Juror#8 Posted December 12, 2011 Author Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) I go back to '96 - that home playoff loss to the Jags, which led to Kelly retiring and the Bills 75 year search to replace him. I had great seats for that game and the weather was nice too, who knew how far down we would spiral... It was the beginning of the end when The Bills lost to Jacksonville in first round of playoffs-1996 I believe. Kelly got killed all day that day as our O-Line was horrible and had not been given the attention it needed for several years. John Fina picked at #1 was the first step in the demise of our o line-he was horrible, and Kelly retired after that day marking a 15 year search for a QB-which we still have not found. The O Line was never fixed since that day and Todd Collins began the long line of losers we stuck in at QB for the next 15 years. Great point by both of you (making the same point in consecutive posts ) Forgot about this as well. Within the next 3 years, we also lost the remainder of that Superbowl nucleus. Maybe Kelly leaving was the catalyst. After Kelly left, the QB situation was in flux causing fleeting, if any, success. The organization decided to get younger (thinking that was the solution) and decided to not maintain aging (but still productive) former superstars. Too much flux in too short a period caused a slippery slope downwards... Edited December 12, 2011 by Juror#8
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Summer of 2001: I was in a DC summer kickball league and the bills hired Tom Mordak to help "rebuild" the frnachise through the draft. That is my new favorite witch....
ganesh Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 The Polian firing was probably it, as Polian probably could have rebuilt the team after the Kelly era ended. The transition would have been made via the draft. Gimmick signings of guys like rob johnson and flutie would have been replaced by good drafting and less flashing FA signings. Polian's firing was the beginning of the franchise's "death period", and the JAX playoff loss was the end of that beginning. From '96 on, Bills have been essentially headless at QB and relatively ineffective in the front office. The WNY area being unattractive as a place to live added to it, and 15 years of bad drafting and no free agents have brought us to where we are today... absolutely nowhere and completely out of the NFL conversation. Sad but true. Need to lose out and draft a QB. This doesn't agree with what is happening in Indy. If what you said was true, the Colts would have drafted a better QB than Curtis Painter and should not have been 0-13 when Manning went down. The Patriots without Tom Brady went 11-5 with a 7th round draft pick, who since then has been struggling tremendously to be a franchise QB for the Chiefs. Polian had the choice to pick Manning. Manning was a more complete QB than Ryan and was going to be the 1st choice irrespective of what anyone will say. People give too much credit for Polian, when things fell on his plate.
Juror#8 Posted December 12, 2011 Author Posted December 12, 2011 The Polian firing was probably it, as Polian probably could have rebuilt the team after the Kelly era ended. The transition would have been made via the draft. Gimmick signings of guys like rob johnson and flutie would have been replaced by good drafting and less flashing FA signings. Polian's firing was the beginning of the franchise's "death period", and the JAX playoff loss was the end of that beginning. From '96 on, Bills have been essentially headless at QB and relatively ineffective in the front office. The WNY area being unattractive as a place to live added to it, and 15 years of bad drafting and no free agents have brought us to where we are today... absolutely nowhere and completely out of the NFL conversation. Sad but true. Need to lose out and draft a QB. You and St. Pete definitely have a point. The problem that I have with Polian's firing is that there were some 10-6, and 11-5 years post Polian...way post Polian. That doesn't mean that his departure didn't mark the beginning of the end...especially since Polian (based on his tenure) likely would have avoided the Johnson acquisition and concentrated on drafting a cornerstone guy. His leaving meant that didn't happen. Then Kelly was gone in 96. Either way, it's seeming like a lot of the responses are centering around the draft, and especially, the QB position.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 This doesn't agree with what is happening in Indy. If what you said was true, the Colts would have drafted a better QB than Curtis Painter and should not have been 0-13 when Manning went down. The Patriots without Tom Brady went 11-5 with a 7th round draft pick, who since then has been struggling tremendously to be a franchise QB for the Chiefs. Polian had the choice to pick Manning. Manning was a more complete QB than Ryan and was going to be the 1st choice irrespective of what anyone will say. People give too much credit for Polian, when things fell on his plate. Polian built superbowl contenders in buffalo, Indy and Carolina. However it happened the guy gets results. Pats d was very good when Brady went down. Today that team would be toast without him based on the defense I see in ne. Maybe polians formula involves tanking one season... But I can't think of too many gm's outside of Pittsburg with a better track record over the last 20 years.
Captain Hindsight Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Near as I can figure, I was in the womb the last time they won a championship so I guess it all went wrong when I was born. You bastard!
Rubes Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 When wade Phillips benches doug flutie for the playoff game vs the titans because rob had a decent game vs the colts the last game of the year in which the colts played their backups cuz they had the conference locked up. Bingo.
Juror#8 Posted December 12, 2011 Author Posted December 12, 2011 Polian built superbowl contenders in buffalo, Indy and Carolina. However it happened the guy gets results. Pats d was very good when Brady went down. Today that team would be toast without him based on the defense I see in ne. Maybe polians formula involves tanking one season... But I can't think of too many gm's outside of Pittsburg with a better track record over the last 20 years. Ozzie Newsome has had a nice run, but not for 20 years.
clayboy54 Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 October 28, 1959... Ralph Wilson established the Buffalo Bills. Downhill from there!
bananathumb Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Not sure where I was when Bill Belichick was hired by Parcells as DC for the NY Giants, but that decision destroyed our last real chance to win A Super Bowl. We didn't have much of a chance in the next three and we know what it's been like since. I was going to say Norwood's wide right kick, but it was Bill & Bill's defensive outsmarting of the other Bills that made the kick so crucial. The Two Bills have also frustrated the True Bills ever since in many ways. Just a shot at an answer to the question about TTP.
billsfan714 Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 Im with the Polian firing too, one of the greatest GMs of the last 25 years and the Bills get rid of him.
bowery4 Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 It was right after coach Lou had his spat with Cookie
Wilson's Ears Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 October 28, 1959... Ralph Wilson established the Buffalo Bills. Downhill from there!
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 October 28, 1959... Ralph Wilson established the Buffalo Bills. Downhill from there! I know the op was looking for a catalyst moment, a period in time when while maybe the wheels hadn't come off the bus, the mechanic in charge forgot to double check that the lug nuts were tightened and thereafter it was only a matter of time. However, I think this statement is pretty accurate. I have long shied away from the "Ralph is cheap crowd" because it's far too simple an explanation for a business as complex as professional football. The front office spends money, cash to cap philosophy or not, and you only need to review several of the posts on any given day as casual fans bellyache about the exhorbitant salary extension given to ***** or the money wasted on draft selection *****. Money aside, the one constant on this team has been RW. And during all these years, yeah, we had some good runs, but I have to ask myself---Is it because of RW, or in spite of him? I think it's possible to develop a culture of losing, a perspective on life or business that more often than not leads to a bad result, and I think RW has done just that. To be accurate, I think RW is a pretty astute businessman--and we can argue about the 'can't miss' NFL ownership deal but that's a different subject---but a not-very-good manager of a football team looking to consistently win games. The Polian departure is as good as example as any. The team Polian oversaw was one of the most exciting teams in the history of the game. We weren't too far removed from the days when the team was quite bad. You'd think an owner could rationalize keeping a guy like that at the helm for the good of the business, and for the good of the business of winning football games. Heck, why would you want to risk going back to incompetence when victory is so much fun (and, I'd imagine, profitable)? You'd think a leader of a franchsie could rationalize putting up with personality quirks or other disagreements. Ours could not. Unfortunately, the stench of losing will stay until there is a sustained commitment to winning and more importantly, a sustained period of acutally winning.
mabden Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 Music City Miracle and the subsequent release of Reed, Smith and Thomas. Not saying the moves were unreasonable given the mileage the players had...... but their collective release (considering their historical status as Bills), in the shadow of a devastating loss, began this epic fail. I was on call during my residency when the forward pass occurred. That also contributes to my own personal suffering. I agree that the MCM was the turning point for this franchise's demise. Maybe not directly, but the MCM combined with Wade Phillips mishandling of the Flutie/Johnson debacle, led to the eventual firing of Wade and brought us Tom Donahoe with his string of worthless coaches and draft picks. Then Ralph sort of woke up and desperately hired Marv to return us to some sense of order. Marv may have done that, but I think he really wanted to coach, and was in over his head as GM. He drafts were poor as was his choice for Juran as coach. Nix/Gailey have a lot of work to do to make up for 10 years of futility. I see positive things happening with those 2 driving the franchise, although this current losing streak is concerning and disheartening. The biggest concern I have right now is how do you instill a winning attitude amongst the players, in the face of such horrible loses.
CookieG Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 Not quite. Just trying to determine the genesis of the Bills' misfortunes. We talk about the current problems, and how long the franchise has been suffering. But little discussion is paid to the actual beginning instance - the "inciting incident" if you will. Outside of calling me sophomoric, do you have any thoughts on the question? Well, if it helps, I can give you the genesis of the Clippers' misfortunes. Hint: they were in Buffalo at the the time. Google "John Y. Brown"
Marv Levy Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 1991, West Seneca NY, Super Bowl XXV, party at my house, watching Wide Right on TV. Haven't won a damn thing since!
bbb Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 Polian does seem like the beginning of the end, but I think the departure of John Butler was the real end. He kept the Bills contenders for 6-7 years after Polian. Brought in great free agents - Ted, Spielman, Bryce Paup, etc........Good drafting up until his last one when he was going out the door.
Orton's Arm Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) Not quite. Just trying to determine the genesis of the Bills' misfortunes. We talk about the current problems, and how long the franchise has been suffering. But little discussion is paid to the actual beginning instance - the "inciting incident" if you will. Outside of calling me sophomoric, do you have any thoughts on the question? The defining event was the firing of Polian. Period. Yes, the Bills continued to win for a few years after that. It wasn't as though anyone in the organization was prepared to say, "Polian is gone, let's immediately cut every player he ever drafted." The nucleus Polian had assembled provided dividends years after his firing. John Butler's first draft occurred in 1992. Butler's first round pick was used on John Fina. Fina was consistently among the bottom third of starting LTs. Other than him and a (somewhat) decent safety (Kurt Schultz), the Bills came up empty in Butler's first draft. Butler's second draft was even more disappointing. The first round pick was squandered on a DB--on Thomas Smith, in fact. He left Buffalo after seven years. Their second round pick was used on John Parella, DE. Parella had a very good career--for the San Diego Chargers. He only spent one year in Buffalo before he and the Bills parted ways. Other than those two guys, nobody in particular was drafted that year. In 1994, Butler used his first round pick on Jeff Burris--a CB who immediately went first-contract-and-out. Other than Burris, the only notable acquisition that draft was Sam Rogers, a reasonably solid LB. In 1995, Butler added a Pro Bowl OG in the form of Ruben Brown. He also added another reasonably solid LB in John Holecek. 1996 was a better draft than usual for Butler: he added Eric Moulds (WR) in the first round, and Jay Riemersma (TE) in the 7th. In 1997 Butler returned to form: every player from that draft was a bust. You could also say the same thing about the 1998 draft, although Sam Cowart would have been a very good player if it hadn't been for that injury. The first round pick of the 1999 draft was used on Antowain Winfield, a very good CB who was allowed to go first-contract-and-out. The second round pick was used on Peerless Price--a WR whom the Bills would later trade away for Atlanta's first round pick. Other than those two, nobody good was picked that year. The 2000 draft had more busts than a Victoria's Secret catalog. That represented nine years of drafting. Nine years during which the core Polian had put together grew gradually older, then retired. Butler added only two new core players: Eric Moulds and Ruben Brown. One could also argue that Butler deserves credit for having added Antoine Winfield, and that the blame for Winfield's early departure rests with TD. However, Polian allowed other first round CBs--especially Burris--to leave Buffalo in a real hurry. Had Butler still been the GM when Winfield's first contract expired, would Butler have been as casual about Winfield's departure as he had been about Burris's? Using nine years' worth of drafts to obtain a good WR and OG, and some solid ILBs and a TE, is not the way to "reBilld" the team of the Polian era. Butler's drafts brought the Bills precisely nothing at the following crucial positions: QB, LT, NT, RDE (3-4), pass rushing OLB (3-4). It was Butler's failure to find talent at these positions, in combination with the critical injury to Paup, which most greatly contributed to the 3-13 season of 2001. The firing of Polian set the stage for roughly two decades of subsequent failure. Edited December 13, 2011 by Edwards' Arm
DocLawless Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 When wade Phillips benches doug flutie for the playoff game vs the titans because rob had a decent game vs the colts the last game of the year in which the colts played their backups cuz they had the conference locked up. For some reason nobody ever talks about that but it was def one of the worst decisions in franchise history. Never understood it. Flutie took over for them after Johnson led them to an 0-3 start and got hurt and then took them to the playoffs. It was also the same year the bills lost to the patriots in foxboro because they got flagged for pass interference on a last second hail Mary. The whole bills team left the field before the game was actually over because of the ridiculousness of the call. Either way i was 12 years old and still remember how upset I was of hearing on espn that Johnson was starting over flutie against the titans just because johnson played well in the throwaway game against the colts that we decided to sit our starting qb (flutie) so he would not get injured. Only the bills would make a stupid decision like that. Flutie was a winner. No Jim Kelly but still a winner
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