Revisiting ol' Whitey

[ajzepp]

I was thrilled when we signed him, and even though I felt his firing could be justified, I didn't want him to go. I know I was among very few others who also were pro-TD, but I was curious how some of you guys who wanted him gone feel about him now. Have you feelings changed? Do you want him back? Why or why not?

 

All I know is that he made the offseason very interesting, and I truly believe he would have gotten it right eventually. But again, I know I was one of very few who felt that way

Edited December 6, 2011 by ajzepp

[Buftex]

I was thrilled when we signed him, and even though I felt his firing could be justified, I didn't want him to go. I know I was among very few others who also were pro-TD, but I was curious how some of you guys who wanted him gone feel about him now. Have you feelings changed? Do you want him back? Why or why not?

 

All I know is that he made the offseason very interesting, and I truly believe he would have gotten it right eventually. But again, I know I was one of very few who felt that way

 

I agree, mostly. The guy has been out of the game a little too long at this point, but, I think he had the Bills closer to respectability than the flailing they have been doing since he was fired. I don't think many will think they want him back, but I would have liked to see him stick around another year...TD has some mis-steps, but he was pro-active, and was smart enough to cut his losses when something wasn't working. Also, I don't think people appreciate enough what a master he was at working the salary cap, without screwing the team up long term.

 

I am sure somebody will point to Bledsoe as being a bad deal, but, that is with the benefit of hindsight. It made complete sense at the time, and invigorated the fan base as much as any move could have, at that time. If the Bledsoe of 2002 could have played the same in 2003 & 2004 it would have looked like a steal. TD managed to bring in many quality FA's, but never overpaid for them. As has been said time and again, TD's biggest issue was in selecting coaches. Personally, I liked Mularkey, and wish he had stuck it out...I think he and Marv might have made a decent pairing.

 

..so if they didn't work out, the damage was negligible. I just don't have as much confidence in Buddy. TD seemed to make things happen....his predecessors seem to just let things happen. Right now, my greatest hope for the Bills future, barring an ownership change, lies with Doug Whaley.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Buftex

[KollegeStudnet]

Why are we even posting about this? This was almost 10 years ago?!

[ajzepp]

Why are we even posting about this? This was almost 10 years ago?!

 

I don't mean this as an attack against you personally, but I really hate when people post these sort of responses. I made it clear that this thread was about TD in the subject so if you're not interested, don't read it!

 

It's simply interesting to me because TD came when we were not far removed from our last playoff run. We were used to having a solid, competitive team. Well, now it's over a decade since our last playoff appearance and we're two years into yet another regime (which the jury is still out on), so I'm simply curious if anyone's perspective has changed since when TD was in charge. I keep hearing people say how this team is the worst in the NFL, how free agents will never want to come here, etc. There was not a lot of love for the guy when things didn't work out as well as we'd hoped, so it's interesting to see if anyones perspective has changed and why.

 

If you have some brilliant topic for discussion, go on and post it and lets talk about what you want to talk about. But this is something I was interested in, especially given how fickle Bills fans can be at times (myself included), hence the poll.

 

I agree, mostly. The guy has been out of the game a little too long at this point, but, I think he had the Bills closer to respectability than the flailing they have been doing since he was fired. I don't think many will think they want him back, but I would have liked to see him stick around another year...TD has some mis-steps, but he was pro-active, and was smart enough to cut his losses when something wasn't working. Also, I don't think people appreciate enough what a master he was at working the salary cap, without screwing the team up long term.

 

I am sure somebody will point to Bledsoe as being a bad deal, but, that is with the benefit of hindsight. It made complete sense at the time, and invigorated the fan base as much as any move could have, at that time. If the Bledsoe of 2002 could have played the same in 2003 & 2004 it would have looked like a steal. TD managed to bring in many quality FA's, but never overpaid for them. As has been said time and again, TD's biggest issue was in selecting coaches. Personally, I liked Mularkey, and wish he had stuck it out...I think he and Marv might have made a decent pairing.

 

..so if they didn't work out, the damage was negligible. I just don't have as much confidence in Buddy. TD seemed to make things happen....his predecessors seem to just let things happen. Right now, my greatest hope for the Bills future, barring an ownership change, lies with Doug Whaley.

 

Great point about the salary cap...I hadn't even thought of that when I was setting up the poll. We were in a bit of a mess, and he did make some tough decisions that got us back on level ground. It seems like I'm always hearing people say that FAs will never want to come here, blah blah blah, but TD brought in some pretty solid players. The biggest signing, of course, was TKO...I was so excited when we signed that guy that it was embarrassing! I know a lot of people felt that way. But I loved how active TD was, and he kept it interesting for us. Bledsoe didn't work out, and I admit I was one of the most vocal opponents of the guy after a while, but it sure was exciting when we first traded for him and started playing well.

 

I also think it bothered me a bit when Buddy Nix mentioned how at 12:01 on the start of free agency he planned to be asleep lol. I'd much rather have Whitey burning the midnight oil and getting a guy like Jeff Posey signed. Sure, he wasn't a superstar, but it showed that TD was there to make moves to improve this team.

 

Will all the talk about us pushing Maybin out the door too soon and some folks saying how it's a move we're already regretting, it's interesting to see if others feel the same way about some of the different people we've become disillusioned with over the years - in this case, ol' whitey.

[todd]

He presided over some bad drafts. He wasted first round picks. He wasn't as bad as the Russ Brandon / Marv Levy drafts, but he set us behind by years and that killed us. He was more agressive with FA, though, and we could use just a bit of that.

 

I think Nix will have things turned around eventually, however I think people have unrealistic expectations on how fast you can actually turn stuff around, especially after the McKelvin, McCargo, Whitner, Maybin drafts. You just can't recover from that in two years.

[mjt328]

Great question.

I've often looked back over the last 15 years and thought the same thing.

 

 

Donahoe was VERY AGRESSIVE.

I think he made a lot of great decisions, but when his big moves didn't work out - it really set back the franchise.

 

 

>> The Drew Bledsoe trade should have been a great move. TD cannot be blamed for it not working out. Unfortunately, when Bledsoe started to regress, it took down the whole team. It also gave our rivals in New England a jump on us in the division.

 

>> The offensive line was a huge problem during his tenure here. Part of that was Bledsoe holding the ball. Another part was that TD picks like OT Mike Williams didn't work out. Again, how could he know that a 350 lb+ Top 5 lineman would bust?

 

>> TD built a great defense through free agency (Spikes, Fletcher, Adams, Vincent, Milloy) and through the draft (Clements, Schobel, Crowell). For some reason though, this defense could NEVER get off the field on third down.

 

>> He had two chances and never got it right on hiring the right head coach. Again, Greg Williams was one of the top prospects when TD nabbed him. He just didn't work out.

 

 

Donahoe's decisions got worse the longer he was here too, which built up the ammunition to finally get rid of him.

- Drafting Willis McGahee when there were bigger needs everywhere

- Hiring a no-name like Mike Mularky

- Letting Winfield and Pat Williams walk in free agency

- Drafting JP Losman

[mjt328]

He presided over some bad drafts. He wasted first round picks. He wasn't as bad as the Russ Brandon / Marv Levy drafts, but he set us behind by years and that killed us. He was more agressive with FA, though, and we could use just a bit of that.

 

I think Nix will have things turned around eventually, however I think people have unrealistic expectations on how fast you can actually turn stuff around, especially after the McKelvin, McCargo, Whitner, Maybin drafts. You just can't recover from that in two years.

 

I don't think people have unrealistic expectations. The problem is that after almost 2 years, they are seeing NO progress in the team.

 

People keep saying things like "he's building the team the right way" by focusing on the draft and basically ignoring free agency.

The "right way" is bringing in talent that can help us win.

 

Who has Nix added to make us a better team? The best players on our team were already here when he arrived (Fitzpatrick, Fred Jackson, Steve Johnson, Wood, Levitre, Kyle Williams, George Wilson, Jairus Byrd). The players he drafted are making absolutely no impact. Most can't get on the field for an injury-prone team that finished 4-12 last year and is 5-7 this year.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

I blame TD for most of what transpired over last 10 years. Also its about time we purged the uniforms from those damn clown outfits.

[The Dog]

Yeah,

nothing constructive to say so lets dig up the past.

[Rico]

Looking back at TD's missteps, I think he was responsible for some (drafting Willis & JP) but some were a direct result of Ralph (cheap head coaches, Brain Dead Drew's extension). If he was working for a real owner, he'd probably still be here, and I have no doubt at all the team would've made the playoffs sometime during the last decade.

[Beerball]

Tom Donahoe is the son of satan and he drinks baby's (babies') blood.

 

Why are we even posting about this? This was almost 10 years ago?!

Those who do not learn from history (think Ralph Wilson) are doomed to repeat it.

[st. pete gogolak]

It's definitely worth revisiting this topic. The hiring of Tom Donahue was the Bills' last shot at greatness. Remember, the team was coming off a pretty remarkable 12 year run. The prior two GM's were Bill Polian and John Butler. Ralph was "only" 80 and still apparently interested in fielding a winning team. Donahue was a hot candidate - the supposeded architect of that model franchise the Pittsburgh Steelers. The only reason he was even available was that he had lost a power struggle with Bill Cowher. I was really excited when I heard the news.

 

Donahue came into a miserable cap situation. Butler had made a ton of mistakes with the cap (tying up big money in two quarterbacks, signing mediocrities like Jerry Ostroski and Ken Irvin to big contracts, etc.). It was clear that the team was going to go through some lean years before it came back to prominence.

 

So what was the state of the team when Donahue took over? Clearly, there were going to be some cap casualties. Ted Washington, John Holecek, Henry Jones. Still, there was definitely some talent on the team. On defense, Pat Williams, Sam Cowert and Antoine Winfield, for starters. On offense, not so much. Eric Moulds, Peerless Price. The offensive line had been a problem for at least six years and was in shambles.

 

How different things would have been if Donahue had said right from the beginning that it will take a couple of years but this team will be based on a rock solid offensive line and a rock solid defense. He didn't. For some reason, he looked to make a quick turnaround without addressing the fundamental problems facing the team.

 

First was the selection of the head coach. Donahue came from Pittsburgh, famous for running a great, agressive 3-4 ("Blitzburgh"). The Bills had been running a 3-4 since the late 1970's. The Bills certainly had the makings of an effective 3-4, even with Ted Washington gone. Pat Williams at NT, move Erik Flowers to OLB and see if can salvage his career as an OLB. Instead, he hires bombastic Gregg Williams, tries to run a 4-3 (not just a 4-3 but an aggressive "Buddy Ryan" 4-3) without the right personnel and it's been downhill ever since.

 

Donahue's first draft was his best (great move to lay off Kenyatta Walker and trade down). Nate Clements was a very good pick but if we stayed put in Round #1, we could have picked Steve Hutchinson and in Round #2 Matt Light. Those guys still might be the left side of our line today. Did Donahue even watch any tape of Rob Johnson? If he had, he would have seen a QB with some obvious skills but one who needed a lot of time in the pocket. By neglecting the OL in that first draft, it doomed any chance of Johnson being a viable QB for the team.

 

It was in year two that it really feel apart. I'm sorry but you just don't trade a #1 for anyone when you are coming off a 3-13 year. Williams of course was a huge bust (I didn't see a single scouting report that didn't have Bryant McKinnie rated higher). The 8-8 in year two was total mirage, built by beating up on weak teams.

 

In addition to Bledsoe, he started to bring in old vetrans as if the team needed one or two vets to contend for a playoff spot (Sam Adams, Lawyer Milloy, Troy Vincent). It was simply a refusal to acknoweldge fundamental problems with the team and acknowedge that it would take some time to fix the problems. What was the cause of this rush? Were the fan impatient? It seems silly now, but the fanbase at the time was used to nothing but winning and probably was impatient? An 80 year old owner who wanted to win now? Donahue himself? Who knows, but it never seemed like a three year or four year plan was in place to put the team on a solid footing to contend for the playoffs on a year in-year out basis.

 

Running out of time here so can't get into Losman fiasco, etc. but to me the real problem with Donahue was that he really wasn't a very good football guy and at the very heart of the matter, didn't know how to put a fundamentally sound, winning football team on the field.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Those who do not learn from history (think Ralph Wilson) are doomed to repeat it.

While looking for something else, I stumbled across an interesting 1994 quote (pre-Donahoe) by Ralph himself about some of his gm selections:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/28/sports/super-bowl-xxviii-papa-wilson-34-years-and-still-counting.html?ref=ralphwilsonjr

 

"Actually, for about 12 years, I had an insurance man working as general manager," Wilson said. "Then I tried a good friend for a while. Then I finally realized I had to have a football man in there, not so much as a g.m., but someone who is head of football operations. Primarily, someone who could assemble talent. I've learned that you've got to have three things in pro football -- No. 1 is players. No. 2 is an outstanding head coach. No. 3 is lots of luck."

Edited December 6, 2011 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

[Ray]

The Bills are actually MUCH better off today and better off in the Jauron years than they were with Donahoe. TD is a nice guy but his methods and way of business was a major turn-off to the fans and the teams were bad. They had one decent year in his tenure.

The Jauron years were better and that was with starting with JP Losman as your starting QB instead of a decision of either Rob Johnson or Flutie.

No thanks....TD as stated is a nice guy but he just did not do a good job running the Bills and he got 5 years to do it

[Buftex]

Looking back at TD's missteps, I think he was responsible for some (drafting Willis & JP) but some were a direct result of Ralph (cheap head coaches, Brain Dead Drew's extension). If he was working for a real owner, he'd probably still be here, and I have no doubt at all the team would've made the playoffs sometime during the last decade.

 

 

I am not one of those who thinks Willis McGahee was the worst pick ever...he has had a fairly productive career.

 

He might not have been the best pick, at that time, for the Bills, but I also think that TD, perhaps, thought he could afford the "luxury pick", because the franchise, under him, was so agressive in free-agency. I don't think the McGahee pick set the team back all that much. I do think the Losman selection was bad (and was really pissed at the time) and a result of beig over-agressive. They hoped to get Roethlisberger, didn't, so panicked...as a result, a guy that many scouts saw as no better than at third or fourth round talent, became a first round pick, as QB prospects dried up for the Bills.

 

I think they made a blunder in getting rid of Bledsoe, or not obtaining another vet, for 2005. I just don't think Losman was ready to be a starter, just yet.

 

I also think, even with the mixed results, hiring Tom Donohoe as GM was the last sound football decision that Ralph Wilson made as owner of the Bills...

 

The Bills are actually MUCH better off today and better off in the Jauron years than they were with Donahoe. TD is a nice guy but his methods and way of business was a major turn-off to the fans and the teams were bad. They had one decent year in his tenure.

The Jauron years were better and that was with starting with JP Losman as your starting QB instead of a decision of either Rob Johnson or Flutie.

No thanks....TD as stated is a nice guy but he just did not do a good job running the Bills and he got 5 years to do it

 

I disagree with this post, 100%.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Buftex

[ajzepp]

Wow, this is even more interesting than I thought...you guys are bringing up points that I had either forgotten or had never even thought about.

[KD in CA]

The draft is the most important thing to get right and the #1 responsibility for the GM. Let's go to the videotape....

 

2001: Clements/Schobel/Henry: A; Very solid

2002: Williams/Reed/DenneyWire: D; Huge wiff on Williams, Reed was not the impact player they needed.

2003: McGahee/Kelsay/Crowell/McGee: C; McGahee pick was indefensibly stupid.

2004: Evans/Losman/Anderson: D; Losman trade/pick possibly the worst FO decision ever; Evans was good, but they should have spent that pick on the needed DL impact player. Instead they waited till the next round and picked another bust in Anderson.

2005: Parrish/Everett/Preston: F; Parrish taken over Vincent Jackson. Good grief.

 

So in short, after one good draft he bombed four in a row, in the processing making mind-numbing decisions about position necessity and player value. A GPA of 1.8.

 

I had almost forgotten how bad he was....thanks for making me dredge it all up again.

Edited December 6, 2011 by KD in CT

[dpberr]

The man hasn't had a job in the NFL since Buffalo. That tells me a lot.

 

His choices for coaches were his worst decisions, above anything else. His ego got in the way....thinking that HE (and only he) could spot coordinator brilliance and he was going to show the NFL...instead of hiring guys with proven track records for a veteran-laden team.

 

I won't forgive him for Gregg Williams, THE worst era of Bills football in my opinion since I became a fan in 1986.

[UConn James]

I also think, even with the mixed results, hiring Tom Donohoe as GM was the last sound football decision that Ralph Wilson made as owner of the Bills...

 

I have to agree with this.

 

Ralph's decision to step away was the right one. Unfortunately, he gave the keys to the wrong guy.

 

And now Ralph/Littmann/Overdorf are once again penny-pinching this team into oblivion.

[BuffaloBill]

The one positive thing TD did was build a defense through FA. I still would not take him back as he was too cute and risky with his draft picks.

 

I am very worried that Nix is not doing much better. So far, only Dareus has shown himself as a solid pick. Not to say others are without merit but certainly no "big timers" in the bunch.