my point about the hypothetical, and I'm obviously not understanding yours. Maybe that's just endemic to the world of internet debating. Seriously? You think anyone takes the time to find a point in those verbose piles of **** he posts? Lol.
BillsFanM.D. Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 .....I also agree with M.D.'s comments about the importance of strong parenting at home that supports a strong work ethic and education. But doesn't that lead back to culture? Sure does. There is (should be) no 'culture' more important than one's own family. There (family) you learn life practices, morality, attitudes, spirituality, 'right 'n wrong,' goals, critical thinking, and on and on. Unconditional parental love, accompanied with firm discipline, are the rate limiting factors in today's child rearing. We simply do not see enough of either component.
OCinBuffalo Posted December 15, 2011 Author Posted December 15, 2011 Seriously? You think anyone takes the time to find a point in those verbose piles of **** he posts? Whaaaa! Somebody else is getting attention! I think that the problem is that you're presumptively ascribing characteristics to your person A and person B that presupposes the sociological outcome that you want. "I'm _______ and _______ and ________ because I'm just keeping it real." Is it that simple? Riddle me this...do you really, really, really, not think that they're both symptomatic of systematic oppression? Do you think that things happen in a vaccuum? You're not understanding my point about the hypothetical, and I'm obviously not understanding yours. Maybe that's just endemic to the world of internet debating. Lol. Hehehe. You are done. Yes, "the system" is what I am worried about when I head to the convenient store at 3am. In fact: (NSFW) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7HHB3sDtfA "Nothing makes a _____ happier than not know the answer to your question. What's the capital of Zairre? 'I don't know that schit, I'm keeping in real'. _____s love to keep it real: real dumb". "Ted Koppel ain't never took schit from me. _____ have. Schit, you think I have 3 guns in my house cause the media outside? Oh schit Mike Wallace, Run!" "You know what's sad man? Martin Luther King stood for non-violence. Now what's Marting Luther King? A street. And I don't give a F where you are in America, if you on MLK BLVD there's some violence going down. It ain't the safest place to be. You can't call nobody and tell them you're lost on MLK. 'I'm lost, I'm on MLK' 'RUN!' 'RUN!' RUN' The media's there!" Chris Rock knows, why don't you?
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