San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 That would be the same number of "game winning drives" as Aaron Rodgers. Tom Brady on the other hand has 33 "game winning drives" and Drew Brees has 18 What does that tell us? Not much without context huh? How many games were they behind and had an opportunity to come back? What percentage of times did they succeed or fail in those situations? It's really kind of a stupid stat without statistical context. I could say I won 5 billiards championships at the corner bar but if only 5 people enter the tournament each year and I've been playing in the tournament for 35 years… As far as "competitive greatness" is concerned from a language standpoint, I guess it's fine. Really there are dozens of equivalent phrases we've been using for many decades so I suppose it's refreshing to hear an old concept expressed in a fresh way.
#34fan Posted December 9, 2011 Author Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) I appreciate the information but I was asking the question rhetorically. I know what his answer will be. It's the proverbial "crunch time" answer. It's a very myopic view of the game and what it takes to win. Winning QBs in the history of the game won most of those games long before it ever even got to "crunch time." Their "competitive greatness" was usually on display right from the opening kickoff. People with a good understanding of competition in athletic contests fully understand that. There's just more to it than the romanticized "fourth quarter comeback" but it creates legends and makes for good stories. And I think Tebow is a great story. It's just that sooner or later he's going to have to show his "competitive greatness" earlier in games. When it matters just as much. GO BILLS!!! I appreciate you taking the time to tell me what I was thinking. For a rookie mind-reader it was a fairly good attempt. Now allow me to give my personal definition of "When it matters most in a game." The truth is, it's slightly different for every athlete. "When it matters most", is the moment when you have the opportunity to elevate your team, and change the way you are percieved as a player. Every team has obstacles to it's success in every game. Some more than others. IMO what makes a player, or coach, competitively great is'nt how they START with what's available, -It's how they FINISH despite what's missing. So, when exactly does it "matter most" in a game? To competitively great people the answer to that is always. That's why they typically make the most of their opportunities. Scoring, or otherwise. And another thing... Call me crazy, but I LIVE for those legends, and fourth-quarter comebacks. Take those away, and you have exactly what Bobo has. A bunch of stats that, however encouraging, ultimately translate into hopelessness, and losses on the field. I'll take my romaticized legends any day over that. Edited December 9, 2011 by #34fan
reddogblitz Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 6 total game winning drives in his career, 5 with the Bills (should be 6, if SJ catches the ball against NYJ). Should be 7 if SJ also catches the one against Pittsburgh last year.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Not much without context huh? How many games were they behind and had an opportunity to come back? What percentage of times did they succeed or fail in those situations? It's really kind of a stupid stat without statistical context. This, but also, if the QB and the offense are taking care of business early in the game, and the defense is doing its job to get the stop, there is no need of last-minute heroics. I believe that's the reason why Rodgers has relatively few of these "competitive greatness" indicators. Tebow would need less "competitive greatness" if he could throw more completions earlier in the game.
#34fan Posted December 9, 2011 Author Posted December 9, 2011 This, but also, if the QB and the offense are taking care of business early in the game, and the defense is doing its job to get the stop, there is no need of last-minute heroics. I believe that's the reason why Rodgers has relatively few of these "competitive greatness" indicators. Tebow would need less "competitive greatness" if he could throw more completions earlier in the game. Rodgers was a guy who never gave up. For years Favre's presence blocked his ambitions as a starter. The Pack made their superbowl run with a bunch of injured guys, (including what were at the time) two key offensive peices in Finley and Grant. You guys keep using terms like "crunchtime" and "heroics" It's not about any of that. It's about the way certain players respond to adversity. Whatever form that may take. These responses are what identifies them as leaders. Contrary to popular belief, leaders aren't annointed by coaches. -They aren't just guys who tell other guys what to do. The most effective ones show their worth by the example they set to their teammates. In this fashion, leadership is just one of the many good side effects of competitive greatness.
K-9 Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Rodgers was a guy who never gave up. For years Favre's presence blocked his ambitions as a starter. The Pack made their superbowl run with a bunch of injured guys, (including what were at the time) two key offensive peices in Finley and Grant. You guys keep using terms like "crunchtime" and "heroics" It's not about any of that. It's about the way certain players respond to adversity. Whatever form that may take. These responses are what identifies them as leaders. Contrary to popular belief, leaders aren't annointed by coaches. -They aren't just guys who tell other guys what to do. The most effective ones show their worth by the example they set to their teammates. In this fashion, leadership is just one of the many good side effects of competitive greatness. Now this I can agree with. And you are blind if you think this criteria doesn't/hasn't applied to Fitz as his career has developed. He's the epitome of what you espouse here, especially with regard to how his teammates feel about him. GO BILLS!!!
#34fan Posted December 9, 2011 Author Posted December 9, 2011 Now this I can agree with. And you are blind if you think this criteria doesn't/hasn't applied to Fitz as his career has developed. He's the epitome of what you espouse here, especially with regard to how his teammates feel about him. GO BILLS!!! Hey, I'm glad the team likes Fitz. I think Fitz can be a good source of information for the younger guys. I think his presence (as a backup) on this team will be important to the offense during any transitional periods. But that's all I see him as. -A No.2 guy on our roster. Personally, I don't see any shame in that. All good teams need reliable backup at QB. Someone who can step into a game and hand the ball off without incident. I don't see Fitz as anything more than that. If he proves me wrong, I'll embrace it. I don't think he will though. IMO What you see with Fitz is what you get.
Dr. K Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 I appreciate you taking the time to tell me what I was thinking. For a rookie mind-reader it was a fairly good attempt. Now allow me to give my personal definition of "When it matters most in a game." The truth is, it's slightly different for every athlete. "When it matters most", is the moment when you have the opportunity to elevate your team, and change the way you are percieved as a player. Every team has obstacles to it's success in every game. Some more than others. IMO what makes a player, or coach, competitively great is'nt how they START with what's available, -It's how they FINISH despite what's missing. So, when exactly does it "matter most" in a game? To competitively great people the answer to that is always. That's why they typically make the most of their opportunities. Scoring, or otherwise. And another thing... Call me crazy, but I LIVE for those legends, and fourth-quarter comebacks. Take those away, and you have exactly what Bobo has. A bunch of stats that, however encouraging, ultimately translate into hopelessness, and losses on the field. I'll take my romaticized legends any day over that. So.... it's different for different athletes.... because "when it matters most" can't be measured..... but it depends on when you can change how you are perceived... because every team has obstacles... some more than others... a touchdown at the start doesn't count as much as a touchdown at the finish.... but it always matters.... but it's not about scoring.... because stats don't matter..... because stats translate into hopelessness and losses..... I think I've got it now. To sum up: IT'S COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE, CAN'T BE MEASURED, AND IS DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON THE PLAYER. Makes perfect sense when you put it that way.
#34fan Posted December 9, 2011 Author Posted December 9, 2011 I think I've got it now. To sum up: IT'S COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE, CAN'T BE MEASURED, AND IS DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON THE PLAYER. Do you work in the Bills Front office?
Dr. K Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Do you work in the Bills Front office? No. I just have a functioning forebrain. I'm prepared to criticize Fitzpatrick's play. For instance, his underthrows on two intercepted passes that would probably have been touchdowns cost the Bills the Giants game. But that's a rational argument, not the moonshine you are selling.
#34fan Posted December 10, 2011 Author Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) No. I just have a functioning forebrain. I'm prepared to criticize Fitzpatrick's play. For instance, his underthrows on two intercepted passes that would probably have been touchdowns cost the Bills the Giants game. But that's a rational argument, not the moonshine you are selling. Good News: Your brain functions, Doc. Bad News: -It's in reverse. I'm not annoyed, by you K, I'm impressed. You seem to really excel at getting things wrong. Take "competitive greatness" for example. You were SO CLOSE to getting it, and then you inexplicably derailed yourself right on the cusp of a breakthrough. That takes talent. The exact kind of talent that's alive and well at One Bills Drive. So you see, I had to ask. But hey, you're not the first guy to suffer from a complete and utter lack of vision. I wish you the best. If I were you though, I wouldn't bank on it. Btw, Moonshine distilling is a multi-million dollar a year industry. But since you can't see it, I guess it must not exist either. Edited December 10, 2011 by #34fan
#34fan Posted December 12, 2011 Author Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) Well, looks like another win for Tebow & Co.... Still wanna fight me on this issue people? I was AT the game, and it's a miracle there were not more that two INT's. Yah, the defense sucked, and the secodary was woeful. Still, what does that have to do with the inability of our Offense to score points? It's up to you now, fans. Start sounding off at home games. Let the FO know exactly how you feel. It's either that, or keep losing indefinitely. R-G-3! R-G-3! R-G-3! Relax, It sounds much better when chanted loudly at home games. Edited December 12, 2011 by #34fan
NewEra Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3 RG3
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