Chan Gailey's Future

[Orton's Arm]

Suddenly my optimism just took a big hit. I think you are probably closer to being correct than I wanted to believe. We could debate some of the positions, such as left tackle. Right now there are is a pretty good one who is injury prone, and a rookie that may or may not turn out to be ok. In that case it may be drafting for depth. But I agree that defensive end and cornerback are probably bigger needs than I wanted to admit, especially if McGee is a lost cause. And I don't know what to think about receiver. If there is a beast available, then he should be taken. If it is just another late round flier, then what's the point, the whole receiver corps is late round fliers (or undrafted).

Just to add to your lack of optimism: the post to which you responded was accurate, but didn't go far enough. The Bills' biggest need isn't at any of the positions he mentioned. It's at quarterback. I'm not saying that Fitz is chopped liver: in fact he's decent. But unless your defense is as good as the Ravens of 2000's defense, "decent" at the quarterback position won't get you very many Super Bowl wins.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Edwards' Arm

[JerseyBills]

I think in the beginning of the season, Gailey was a COTY candidate, but now OUR Bills are on a downward spiral. Listen I know we have less talent than 30 other teams in the league right now, but I have not seen Chan adjust his game-plan to fool other defenses, and the George Edwards hiring should automatically put him on a very tiny hot seat. I was never really a fan of his due to his failure to have elite teams at GT (Usually had a Top 25 recruiting class year in/out) and failure to go deep in the playoffs with a stacked Dallas team (Aikman, Smith, and Irvin (1 year)). I'm not saying fire him this year, but next year if he gets of to a slow start a la Dick Jauron should we fire him. I mean he is 60, so he could retire soon. So what do you guys think.

Food for thought. I personally like Gailey and everything he is about as a coach, but I'm beginning to worry that he is unable to adjust his game plans too. Its obvious he needs to open it up or tweak something, and we haven't seen that. I am fine with giving him at least another year , but if we don't see improvement by next year he might not make it. Were a starved fan base, we deserve a winning team and product on the football field after all these years of disappointments

[jahnyc]

I did not mention QB in my list of needs because there are so many needs and the ones I listed I thought were the most immediate. You may be right about Fitz, but I think he can be better assessed with an improved line and much stronger wide receivers. Clearly, his accuracy is a concern.

 

Our improvement overall (i.e., balancing our start with our recent poor performance) has been incremental. I do not think we will be playoff contenders next year if we continue at this pace of improvement. I understand that people want instant gratification, but expecting success after three years is not unreasonable.

[Cynical]

The O line is in shambles because this offensive minded HC decided to switch to a 3-4 and then drafted heavily for the defense the last two years, while basically ignoring the O line.

 

Actually they drafted D heavily this year. Last year, the Bills had 8 draft picks. 4 went on the defensive side of the ball, and 4 went on the offensive side of the ball.

But more on that in a moment.

 

So if the line is in shambles who's fault is that.... the HC & GM, that's who's fault it is!!. This team went into the season with no backup at center, they had one in Geoff Hangartner but cut him. They went into the season with one experienced LT who has always been injured and a rookie as his only backup, who's fault is that?

 

Both Nix and Gailey KNEW they needed upgrades on the line, its why they went after Tyson Clybo in the off season, these two old fools made their bed and are most certainly responsible for the lack of depth on that line.

 

You are correct. They are responsible for the lack of depth on the Oline.

But Nix/Chan cannot fix everything in 1-2 seasons that Jauron spent 4 years ripping apart. This cannot be stated enough.

 

Dick Jauron was most certainly an offensive moron and his Tampa 2 defense was always bad against the run! However, as bad as he was he had the pass defense in the top 5 his last two years with the team, and got the team to 7-9.

 

Top 5 pass defense his last 2 years? Based on what criteria?

According to the NFL, the Bills pass D from 2010 to 2006 was ranked as follows:

2010 - 3 (Chan's first year)

2009 - 2 (Jauron's last year w/ Fewell)

2008 - 13

2007 - 29

2006 - 7

 

As for the 7-9, you do realize one of those years happened when the Bills ended up with the 2nd easy schedule in the NFL!

 

As bad as Jauron's defense against the run was, Gaileys defense set a Buffalo Bills record last season for the worst ever in team history. they might just be setting new records for bad again this year. BTW 7-9 is something Gailey has yet to achieve, and right now its looking like this season might be a 5-11 disaster with an horrific downturn after starting 5-2.

 

And Jauron's 2007 team was the worst offense in team history. His 2008 and 2009 teams were not much better.

 

The man already had 2 years and its not looking to good right now, bad drafts, bad free agency, bad teams

 

1.) Chan has not had 2 years "already". We are still in his second year.

 

Before I start up on the drafts, let me re-state something:

Nix/Chan cannot fix everything in 1-2 seasons that Jauron spent 4 years ripping apart.

When Nix/Chan took over, the foundation of players they had to build with are players Jauron spent the previous 4 years acquiring.

You want to see bad drafting? Here's bad drafting:

 

In 4 years of drafting, Jauron spent 19 picks on D, and 14 on O.

 

Defensively, 10 were DB, 4 were LB, and 5 were DL.

Offensively, 6 were OL, 5 were WR/TE, 1 QB, and 3 RB.

Just absorb those numbers for a second. 10 DB out of 19 picks.

One of the 4 LB taken was projected to play as a DB at the NFL level

Of the 6 OL taken, only 2, Wood and Levitre, were taken in the first 3 rounds. None of the other 4 were taken before the 5th round.

Out of the 2006 draft, only 1 player remains, nobody from the first 3 rounds

Out of the 2007 draft, none of the players the Bills drafted remain on the team.

2008 - 4 players remain, only 1 from the first 3 rounds remains.

 

From 2006-2009, they Bills had;

6 first round picks (2 remain, Wood & McKelvin)

4 second round picks (2 remain, Levitre & Byrd)

3 third round picks (0 remain)

 

This is the current Bills foundation as left by Jauron.

Yet, people wonder why Nix/Chan haven't "fixed" everything in 2 years.

[NastyMan]

Ummm... I was just sharing my opinion, no need to get all mad-like on me.

I have to agree with Cynical here. We fire to many coaches to soon. I for one think we should have never fired Phillips he was building us a winner. But what is done is done. Chan will be alright and we need to give him at least another 2 years. We need stability here not a coaching hot seat. Chan shouldn't and can't worry about his job now.

[1billsfan]

I have to agree with Cynical here. We fire to many coaches to soon. I for one think we should have never fired Phillips he was building us a winner. But what is done is done. Chan will be alright and we need to give him at least another 2 years. We need stability here not a coaching hot seat. Chan shouldn't and can't worry about his job now.

 

Was Williams fired too soon? Jauron? With regards to Phillips, what has he ever done in this league to not justify the Bills firing him? Seriously.

 

The problem is that the Bills are picking the wrong guys. They aren't picking head coaching material, they're picking coordinator types who think they're head coaching material and who'll take the job because it's the only team who will hire them.

 

The Bills had a good young head coach and let him go in Perry Fewell. NFL players need a younger guy who know how they tick and will push their buttons. The Bills are picking cerebral guys who think the players will motivate themselves individually. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it today. Just look at what Jim Harbaugh has done with his team. Jim Harbaugh is today's standard bearer for who and what players want in their head coach. A guy who is passionate and wants it just as much as the guys on the field.

 

I think that if Gailey's team doesn't show some fight in this last half of the season, the Bills should fire him immediately and hire back Fewell. This young guy who's full of passion would be the perfect fit for our young team. He's coming back from a couple of years in the Giant organization who know about what it takes to win Superbowls. It hurts to say it, but Gailey is just too old school and too cerebral.

[8-8 Forever?]

I think you need to find another hobby as it seems you have some extra free time on your hands.

 

You state this:

"Listen I know we have less talent than 30 other teams in the league..."

 

followed by this:

"... I have not seen Chan adjust his game-plan to fool other defenses"

 

Even though the Bills have less talent than 30 other teams, you still expect Chan to scheme his way out of it.

The Oline is in shambles, and we have no depth. The Dallas game speaks for itself. In the first 3 plays, the right side defensive pass rusher came in untouched twice.

Please show me a scheme that will overcome that, and with less talent than 30 other teams.

 

Then you complain about his "failure" to have elite teams at GT. Personally, I thought most people realized the college game and the pro game were 2 different animals.

My mistake.

 

Success/Failure in one does not automatically equate to success/failure in the other. If it did, Saban would still be coaching the Dolphins, and Weis would still be at ND.

 

Then you bring up the "stacked" Dallas teams he had, completely ignoring the reality those players were on the downside of the careers, the Cowboys failed to make the playoffs the year before his arrival, and failed to make the playoffs after he left. During his tenure, they made the playoffs both times, and did so with an owner who is far more meddlesome than Wilson.

 

Jauron spent 4 offseason's destroying the Bills organization by building a team that was undersized, soft, and convinced it was hard to win in the NFL.

 

After this season, Chan gets 2 more years.

At least. No more revolving door. New coach means all new coordinators, new schemes , then you have the wrong players for the those schemes, then you have to rebuild the entire roster to fit the coaches new schemes, blah, blah blah ... no more. Just stick with the guys you have. They are trying hard , the players are trying hard. Just not enough of them with all the injuries.

[JTO]

Chan is a great coach. However every season the Coach, GM should make adjustments where needed. Both on the coaching side as well as players. If changes aren't made then yes, Chan, Nix and Co should leave. Be patient, changes will be made. I suspect that Edwards will not be back if we don't make the playoffs this year.

Edited November 27, 2011 by JTO

[Coach Tuesday]

This is very simple to me - fire the D coordinator and find a capable replacement. If Chan doesn't/won't do that, he's cooked. If he does, and he hires the right guy (or promotes Wanny perhaps), his career is fixable. The reason Chan's playcalling has looked so inept the last 3 weeks is that the D has been abused early and often, forcing Chan to try to catch up. It's all about the defense folks. Injuries are not the issue.

[Rob T from OP]

I think in the beginning of the season, Gailey was a COTY candidate, but now OUR Bills are on a downward spiral. Listen I know we have less talent than 30 other teams in the league right now, but I have not seen Chan adjust his game-plan to fool other defenses, and the George Edwards hiring should automatically put him on a very tiny hot seat. I was never really a fan of his due to his failure to have elite teams at GT (Usually had a Top 25 recruiting class year in/out) and failure to go deep in the playoffs with a stacked Dallas team (Aikman, Smith, and Irvin (1 year)). I'm not saying fire him this year, but next year if he gets of to a slow start a la Dick Jauron should we fire him. I mean he is 60, so he could retire soon. So what do you guys think.

 

 

I believe the Bills need to give him at least one more year. The team will never emerge if the coaching staff is in constant flux. This team is suffering from a decade of terrible drafts and is being rebuilt from the ground up. Another draft and see if Wilson will open the purse strings to bring some free agents in to add depth. Gailey does need to step up to the plate and get a new defensive coordinator.

This year is difficut to evaluate because the lockout has effected all teams in a different way.The Bills's depth issue is with young players and lack of reps.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Rob T from OP

[Orton's Arm]

I did not mention QB in my list of needs because there are so many needs and the ones I listed I thought were the most immediate. You may be right about Fitz, but I think he can be better assessed with an improved line and much stronger wide receivers. Clearly, his accuracy is a concern.

 

Our improvement overall (i.e., balancing our start with our recent poor performance) has been incremental. I do not think we will be playoff contenders next year if we continue at this pace of improvement. I understand that people want instant gratification, but expecting success after three years is not unreasonable.

I think that you and I are more or less on the same page. I'd agree that the needs you listed are more immediate than the need for an upgrade at quarterback.

 

But--and I know I'm taking a contrarian view here--I'd argue that the time to take a quarterback is when many of your other needs aren't yet filled. That's when you'll have the highest possible draft pick, and the best possible shot at getting The Guy. If you wait until your other needs are filled first, your draft position will probably be in the late teens or early 20s by the time you get around to trying to find your quarterback. Franchise quarterbacks can be found in that area of the draft--witness Aaron Rodgers--but it's less common to see a franchise guy taken there than with a top-5 pick.

 

As for Fitz, it's not like he's some unknown quantity who's going into his very first season in the NFL. He's been around long enough to accumulate a substantial body of work by which he can be judged. With the exception of his first few games of the season, nothing about that body of work remotely suggests he might be a franchise quarterback. Those first few games were the result of exploiting extremely poor pass defenses--defenses which hadn't yet learned to adapt to the style of offense Gailey had employed. Even in those games Fitz did not seem to have above-normal passing accuracy. The throws he was asked to make were almost always easy ones; and even then a few of them were off. What made his performance in those games special was his ability to quickly identify the right target, and to get the ball to him in a hurry. For a while, Gailey's offense with Fitz at quarterback seemed like it could produce outstanding results, even though Fitz never displayed more than run of the mill accuracy at best. But starting with the Cincinnati game, defenses learned to stymie this kind of attack.

 

I realize that Fitz is probably a 4 out of 10 as a QB, and that it may be tempting to begin upgrades with players that are 1s and 2s. But I'd argue that upgrading a quarterback from a 4 to an 8 would have a very significant impact, especially over the long-term. If you don't have a franchise quarterback, and if there's one available to be taken, you take him. Period. Opportunities to find franchise quarterbacks are very rare. A team which squanders even one such opportunity will typically pay a high price for many years to come.

[Dorkington]

If we aren't in late season contention for the playoffs next year, I think it's time to look elsewhere.

[BillsNeedaQBin2012]

I have to agree with Cynical here. We fire to many coaches to soon. I for one think we should have never fired Phillips he was building us a winner. But what is done is done. Chan will be alright and we need to give him at least another 2 years. We need stability here not a coaching hot seat. Chan shouldn't and can't worry about his job now.

I was just asking what other people thought, but Cynical basically calls me a dumb@#$.

[Orton's Arm]

I was just asking what other people thought, but Cynical basically calls me a dumb@#$.

My sense is that Cynical is an INTJ. If I'm right about that, it means that he's a) intellectually rigorous, and b) typically more focused on the cerebral part of any given discussion than on the social aspect. His focus was likely not on you so much as it was on eliminating what he saw as ill-considered and inaccurate opinions. INTJs will typically praise what they feel are accurate opinions, and demonstrate the flaws of what they feel are inaccurate opinions, regardless of the source of the respective opinions. Their objective is to demolish inaccurate ways of thinking, while promoting intellectually rigorous and accurate alternatives. Don't take it personally.

 

The best way to get along with INTJs is to do the following: 1) Try to avoid giving unsupported opinions. Explain why you believe what you believe. A good way to earn an INTJ's respect is to demonstrate an intellectually rigorous thought process. 2) Where possible, try to avoid becoming personally invested in particular opinions. If you think of something as your opinion, then an attack on that opinion will seem a lot like an attack on you. INTJs aren't shy about attacking what they see as incorrect opinions, so becoming too attached to your opinions will, sooner or later, cause you to feel personally attacked. 3) Always be ready to abandon an opinion if new evidence or a new thought process is brought to the discussion.

 

Your reasons for being here are probably very different from Cynical's reasons. My sense is that you're here because you want to shoot the breeze, engage in friendly conversation, perhaps make a friend or two, stuff like that. Unless I'm mistaken, Cynical's reason for being here is because he sees intellectual rigor as a fun challenge and an end in itself, and sees it as a form of mental exercise akin to physical exercise. The difference is every bit as big as the difference between someone out for a casual jog and someone training for an Olympic marathon. Both you and he have perfectly legitimate reasons for being here.

[BillsNeedaQBin2012]

My sense is that Cynical is an INTJ. If I'm right about that, it means that he's a) intellectually rigorous, and b) typically more focused on the cerebral part of any given discussion than on the social aspect. His focus was likely not on you so much as it was on eliminating what he saw as ill-considered and inaccurate opinions. INTJs will typically praise what they feel are accurate opinions, and demonstrate the flaws of what they feel are inaccurate opinions, regardless of the source of the respective opinions. Their objective is to demolish inaccurate ways of thinking, while promoting intellectually rigorous and accurate alternatives. Don't take it personally.

 

The best way to get along with INTJs is to do the following: 1) Try to avoid giving unsupported opinions. Explain why you believe what you believe. A good way to earn an INTJ's respect is to demonstrate an intellectually rigorous thought process. 2) Where possible, try to avoid becoming personally invested in particular opinions. If you think of something as your opinion, then an attack on that opinion will seem a lot like an attack on you. INTJs aren't shy about attacking what they see as incorrect opinions, so becoming too attached to your opinions will, sooner or later, cause you to feel personally attacked. 3) Always be ready to abandon an opinion if new evidence or a new thought process is brought to the discussion.

 

Your reasons for being here are probably very different from Cynical's reasons. My sense is that you're here because you want to shoot the breeze, engage in friendly conversation, perhaps make a friend or two, stuff like that. Unless I'm mistaken, Cynical's reason for being here is because he sees intellectual rigor as a fun challenge and an end in itself, and sees it as a form of mental exercise akin to physical exercise. The difference is every bit as big as the difference between someone out for a casual jog and someone training for an Olympic marathon. Both you and he have perfectly legitimate reasons for being here.

You just blew me away...LOL.

[The Senator]

14 and 5 baby!!!!

GO BILLSSS!!!!

 

"I expect to win." - Chan Gailey

 

[vorpma]

As painful as it would be, clean house throughout the entire organization and bring in a proven GM, then start from scratch.

[Cynical]

I was just asking what other people thought, but Cynical basically calls me a dumb@#$.

 

 

If I wanted to call you a dumbass, I would have called you a dumbass.

 

A bit of advice: I do not know how long you have been reading this board before you decided to join and post, but for the next couple of months, you might consider lurking more and posting less. This will help you get an understanding/feel/sense of the different posters on the board. That way, the next time somebody disagrees with your opinion, you will not take it so personal.

 

Or, as it was put to me when I first joined (to paraphrase and minus the swearing) - get a thicker skin or you won't last long.

[BillsNeedaQBin2012]

 

If I wanted to call you a dumbass, I would have called you a dumbass.

 

A bit of advice: I do not know how long you have been reading this board before you decided to join and post, but for the next couple of months, you might consider lurking more and posting less. This will help you get an understanding/feel/sense of the different posters on the board. That way, the next time somebody disagrees with your opinion, you will not take it so personal.

 

Or, as it was put to me when I first joined (to paraphrase and minus the swearing) - get a thicker skin or you won't last long.

It just seems like you didn't like my opinion, but the way you said it was very rude...that is all.

[Cynical]

My sense is that Cynical is an INTJ.

 

Damn! Last time I tested, I was classified as an ISTP with leanings towards an INTJ. Given that test was nearly 10 years ago, you could bloody well be right.

Kudos.

Background in psych?

 

If I'm right about that, it means that he's a) intellectually rigorous, and b) typically more focused on the cerebral part of any given discussion than on the social aspect. His focus was likely not on you so much as it was on eliminating what he saw as ill-considered and inaccurate opinions. INTJs will typically praise what they feel are accurate opinions, and demonstrate the flaws of what they feel are inaccurate opinions, regardless of the source of the respective opinions. Their objective is to demolish inaccurate ways of thinking, while promoting intellectually rigorous and accurate alternatives. Don't take it personally.

 

The best way to get along with INTJs is to do the following: 1) Try to avoid giving unsupported opinions. Explain why you believe what you believe. A good way to earn an INTJ's respect is to demonstrate an intellectually rigorous thought process. 2) Where possible, try to avoid becoming personally invested in particular opinions. If you think of something as your opinion, then an attack on that opinion will seem a lot like an attack on you. INTJs aren't shy about attacking what they see as incorrect opinions, so becoming too attached to your opinions will, sooner or later, cause you to feel personally attacked. 3) Always be ready to abandon an opinion if new evidence or a new thought process is brought to the discussion.

 

Your reasons for being here are probably very different from Cynical's reasons. My sense is that you're here because you want to shoot the breeze, engage in friendly conversation, perhaps make a friend or two, stuff like that. Unless I'm mistaken, Cynical's reason for being here is because he sees intellectual rigor as a fun challenge and an end in itself, and sees it as a form of mental exercise akin to physical exercise.

 

Wow. And I thought I was here because I was former WNYer looking for others to talk about the Bills. Good or bad, it doesn't matter. I just want to partake in conversations and read others opinions regarding the Bills. I sure as hell don't come here, the "retard rodeo", because I find it a "challenge" or for the "mental exercise".