Oxrock Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) CBS News I said this months ago over on the board that will not be mentioned now defunct political/election subforum of the anything but forum.: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.PICTURES: ATF "Gunwalking" scandal timeline In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent. ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information. On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious: "Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks." On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case." This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles." The Gun Dealers' Quandary Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to. Sometimes it was against the gun dealer's own best judgment. Read the email In April, 2010 a licensed gun dealer cooperating with ATF was increasingly concerned about selling so many guns. "We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys," writes the gun dealer to ATF Phoenix officials, "(W)e were hoping to put together something like a letter of understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us down the road for selling these items." Read the email ATF's group supervisor on Fast and Furious David Voth assures the gun dealer there's nothing to worry about. "We (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail." Two months later, the same gun dealer grew more agitated. "I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in the wrong hands...I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents (sic) safety because I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents (sic) safety that protect our country." "It's like ATF created or added to the problem so they could be the solution to it and pat themselves on the back," says one law enforcement source familiar with the facts. "It's a circular way of thinking." The Justice Department and ATF declined to comment. ATF officials mentioned in this report did not respond to requests from CBS News to speak with them. The "Demand Letter 3" Debate The two sides in the gun debate have long clashed over whether gun dealers should have to report multiple rifle sales. On one side, ATF officials argue that a large number of semi-automatic, high-caliber rifles from the U.S. are being used by violent cartels in Mexico. They believe more reporting requirements would help ATF crack down. On the other side, gun rights advocates say that's unconstitutional, and would not make a difference in Mexican cartel crimes. Two earlier Demand Letters were initiated in 2000 and affected a relatively small number of gun shops. Demand Letter 3 was to be much more sweeping, affecting 8,500 firearms dealers in four southwest border states: Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. ATF chose those states because they "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico." The reporting requirements were to apply if a gun dealer sells two or more long guns to a single person within five business days, and only if the guns are semi-automatic, greater than .22 caliber and can be fitted with a detachable magazine. On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug gangs." Reaction Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) is investigating Fast and Furious, as well as the alleged use of the case to advance gun regulations. "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals of a long gun reporting requirement. But, we've learned from our investigation that reporting multiple long gun sales would do nothing to stop the flow of firearms to known straw purchasers because many Federal Firearms Dealers are already voluntarily reporting suspicious transactions. It's pretty clear that the problem isn't lack of burdensome reporting requirements." On July 12, 2011, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) wrote Attorney General Eric Holder, whose Justice Department oversees ATF. They asked Holder whether officials in his agency discussed how "Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities." So far, they have not received a response. CBS News asked the Justice Department for comment and context on ATF emails about Fast and Furious and Demand Letter 3, but officials declined to speak with us. "In light of the evidence, the Justice Department's refusal to answer questions about the role Operation Fast and Furious was supposed to play in advancing new firearms regulations is simply unacceptable," Rep. Issa told CBS News. . Certain members said it couldn't be that at all. Speaking of those members, where have the lawyers gone? Ace of Spades Hq has been following this all summer. Still looking for anyone in the media to vigorously question an official on the goal of this operation.We armed up Mexican Drug Barons, who used the guns to kill 300 people, making this a very murderous foreign covert operation, and no one in the media really seems curious as to the actual goal sought. Edited December 7, 2011 by Oxrock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinga Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Hey Ox!!! My guess is those "lawyers" may have found a job, and finally been told that everything they learned in law school was bull... Or maybe that job they got is at McDonald's or WallMart.... Isn't it disgusting how predictably this story was, and is, playing out??? I know the focus is on Holder, and the move to force him to resign, but as for me, that ain't good enough.... The more this plays out, and the more people involved in this entire mess, AND the cover up, every single one of them needs to be prosecuted fully... none of this taking away a birthday, or resign crap!!!! People are being killed because of a botched, politically motivated, entrapment program gone bad... Too many violations of the very laws the "justice" department is supposed to enforce... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxrock Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Hey Ox!!! My guess is those "lawyers" may have found a job, and finally been told that everything they learned in law school was bull... Or maybe that job they got is at McDonald's or WallMart.... Isn't it disgusting how predictably this story was, and is, playing out??? I know the focus is on Holder, and the move to force him to resign, but as for me, that ain't good enough.... The more this plays out, and the more people involved in this entire mess, AND the cover up, every single one of them needs to be prosecuted fully... none of this taking away a birthday, or resign crap!!!! People are being killed because of a botched, politically motivated, entrapment program gone bad... Too many violations of the very laws the "justice" department is supposed to enforce... Believe me, I know it goes higher that Holder. But every one is afraid of accusing the first black President of a crime of any kind. Obama: “I’m working on gun control under the radar” That was back in May 2011: Plans include enacting restrictions via executive order, bypassing Congress Jim and Sarah Brady by Jack Minor While the Obama administration said it is committed to gun rights, a gun control advocate has spilled the beans, saying Obama is using stealth to work on firearms restrictions. The did a story on Steve Croley, the White House gun control czar. Croley is considered to be an expert on regulation and tort law. His approach to gun control appears to be a regulatory one. According to the article, Jim and Sarah Brady visited Capital Hill on March 30, the 30th anniversary of the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan; to push for a ban on "large magazines." The couple reportedly were meeting with press secretary, Jay Carney, when, according to Sarah Brady, the President came in. She said the President told her he wanted to talk about gun control and "fill us in that it was very much on his agenda." She went on to say Obama told her, "I just want you to know that we are working on it. We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar." The statement reinforces an article in the Huffington Post describing how the administration is exploring ways to bypass Congress and enact gun control through executive action. The Department of Justice reportedly is holding meetings discussing the White House's options for enacting regulations on its own or through adjoining agencies and departments. "Administration officials said talk of executive orders or agency action are among a host of options that President Barack Obama and his advisers are considering. " Dudley Brown, Executive Director of the National Association of Gun rights and Colorado's Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, says he is not surprised to hear the President is trying to unilaterally enact gun control regulations. "It’s clear that President Obama and Sarah Brady have been using the ATF to enact what they can’t get through Congress: a ban on the importation of self defense shotguns, new reporting requirements for multiple rifle sales, and the attempt to smuggle firearms across the border to Mexican gang members are just a few examples." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Were all screwed with our power hungry bureaucratic government. I am becoming more of a conservative libertarian by the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxrock Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) DECEMBER 8, 2011 John Hinderaker: Was Fast And Furious All About Gun Control? "We certainly want to be fair to the Obama administration officials who were involved in Fast and Furious. But a fundamental question has never been answered: why in the world did the Obama administration not just allow AK-47s and other weapons to be shipped across the border to Mexican drug gangs, but encourage and even finance such transactions, over the objections of jittery gun shop owners and its own veteran agents? If the Obama administration wasn't trying to set up an argument for more gun control, then what was it trying to do?" Ann Althouse: "If Hinderaker's conclusion seems extreme, consider that it could be easily refuted by a clear statement from the Obama administration disclosing the true and legitimate purpose. The absence of such a statement propels us toward the extreme conclusion." Hey Obama, I'm Trying To Give You The Benefit of the Doubt On The Worst Possible Reading On Fast & Furious... Sensenbrenner Threatens Impeachment Hearings If Holder Doesn't Start Complying With Information Requests But because you brazenly refuse to say why you mounted a massive covert operation to smuggle guns to Mexican killers (resulting, predictably, in 300 murders), some other people are going to keep leaning towards the only explanation put before them. Holder Is Testifying... We're well into it (it began at 9:30) but you can view the rest of it online here. Sensenbrenner threatened Holder with impeachment. The way he put it was that the impeachment procedure's power to compel documents and testimony is plenary and not subject to the department's claims of privilege, and if Holder won't start telling the truth, what choice does he have? Now In Recess. I think questioning will continue at 1:15. Edited December 8, 2011 by Oxrock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Is this Obama's Watergate?... http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/12/01/breaking-news-on-fast-and-furious-obama-knew-in-may-2010/ It all starts with Obama and Holder not liking the gun control laws here in America. So with supreme power, politically motivated, and in the hopes of changing the laws, they hatch a plan to sell a couple of thousand to the most dangerous and criminal gun users on the planet? One of which was used to kill a government agent? How many other people have been killed by these guns? Either this is illegal or our country is basically toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Is this Obama's Watergate?... http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/12/01/breaking-news-on-fast-and-furious-obama-knew-in-may-2010/ It all starts with Obama and Holder not liking the gun control laws here in America. So with supreme power, politically motivated, and in the hopes of changing the laws, they hatch a plan to sell a couple of thousand to the most dangerous and criminal gun users on the planet? One of which was used to kill a government agent? How many other people have been killed by these guns? Either this is illegal or our country is basically toast. So your basis for that is that a Deputy AG who made a PowerPoint for some other reason met with Obama four times in May of 2010, and we don't know what the discussed...therefore Obama's guilty of committing a crime. And the fact we can't prove it proves it's a government cover-up at the highest levels! (Just in case you're too dense to notice...I'm mocking you, you shitmudgeon.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whateverdude Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) So your basis for that is that a Deputy AG who made a PowerPoint for some other reason met with Obama four times in May of 2010, and we don't know what the discussed...therefore Obama's guilty of committing a crime. And the fact we can't prove it proves it's a government cover-up at the highest levels! (Just in case you're too dense to notice...I'm mocking you, you shitmudgeon.) You can delegate authority but you cannot delegate your responsibility. Edited December 8, 2011 by whateverdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 So your basis for that is that a Deputy AG who made a PowerPoint for some other reason met with Obama four times in May of 2010, and we don't know what the discussed...therefore Obama's guilty of committing a crime. And the fact we can't prove it proves it's a government cover-up at the highest levels! (Just in case you're too dense to notice...I'm mocking you, you shitmudgeon.) Still with the potty mouth. How old are you? I'm questioning. You do know what a question mark means, right? No one is stopping you from burying your head in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Still with the potty mouth. How old are you? I'm questioning. You do know what a question mark means, right? No one is stopping you from burying your head in the sand. Yeah, just completely objective and honest questions, totally innocent, not leading at all. Neither is suggesting that everyone else not as perspicacious as you has their head in the sand for perceiving that there's holes in your ridiculous conspiracy that you could sail a supertanker through. If it weren't for hats, your head would be completely useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Yeah, just completely objective and honest questions, totally innocent, not leading at all. Neither is suggesting that everyone else not as perspicacious as you has their head in the sand for perceiving that there's holes in your ridiculous conspiracy that you could sail a supertanker through. If it weren't for hats, your head would be completely useless. So you believe Attorney General Eric Holder's testimony in this case to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whateverdude Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 So you believe Attorney General Eric Holder's testimony in this case to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? No, but Tom will probably come back with some bull **** line like "I don't form judgment based of belief but do based on the evidence at hand". Tom could really give a **** about Fast and Furious he's just interested in playing old tape from his childhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 No, but Tom will probably come back with some bull **** line like "I don't form judgment based of belief but do based on the evidence at hand". Yeah. Evidence is bull ****. Tenuous connection of vague events, that's concrete. Tom could really give a **** about Fast and Furious he's just interested in playing old tape from his childhood. Fast and Furious was retarded. I give a !@#$ about that. I don't give a !@#$ about partisan conspiracy whackos playing the "gotcha!" blame game. The whole retarded line of reasoning in 1billsfan's link reminds me of the scene from Sneakers... Mother: They've even got photos of the guy leaving the embassy, through the back service entrance. Hey, Crease, you on? Donald Crease: Yeah, I'm on. Mother: Were you still in C.I.A. in '72? Donald Crease: Yeah, why? Mother: Did you know the Deputy Director of Planning was down in Managua, Nicaragua the day before the earthquake? Donald Crease: Now what are you saying, the C.I.A. caused the Managua earthquake? Mother: Well, I can't prove it, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Yeah. Evidence is bull ****. Tenuous connection of vague events, that's concrete. Fast and Furious was retarded. I give a !@#$ about that. I don't give a !@#$ about partisan conspiracy whackos playing the "gotcha!" blame game. The whole retarded line of reasoning in 1billsfan's link reminds me of the scene from Sneakers... DC Tom = vague event Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxrock Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/untold-story-fast-furious-scandal/t/story?id=17342034#.UGcQvZjA_Tq Often lost amid the rancor in Washington are the stories of dozens of people killed by guns that flowed south as part of the undercover operation, and later slipped out of view from U.S. officials. Univision's Investigative Unit (Univision Investiga) has identified massacres committed using guns from the ATF operation, including the killing of 16 young people attending a party in a residential area of Ciudad Juárez in January of 2010. Preview: http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/video/excerpt-univisions-fast-furious-special-17352864#.UGd7wamMNzA.mailto Sent from my iPad Edited September 29, 2012 by Oxrock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 http://abcnews.go.co...34#.UGcQvZjA_Tq Preview: http://abcnews.go.co...7wamMNzA.mailto Sent from my iPad Yeah but, Mitt Romney's tax returns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) Spanish-language network Univision will unleash a pair of bombshells on the Obama administration this weekend. According to the Daily Caller, Univision’s investigative unit is about to expose more Fast and Furious violence. “The consequences of the controversial ‘Fast and Furious’ undercover operation put in place by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in 2009 have been deadlier than what has been made public to date,” the network said. “The exclusive, in-depth investigation by Univision News’ award-winning Investigative Unit — Univision Investiga — has found that the guns that crossed the border as part of Operation Fast and Furious caused dozens of deaths inside Mexico.” Among other groups of Fast and Furious victim stories Univision says it will tell in the special to air Sunday evening at 7 p.m., is one about how “16 young people attending a party in a residential area of Ciudad Juárez in January of 2010″ were gunned down with weapons the Obama administration gave to drug cartel criminals through Fast and Furious. “Univision News’ Investigative Unit was also able to identify additional guns that escaped the control of ATF agents and were used in different types of crimes throughout Mexico,” the network added. “Furthermore, some of these guns — none of which were reported by congressional investigators — were put in the hands of drug traffickers in Honduras, Puerto Rico, and Colombia. A person familiar with the recent congressional hearings called Univision’s findings ‘the holy grail’ that Congress had been searching for.” To date, Univision is one of the few television networks to aggressively cover Fast and Furious. Univision’s anchors grilled President Obama about Fast and Furious during a town hall meeting on the network earlier in September, suggesting that Attorney General Eric Holder ought to be fired over the deadly scandal. Univision’s prominence among Spanish-speakers could have a big impact. Fast and Furious victims have mostly been Mexican citizens caught up in the drug war. . Edited September 29, 2012 by B-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Spanish-language network Univision will unleash a pair of bombshells on the Obama administration this weekend. According to the Daily Caller, Univision’s investigative unit is about to expose more Fast and Furious violence. “The consequences of the controversial ‘Fast and Furious’ undercover operation put in place by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in 2009 have been deadlier than what has been made public to date,” the network said. “The exclusive, in-depth investigation by Univision News’ award-winning Investigative Unit — Univision Investiga — has found that the guns that crossed the border as part of Operation Fast and Furious caused dozens of deaths inside Mexico.” Among other groups of Fast and Furious victim stories Univision says it will tell in the special to air Sunday evening at 7 p.m., is one about how “16 young people attending a party in a residential area of Ciudad Juárez in January of 2010″ were gunned down with weapons the Obama administration gave to drug cartel criminals through Fast and Furious. “Univision News’ Investigative Unit was also able to identify additional guns that escaped the control of ATF agents and were used in different types of crimes throughout Mexico,” the network added. “Furthermore, some of these guns — none of which were reported by congressional investigators — were put in the hands of drug traffickers in Honduras, Puerto Rico, and Colombia. A person familiar with the recent congressional hearings called Univision’s findings ‘the holy grail’ that Congress had been searching for.” To date, Univision is one of the few television networks to aggressively cover Fast and Furious. Univision’s anchors grilled President Obama about Fast and Furious during a town hall meeting on the network earlier in September, suggesting that Attorney General Eric Holder ought to be fired over the deadly scandal. Univision’s prominence among Spanish-speakers could have a big impact. Fast and Furious victims have mostly been Mexican citizens caught up in the drug war. Even more ugliness for Barry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinga Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Even more ugliness for Barry. but will it matter?? I'll bet unfortunately, this report goes no where, just like the Libya thing. We need to refer to PBO as the Teflon POTUS... thing is though, he and his team are drowning in scandals, but no one seems to care... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Apparently real investigative media has been oursourced as well. But mitt's tax returns But mitt's dog on the roof But mitt is rich But mitt shot first and aimed later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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