Wasn't that long ago ...

[PromoTheRobot]

Actually I don't remember the thread when it originally came out so, once again, you're wrong.

 

Your lack of accountability is sad and your disingenuous shock over me saying that your mentality fits the profile of a Radio Programmer to a T is laughable. Go back and read how you called out JW about how to do his job. The personal attack you levied against JW was simply because you didn't agree with him. End of story.

 

Lastly, your muddled explanation about how JW (and media) were not predicting collapse during the Bills short run of success IS ABSURD! Not sure if you noticed while you were creating your genius response but it's a 16 game season and we've seen this act before. So who's more uninformed now, the guy who bases his thoughts on history and logic or someone who bases them on emotions (it's rhetorical)?

John, if you can show me one example of me attacking jw I'd love to see it. While I am critical of lazy journalism I NEVER said jw was guilty of doing bad work. I'd also love to see any example of me not being accountable. Am I not responding to you and jw? When have I ever ducked anything on TBD?

 

Quite honestly, JC, you are getting a little carried away. You are making some crazy accusations about being a radio PD. It doesn't even make sense. You come off like your dislike of me is making you nutty.

 

PTR

Edited December 5, 2011 by PromoTheRobot

[BuffaloBaumer]

Wow, can't believe I'm going to defend PTR here, but...

The Buffalo sports media isn't in much of a position to thump its chest these days. You all have been underachieving for years - maybe not you specifically JW, but certainly as a group. There is very little meaningful, serious reporting on the Bills and Sabres. No one seems willing to ask the tough questions of Ralph and his cronies, for fear of being exiled from the small circle of team insiders. Honestly, the media has lagged almost as much as the Bills have over the last 15 years or so. And to make matters worse, many of you seem extremely thin-skinned when it comes to the slightest notion of criticism. It didn't take much to drive Tim Graham away from this site, and this thread is more of the same. You know what? Do a better job, be a bit more honest and rigorous in yoru reporting, and you'll command more respect. With the time it took to sift through old posts in order to respond to some perceived slight from an anonymous internet poster from months ago, you could've written a serious article about the pervasive mismanagement that has dogged this franchise for decades. Like, the fact that they only make roster moves to sell season tickets in July and August, and seem perfectly content with a late-season nosedive because the key revenues have already been pocketed. The story practically writes itself, yet for years has been almost completely unwritten...

 

Man, if this is not the truth, I don't know what is. If I could get that damn mic for one day to ask a few questions, I don't think I would be nearly as POd about this team as I am now.

[Búfalo Blanco]

Wow. Just wow.

Aren't you the guy who comes on here trashing the board periodically about posters who lack class and make (what you deem) unjustified personal attacks?

Find what you bring, maybe?

 

Chan Gailey said it best after the first several wins. As I recall it was something to the effect of, there are some who thought we'd be a bad team, and we aren't as bad as they thought.

Now that we've won, some are putting us on a pedestal, and we don't belong there either.

 

Seems about right. Me, I thought the Bills lacked depth and could not sustain many injuries esp. on OL and D. And I thought the D sucked even when we were winning.

 

Call me delusional if you like, but I think Promo's post that you dredged up still has some relevance:

I can understand the national media has 31 other teams to cover and the Bills have been such an afterthought that few if any would bother to take a close look at us. But how do reporters, who's job it is to cover camp and practices, talk to players and coaches, etc, be so dead wrong on this team's prospects going into the season? Seriously, if all of you are so "shocked" by what you saw, what the f**k do you do all day?

 

The media seemed to totally miss on predicting the Bill's early success, and then (with the injuries mounting) most missed on reporting their slide. This isn't unique to Buffalo, though. When I travel, and have the chance to watch cable and NFL network and such, I'm amazed by how shallow and lacking in depth/solid football understanding most of the media coverage is these days. It seems one used to both love and understand the game to be a sportswriter and football pundit, now all one needs is sarcasm and the ability to look good in a suit.

 

Coming here to crow "I told you so" the day after the Bill's playoff hopes go down for the 12th straight year doesn't seem to change that, it just seems classless.

 

 

 

Wow, can't believe I'm going to defend PTR here, but...

 

The Buffalo sports media isn't in much of a position to thump its chest these days. You all have been underachieving for years - maybe not you specifically JW, but certainly as a group. There is very little meaningful, serious reporting on the Bills and Sabres. No one seems willing to ask the tough questions of Ralph and his cronies, for fear of being exiled from the small circle of team insiders. Honestly, the media has lagged almost as much as the Bills have over the last 15 years or so. And to make matters worse, many of you seem extremely thin-skinned when it comes to the slightest notion of criticism. It didn't take much to drive Tim Graham away from this site, and this thread is more of the same. You know what? Do a better job, be a bit more honest and rigorous in yoru reporting, and you'll command more respect. With the time it took to sift through old posts in order to respond to some perceived slight from an anonymous internet poster from months ago, you could've written a serious article about the pervasive mismanagement that has dogged this franchise for decades. Like, the fact that they only make roster moves to sell season tickets in July and August, and seem perfectly content with a late-season nosedive because the key revenues have already been pocketed. The story practically writes itself, yet for years has been almost completely unwritten...

 

 

I think what jw meant to imply was that the media knew all along that Fred Jackson would be on pace for 1,600 yards and a Pro Bowl nod only before getting cut down due to injury.

 

They all knew that Kyle Williams (the agreed upon heart and soul of our defense) would be stuck on the shelf after week 6.

 

They all knew that in spite of the talent that exists on our roster, and the heart that our players showed early on, the universe WOULD come around and bite Buffalo in its big fat a$$, like it always does.

 

That's the media's job, right? To predict based on an intuition derived from the forces of the cosmos. TRUTH.

 

Rather than regurgitate what has already been said, the above posts are sufficient replies to this thread...

 

I'd consider this, John... Most talented journalists take criticism in stride, and perhaps consider what is being said. Not the b.s. and immature trolling that we see these days.. that should be completely ignored by true professionals. But the real questions about the media "short-changing" the fans such as Coach Tuesday's comment about not asking tough questions of Ralph Wilson and others are what is valid here. You can beat your chest and scream "I was right! I was right!" about the win/loss record all you like... that is very subjective in the complexities as to why the season turned the way it did for Buffalo. However, it is the same ol' tired, made to formula ways in which the Buffalo sports media (and most media for that matter) continues to report that should be considered here. Its easy to do it that way, I know, and collect a paycheck... and attack fans on a message board about win/loss predictions. But perhaps asking about the true concerns as to why this continues to happen to the people at the root of it all is what a real journalist should do..? I don't know... just a thought. Or we could continue with the same ol' monotonous business as usual and let the wheel go round and round... There's a prediction I know will be correct.

[C.Biscuit97]

1. Hard to argue with a reasonable post.

 

2. I still believe Clausen can be a good QB and I don't mind saying it. LeFevour on the other hand...

 

3. Let's not forget the point of this post though. Promotional Robot attacked JW for simply having a different opinion than him. All JW did was give an honest assesment of the Bills (turns out he was right) then reminded Promotional to think before you speak. But Promotional Robot can't even muster up a bit of humility to say he was wrong (WHICH HE CLEARLY WAS). This isn't about being positive or negative when it comes to the Bills. It's about acting like a child and Promotional does that better than anyone on these boards.

 

 

Fair enough. But jsut stop with Clausen. He may have been the worst starting QB in the NFL history. He completeld 52.5% of his passes at 5.21 ypa, and threw 3 tds in 13 games!!! http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13198/jimmy-clausen Cam Newton with essential the same team is re-writing the records books.

 

Just man up and send me my beer. And since I'm feeling charitable, you can keep one for yourself.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Fair enough. But jsut stop with Clausen. He may have been the worst starting QB in the NFL history. He completeld 52.5% of his passes at 5.21 ypa, and threw 3 tds in 13 games!!! http://espn.go.com/n...8/jimmy-clausen Cam Newton with essential the same team is re-writing the records books.

 

Just man up and send me my beer. And since I'm feeling charitable, you can keep one for yourself.

 

Football talk! I can do football talk!

 

(raises right eyebrow) as opposed to Tim Tebow who completed 50% of his passes last year, and who is completing a mighty 47.5% this year? (but winning...)

 

No diss on Newton - amazing athlete. Facts are, Cam Newton has thrown more INTs than TDs, is 60.8% completion, and has a QB rating of 82.

His team can thank the loss of Manning and the collapse of the Rams for their trip out of the cellar, along with the Schedule Gods who gave them the Colts, Freeman-less Buc, John Beck, and the hapless Jaguars.

 

Questions:

1) if we were 4-8 and our QB had the above stats, what would we be saying about him? (yeah man, he can throw, but he can't win?)

2) if we improved from 2-14 to 5-11 after drafting Magical Franchise QB, what we be saying about that?

3) (when Cam played Jax, did he secretly say "how 'bout that pre-draft hype, Blaine-boy)?"

[Delete This Account]

WTF is that???? Man I never knew I got that far up your butt!! You are almost as bad as Wawrow at taking stuff personally. I finally had the chance to review that thread and I think John took something I said about the media in general and turned it into what he considered a personal attack.

 

In fact there is nothing, NOTHING in that thread I don't agree with now, even after a 5 game losing streak. In fact if anything, the 5 losses make my point. When the team was 5-2 we were ranked top 5 in some power polls and everything was sunshine and lollypops. Even Jerry Sullivan was banging the drum for Fitz to get a new deal. No one said "watch out, they are about to collapse."

 

Which goes to show that the media (not John personally!!!) is like a rear view mirror. They are great at telling you what just happened. Not so great at what will happen.

 

Obviously John was waiting all these weeks to shove this back in my face. And all the trolls who had to go into hiding the first 8 weeks are out dancing in the streets. Good for all of you if this makes you happy. Just clean up after the circle jerk.

 

PTR

PTR:

you're kidding right?

first, you brought me into that thread by wondering if maybe i could provide everyone an explanation of why many of my colleagues were essentially lazy and blind. ...

"Maybe John Wawrow could tell us." -- you wrote.

 

so, essentially you're asking me to disparage my respected colleagues so you can get your kicks. ... righto. i'll get right on that.

 

and you then proceeded to go on some hell-bent rant on if "reporters" (i'm one of them) "all of you" you wrote "are so shocked by what you saw, what the f**k do you do all day?"

you then accused reporters of of falling behind "head gremlin Jerry Sullivan" for making our assessments.

 

later in the thread, you proceeded to remain high atop your horse in writing:

"What I want to know is why the guys paid to cover the team have no clue?"

 

later in another post, you wrote:

"But if you are a reporter and your job is to watch the Bills every day, and you come out every day and report the Bills are a crumbling disaster, how can anyone take you seriously after today? Are you saying its impossible to see any improvement, or is the local media so jaded by losing they dismiss anything the Bills do, good or bad, as crap?"

 

and then:

"Here's a question: We're they right because they knew something or we're they just guessing right? The Bills historically have been a poorly performing franchise. Predicting they will suck every year make you right more than wrong, but doesn't make you an expert. And that is my point. The local media stopped doing its job and just predicts "suck" every year. They have shown they are no more knowledgeable about the teams they cover than any of us."

 

and then after i chimed in and explained my views on the team, that i'm impressed but taking a wait-and-see approach, you came back and wrote:

"I'm glad you responded, but I'm still curious. What do you actually see when you cover the team and does it offer a glimpse into the direction of the team? I know you said you got burned on predictions before. Is it that hard to judge what you see outside of games?"

 

you then said it's probably your fault for singling out "Bills beat reporters," Before adding your beef is with those "who probably don't put the time into covering the Bills like you do."

 

well, Jerry covers the team as much as i do during the season. so do the TBN beat writers. ... and strangely enough, many of us came to the same conclusion that the Bills would have difficulty fielding a winning team this year. their thin depth was a big issue. still is.

 

yet, you proceed to shoot the messenger when the message doesn't fit your view.

and even when you're proven to have been off-base, you still proceed to accuse members of the media for being wrong even when it's evident they have been right.

 

which is it: are we all still blind hacks?

or is it now, we revel in the Bills losing?

 

and let's get this straight: i respect the hard-working members of the media on the Bills beat. so to ask me, in your utterly ham-handed way, to question any one of them takes a lot of gumption on your part.

 

now do you see why you made that thread personal?

 

jw

[Clippers of Nfl]

PTR:

you're kidding right?

first, you brought me into that thread by wondering if maybe i could provide everyone an explanation of why many of my colleagues were essentially lazy and blind. ...

"Maybe John Wawrow could tell us." -- you wrote.

 

so, essentially you're asking me to disparage my respected colleagues so you can get your kicks. ... righto. i'll get right on that.

 

and you then proceeded to go on some hell-bent rant on if "reporters" (i'm one of them) "all of you" you wrote "are so shocked by what you saw, what the f**k do you do all day?"

you then accused reporters of of falling behind "head gremlin Jerry Sullivan" for making our assessments.

 

later in the thread, you proceeded to remain high atop your horse in writing:

"What I want to know is why the guys paid to cover the team have no clue?"

 

later in another post, you wrote:

"But if you are a reporter and your job is to watch the Bills every day, and you come out every day and report the Bills are a crumbling disaster, how can anyone take you seriously after today? Are you saying its impossible to see any improvement, or is the local media so jaded by losing they dismiss anything the Bills do, good or bad, as crap?"

 

and then:

"Here's a question: We're they right because they knew something or we're they just guessing right? The Bills historically have been a poorly performing franchise. Predicting they will suck every year make you right more than wrong, but doesn't make you an expert. And that is my point. The local media stopped doing its job and just predicts "suck" every year. They have shown they are no more knowledgeable about the teams they cover than any of us."

 

and then after i chimed in and explained my views on the team, that i'm impressed but taking a wait-and-see approach, you came back and wrote:

"I'm glad you responded, but I'm still curious. What do you actually see when you cover the team and does it offer a glimpse into the direction of the team? I know you said you got burned on predictions before. Is it that hard to judge what you see outside of games?"

 

you then said it's probably your fault for singling out "Bills beat reporters," Before adding your beef is with those "who probably don't put the time into covering the Bills like you do."

 

well, Jerry covers the team as much as i do during the season. so do the TBN beat writers. ... and strangely enough, many of us came to the same conclusion that the Bills would have difficulty fielding a winning team this year. their thin depth was a big issue. still is.

 

yet, you proceed to shoot the messenger when the message doesn't fit your view.

and even when you're proven to have been off-base, you still proceed to accuse members of the media for being wrong even when it's evident they have been right.

 

which is it: are we all still blind hacks?

or is it now, we revel in the Bills losing?

 

and let's get this straight: i respect the hard-working members of the media on the Bills beat. so to ask me, in your utterly ham-handed way, to question any one of them takes a lot of gumption on your part.

 

now do you see why you made that thread personal?

 

jw

Who gives a crap what you took personal. dont come on a bills site and post your i told you bills were losers posts. that's how im taking it.

do you have a favorite team? wait, dont answer. i dont give

[John Cocktosten]

Who gives a crap what you took personal. dont come on a bills site and post your i told you bills were losers posts. that's how im taking it.

do you have a favorite team? wait, dont answer. i dont give

WAAAAAAA!!!!!!! You don't agree with me!

[Clippers of Nfl]

WAAAAAAA!!!!!!! You don't agree with me!

nah man. i actually like ptr. im also not going to lie. its funny to me when he gets bashed here. it happens once in a while.

[SDS]

 

 

now do you see why you made that thread personal?

 

jw

 

Not that my opinion matters here, but PTR's original post wasn't a one-off post. He beats the anti-media drum pretty fervently. The one in question was especially over-the-top offensive to anyone in the industry and it called John out by name. I have no problem with John bringing it up. John is a member of the community here and he has a right to respond.

 

I also appreciate PTR's response in that he said he owns those words. It seems to me a more level-headed criticism would not have evoked this response, but it is what it is.

 

If neither has a problem with it, then I don't see the problem either...

[Fan in San Diego]

PTR:

you're kidding right?

first, you brought me into that thread by wondering if maybe i could provide everyone an explanation of why many of my colleagues were essentially lazy and blind. ...

"Maybe John Wawrow could tell us." -- you wrote.

 

so, essentially you're asking me to disparage my respected colleagues so you can get your kicks. ... righto. i'll get right on that.

 

and you then proceeded to go on some hell-bent rant on if "reporters" (i'm one of them) "all of you" you wrote "are so shocked by what you saw, what the f**k do you do all day?"

you then accused reporters of of falling behind "head gremlin Jerry Sullivan" for making our assessments.

 

later in the thread, you proceeded to remain high atop your horse in writing:

"What I want to know is why the guys paid to cover the team have no clue?"

 

later in another post, you wrote:

"But if you are a reporter and your job is to watch the Bills every day, and you come out every day and report the Bills are a crumbling disaster, how can anyone take you seriously after today? Are you saying its impossible to see any improvement, or is the local media so jaded by losing they dismiss anything the Bills do, good or bad, as crap?"

 

and then:

"Here's a question: We're they right because they knew something or we're they just guessing right? The Bills historically have been a poorly performing franchise. Predicting they will suck every year make you right more than wrong, but doesn't make you an expert. And that is my point. The local media stopped doing its job and just predicts "suck" every year. They have shown they are no more knowledgeable about the teams they cover than any of us."

 

and then after i chimed in and explained my views on the team, that i'm impressed but taking a wait-and-see approach, you came back and wrote:

"I'm glad you responded, but I'm still curious. What do you actually see when you cover the team and does it offer a glimpse into the direction of the team? I know you said you got burned on predictions before. Is it that hard to judge what you see outside of games?"

 

you then said it's probably your fault for singling out "Bills beat reporters," Before adding your beef is with those "who probably don't put the time into covering the Bills like you do."

 

well, Jerry covers the team as much as i do during the season. so do the TBN beat writers. ... and strangely enough, many of us came to the same conclusion that the Bills would have difficulty fielding a winning team this year. their thin depth was a big issue. still is.

 

yet, you proceed to shoot the messenger when the message doesn't fit your view.

and even when you're proven to have been off-base, you still proceed to accuse members of the media for being wrong even when it's evident they have been right.

 

which is it: are we all still blind hacks?

or is it now, we revel in the Bills losing?

 

and let's get this straight: i respect the hard-working members of the media on the Bills beat. so to ask me, in your utterly ham-handed way, to question any one of them takes a lot of gumption on your part.

 

now do you see why you made that thread personal?

 

jw

 

Hi John

 

I'm glad you post on this board. I wouldn't recommend getting into discussion with agitated posters, you can't win no matter what. You just get dragged down into the mud with them. Let it go.

 

Fan in San Diego

[vincec]

Hi John

 

I'm glad you post on this board. I wouldn't recommend getting into discussion with agitated posters, you can't win no matter what. You just get dragged down into the mud with them. Let it go.

 

Fan in San Diego

"get dragged down into the mud"??? What are you talking about? jw STARTED this thread for the noble cause of trying to get revenge. He wasn't "dragged" into it.

[Fan in San Diego]

"get dragged down into the mud"??? What are you talking about? jw STARTED this thread for the noble cause of trying to get revenge. He wasn't "dragged" into it.

 

I didn't want to read this whole thread because it gets tedious, but it is at the mud level now and should probably be terminated.

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

Isn't that the truth. When they were 2-0 I actually went on this board and said they could "squeak out 8 or 9 wins." I'll never learn.

Buck up, they could still go 7-9. Just like old times.

[Fan in San Diego]

Buck up, they could still go 7-9. Just like old times.

Optimistic!

[jwolf02]

You know, PTR probably came off a little strong in the original post, but even reading it today, I don't think he was wrong. Wrong for how he said it - maybe - but he's right.

 

We were clearly much more talented and a better team before the injuries than anyone gave us credit for before the season. Hell - Vegas knew it before our local media knew it. That KC line moved 5.5 points in 36 hours. There were a few - Prisco, Peter King IIRC - who came to camp and said "Hey - you better watch out for these guys. There's something there." So maybe, it's not that jw, Tim Graham, Sully, etc are not doing anything all day - it's just that they're not football guys. Or at least on the same level as others.

 

Now, I don't think saying "I told you so" now makes near as much sense in the moment as PTR's main point did... because - like it or not - we've got double digits on IR and we've played two playoff contenders within a TD the last two weeks. Has it been ugly? Sure. But I think we've exceeded expectations from before the season already.

 

JW's in a tough spot because he IMO seems to be a pretty objective guy most of the time. So he gets stuck between the half-full guys like PTR and then when spirits get up, the half-empty guys like billsfreak probably don't agree with what he says.

 

Who's right? Who knows. Probably some truth on both sides. I'm sure it's the same with PTR and JW.

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

Optimistic!

Actually I think we can beat both Miami and Denver at home. "Can" not "will".

[SDS]

Wrong for how he said it - maybe...

 

but maybe that's the issue...

[Ozymandius]

You know, PTR probably came off a little strong in the original post, but even reading it today, I don't think he was wrong. Wrong for how he said it - maybe - but he's right.

 

Nah, PTR's post was idiotic. A reporter's job is to accurately report team news, NOT accurately predict how good or bad the team is. JW could have predicted 16-0 or 0-16 and I wouldn't have thought any more or less of him as long as he gave us accurate, timely news about the team and accurate, timely quotes from the coaches and players.

 

Do you really think, for example, that the Rams beat reporters knew in preseason of 1999 that the Rams would be Super Bowl contenders? That backup Kurt Warner was an MVP candidate? That if the beat reporters somehow didn't know these things, they were being lazy and not doing their jobs?

 

Honestly, only a complete idiot like PTR could conclude that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Not that my opinion matters here, but PTR's original post wasn't a one-off post. He beats the anti-media drum pretty fervently. The one in question was especially over-the-top offensive to anyone in the industry and it called John out by name. I have no problem with John bringing it up. John is a member of the community here and he has a right to respond.

 

I also appreciate PTR's response in that he said he owns those words. It seems to me a more level-headed criticism would not have evoked this response, but it is what it is.

 

If neither has a problem with it, then I don't see the problem either...

 

Scott, I respect you a lot...in all honesty, if one of the rest of us peons dredged up a post of, let's say, John Wawrows, that was months old, to specifically take a shot at him for being wrong

 

..........would that be OK with you, or would it result in the peon-in-question getting some kind of discipline from a mod?

 

I'm just asking for some clarity on acceptable behavior here (not the original critical post, or the original response to it, but the part about bringing it up again months after the fact).